The Top 20 Red Wings of All-Time, #5

[waltdetroit]

Of all the hanging jersey's only the Captain & Del stayed there whole career, so while that's a great point, all of the others were traded, had probs with mgmt, or released in some way. I love Ted too. But I feel Feds had as much to do with the wings breaking the Cup Draught as anyone. (Side Note - I was a BIG Ullman fan and was disappointed that he was traded not Del. Probably affected my voting)

 

[KJoe88]

Well, not sure if individual achievements or contributions count?

Selke, Pearson, and the Hart all in the same year. Six (seven?) time all-star appearences. 4th among Red Wings players all-time in offensive categories (most anyways). Part of the Russian Five. Third all-time in 20P+ playoff scoring. Dude had 1,180P - that is substantial considering who he played with.

He did have the Fedorov Foundation for children in the Detroit area, which I didn't know existed, so that's pretty cool. Yes, saw this when I looked up his stats.

As for the contract disputes. To me, if I was as good as him (imo, he is still the most well-rounded hockey player I've seen play - the ability to play as foward or defensemen is amazing) I would've commanded a lot of money too. IIRC management also kind of low-balled him the first couple of contracts. I'm not sure where I read that, though it could've been false. Either way I don't have ill will towards him because of those issues. Some might consider that selfish, however I don't. He contributed a crap ton to the organization, and imo (raises shield) his number should be retired.

My favorite things about him were his goal celebrations and how he ALWAYS smiled like a little kid, lol. As a kid I found it awesome everytime - he made me fall in love even moreso with the Wings. And of course the 'white skates', which even further prolonged his greatness.

The kind of player that he was alone makes him a contender as one of the greatest Wings, in my view. Despite the number of goals Ovi has, I don't even think he's nearly as valuable as Feds. Fedorov is the greatest Russian to ever play in the NHL.

Edit: Cool little things as well is that he's only behind Stevie Y for most GWG amd SHP.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Well, not sure if individual achievements or contributions count?

Selke, Pearson, and the Hart all in the same year. Six (seven?) time all-star appearences. 4th among Red Wings players all-time in offensive categories (most anyways). Part of the Russian Five. Third all-time in 20P+ playoff scoring. Dude had 1,180P - that is substantial considering who he played with.

He did have the Fedorov Foundation for children in the Detroit area, which I didn't know existed, so that's pretty cool. Yes, saw this when I looked up his stats.

As for the contract disputes. To me, if I was as good as him (imo, he is still the most well-rounded hockey player I've seen play - the ability to play as foward or defensemen is amazing) I would've commanded a lot of money too. IIRC management also kind of low-balled him the first couple of contracts. I'm not sure where I read that, though it could've been false. Either way I don't have ill will towards him because of those issues. Some might consider that selfish, however I don't. He contributed a crap ton to the organization, and imo (raises shield) his number should be retired.

My favorite things about him were his goal celebrations and how he ALWAYS smiled like a little kid, lol. As a kid I found it awesome everytime - he made me fall in love even moreso with the Wings. And of course the 'white skates', which even further prolonged his greatness.

The kind of player that he was alone makes him a contender as one of the greatest Wings, in my view. Despite the number of goals Ovi has, I don't even think he's nearly as valuable as Feds. Fedorov is the greatest Russian to ever play in the NHL.

I probably have Fedorov ahead of Sawchuk on my list. Behind both Lindsay and Delvecchio though. But of the guys we don't have retired he is the only one I consider putting in front of guys hanging in the rafters in terms of putting him in front of Abel and Sawchuk but it is really close as this played out I didn't have to really think about it since I am staunchly voting Delvecchio at this point. As couple of us have said I will probably sit down at the end and do a list just for fun, but I am leaning hard on putting him up there ahead of the couple of retired jersey guys.

A big reason for me championing hanging #91 whenever it comes up shows up in this vote as an easy decision in my opinion. He belongs with that grouping, only guy that isn't already hanging where that is really true.

 

[KJoe88]

I probably have Fedorov ahead of Sawchuk on my list. Behind both Lindsay and Delvecchio though. But of the guys we don't have retired he is the only one I consider putting in front of guys hanging in the rafters in terms of putting him in front of Abel and Sawchuk but it is really close as this played out I didn't have to really think about it since I am staunchly voting Delvecchio at this point. As couple of us have said I will probably sit down at the end and do a list just for fun, but I am leaning hard on putting him up there ahead of the couple of retired jersey guys.

A big reason for me hanging #91 is an easy decision in my opinion. He belongs with that grouping.

Fair enough. My top five:

Howe
Lidstrom
Yzerman
Fedorov
Delvecchio

Anything past this for me is interesting. But if Feds this round, Delvecchio is next for me.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Of all the hanging jersey's only the Captain & Del stayed there whole career, so while that's a great point, all of the others were traded, had probs with mgmt, or released in some way. I love Ted too. But I feel Feds had as much to do