The Top 30 Players in the NHL (2018 Edition) - #14

[Brando]

Top 30 Players in the NHL

1. Connor McDavid
2. Sidney Crosby
3. Alexander Ovechkin
4. Evgeni Malkin
5. Erik Karlsson
6. Nikita Kucherov
7. Victor Hedman
8. Drew Doughty
9. Nathan MacKinnon
10. Patrice Bergeron
11. Patrick Kane
12. Anze Kopitar
13. Taylor Hall

Pick someone you'd like me to add to the poll as well when you vote (including goalies).
If people are interested I may go up to 50.

Adds:
0 Giordano
1 Tarasenko
0 Pastrnak
0 Provorov
0 Nylander
2 Getzlaf
0 Laine
0 Kessel
0 Klingberg
0 Marner
1 Draisaitl
0 Holtby
1 Josi
2 Jones
0 Gibson
0 Lundqvist
0 Rinne
0 Crawford
1 Backstrom

Click to read more...

 

[StoneHands]

Giroux again. Guy puts up a 100 point season and might not be a top 15 forward? Ok.

 

[blinds]

Are people seriously rating Tavares above Giroux? Giroux scores more and is way better away from the puck. I don't see any argument for Tavares.

 

[Critical13]

Are people seriously rating Tavares above Giroux? Giroux scores more and is way better away from the puck. I don't see any argument for Tavares.

Tavares PPG since 2013 - 0.98
Giroux PPG since 2013 - 0.95

Tavares CF% rel - 50.9
Giroux CF% rel - 52.3

They seem pretty close to me, and Tavares still plays C. Let's see how they do with John finally being on a quality team.

It's funny because it's so easy to look up these stats, and yet people just keep making these claims without taking 2 minutes to check on them.

 

[blinds]

Tavares PPG since 2013 - 0.98
Giroux PPG since 2013 - 0.95

Tavares CF% rel - 50.9
Giroux CF% rel - 52.3

They seem pretty close to me, and Tavares still plays C. Let's see how they do with John finally being on a quality team.

It's funny because it's so easy to look up these stats, and yet people just keep making these claims without taking 2 minutes to check on them.

Those are convenient for Tavares (especially the cutoff year), but doesn't change the fact that he's never scored more than 86 points in a season while Giroux put up 93 in 77 GP (right before your convenient cutoff) and just put up 102. He also has another season tying Tavares's career high where he was a Hart finalist. Besides, Tavares doesn't get credit for just playing C, Giroux is much better defensively and at faceoffs. Tavares is a one dimensional forward who gets easy zone starts. Giroux is not and still puts up better numbers.

The way Marchand has been playing lately, I can understand putting him over Giroux. Tavares, though, is worse at everything but goal scoring and is still just getting by on hype (and a bigger fanbase behind him now).

 

[Critical13]

Those are convenient for Tavares (especially the cutoff year), but doesn't change the fact that he's never scored more than 86 points in a season while Giroux put up 93 in 77 GP (right before your convenient cutoff) and just put up 102. Besides, Tavares doesn't get credit for just playing C, Giroux is much better defensively and at faceoffs. Tavares is a one dimensional forward who gets easy zone starts. Giroux is not and still puts up better numbers.

The way Marchand has been playing lately, I can understand putting him over Giroux. Tavares, though, is worse at everything but goal scoring and is still just getting by on hype (and a bigger fanbase behind him now).

Convenient cutoff? It's 5 years, seems like a reasonable number. I just scrolled up a few years on NHL's stats page and said to sum. Regardless, we're talking a tiny gap, despite Giroux playing for some much better teams in that time frame.

Let's see how Tavares does this season with a better team. I think he will open a large gap beween him and Giroux, personally.

 

[1967th Heaven]

Curious when the next dman will go and who it'll be. Seems like Karlsson, Doughty and Hedman are kinda in their own tier based on voters here

 

[blinds]

Convenient cutoff? It's 5 years, seems like a reasonable number. I just scrolled up a few years on NHL's stats page and said to sum. Regardless, we're talking a tiny gap, despite Giroux playing for some much better teams in that time frame.

Let's see how Tavares does this season with a better team. I think he will open a large gap beween him and Giroux, personally.

You think the Flyers were much better than the Islanders over the past 5 years?? The standings would suggest otherwise.

5 years seems reasonable out of context, but in context you're excluding the previous year where Giroux scored at a 1.21 PPG clip compared to Tavares at a .99 PPG pace which is the biggest separation they've had until this past season.

 

[goblin3]

Barkov.

 

[Silky mitts]

I believe the Islanders will miss Tavares more than the Flyers would miss Giroux.
Tavares, add Seth Jones.

 

[bobholly39]

Carey Price
I get the contract is fun to make fun of, and that he had a horrible season.

I expect that by year end a majority of HF will label him a top 5-10 player in the league again. He's going to rebound.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Those are convenient for Tavares (especially the cutoff year), but doesn't change the fact that he's never scored more than 86 points in a season while Giroux put up 93 in 77 GP (right before your convenient cutoff) and just put up 102. He also has another season tying Tavares's career high where he was a Hart finalist. Besides, Tavares doesn't get credit for just playing C, Giroux is much better defensively and at faceoffs. Tavares is a one dimensional forward who gets easy zone starts. Giroux is not and still puts up better numbers.

The way Marchand has been playing lately, I can understand putting him over Giroux. Tavares, though, is worse at everything but goal scoring and is still just getting by on hype (and a bigger fanbase behind him now).

Agreed. I don’t think what a player did 5 years ago is all that relevant. I’d probably look at three year averages or some sort of weighted system that weighs recent seasons more heavily.
I went Giroux here and as much as it pains me Marchand after that.

 

[Critical13]

You think the Flyers were much better than the Islanders over the past 5 years?? The standings would suggest otherwise.

5 years seems reasonable out of context, but in context you're excluding the previous year where Giroux scored at a 1.21 PPG clip compared to Tavares at a .99 PPG pace which is the biggest separation they've had until this past season.

Okay, so how about we just do their careers:

Tavares: 0.89 2.7 CF% rel
Giroux: 0.88 2.5 CF% rel

Listen, I am not trying to put down Giroux. However, to say one is the better offensive player and much better defensively is just a lie. They are very close, with a big deciding factor for me moving forward being that Tavares is still putting up these numbers as a C. These two have had very comparable careers.

The point is that it's very easy to make a statement like was made in this thread, but it's far more impressive if you actually back it up.

Agreed. I don’t think what a player did 5 years ago is all that relevant. I’d probably look at three year averages or some sort of weighted system that weighs recent seasons more heavily.
I went Giroux here and as much as it pains me Marchand after that.

Trust me, we wouldn't expect any less from you.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Okay, so how about we just do their careers:

Tavares: 0.89 2.7 CF% rel
Giroux: 0.88 2.5 CF% rel

Listen, I am not trying to put down Giroux. However, to say one is the better offensive player and much better defensively is just a lie. They are very close, with a big deciding factor for me moving forward being that Tavares is still putting up these numbers as a C. These two have had very comparable careers.

The point is that it's very easy to make a statement like was made in this thread, but it's far more impressive if you actually back it up.



Trust me, we wouldn't expect any less from you.

Lol! Oh the irony coming from you.
I guess saying the most recent seasons are more relevant makes me a Leaf hater.
I think most reasonable people would agree that the last three seasons are more relevant than the career averages. But hey cherry pick whatever stats let you sleep at night. Both are really good players and should be close in the poll.

 

[Critical13]

Lol! Oh the irony coming from you.
I guess saying the most recent seasons are more relevant makes me a Leaf hater.

Oh no, it's a valid method (although it ignores things like context), it's just you've earned a reputation by instigating with Leaf fans in every single possible thread, so I am not surprised to see you chiming in.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Oh no, it's a valid method (although it ignores things like context), it's just you've earned a reputation by instigating with Leaf fans in every single possible thread, so I am not surprised to see you chiming in.

And you have a reputation as one of the biggest Leaf ‘supporters’ in every thread so I’m not surprised to see you criticizing someone for using what you admit is a valid method.
Criticize the content not the poster.
That’s the whole purpose of the main board.

 

[lakai17]

add Backstrom.

 

[CanadianSniper]

Giroux. Dude finished 2nd in points with 102 behind only McDavid and still cant get any respect.

 

[LuGBuG]

Add Getzlaf

 

[Critical13]

And you have a reputation as one of the biggest Leaf ‘supporters’ in every thread so I’m not surprised to see you criticizing someone for using what you admit is a valid method.
Criticize the content not the poster.
That’s the whole purpose of the main board.

I bring numbers to my arguments, at least, instead of blind hate/love.

Here's my attempt at a weighted average. This one weights the season S 40%, S-1 35% and S-2 25%.

About a point difference.

Here's one that more heavily weights the last season:

About a 5 point difference.

To me, if you combine these with the fact that Tavares plays C, that he scores more goals (debatable that this matters), and that their A1/60 are about the same career wise, I would say these players are very close, and that linemates and zone starts would account for much of the discrepancies.

If you take into account that Tavares is 27 and Giroux is 30, the valuation of the two moving forward is either dead on, or slightly favouring the younger player playing C.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Critical:
‘I bring numbers to my arguments, at least, instead of blind hate/love.’

First thanks for doing the research. This confirms what I though which is that it is close but Giroux is the better player. That is what I expected.
My argument that Giroux is the slightly better player is supported by the statistics not blind love/ hate.

 

[Critical13]

First thanks for doing the research. This confirms what I thought which is that it is close but Giroux is the better player. That is what I expected.

So does position, zone starts and line mates mean nothing to you?

I will enjoy revisiting this later this year, I think.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

So does position, zone starts and line mates mean nothing to you?

I will enjoy revisiting this later this year, I think.

Of course context matters. But in this case I think you’re only looking at the factors that favour your original choice. Line mates can certainly be argued both ways for example.
Given the large disparity in points last season I’m pretty confident that revisiting this in a year will be pretty much the same result. 18 points is a pretty big gap to close.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Are people seriously rating Tavares above Giroux? Giroux scores more and is way better away from the puck. I don't see any argument for Tavares.

Same reason William Nylander is on the add list...

 

[The Moose is Loose]

Stamkos

Add Draisaitl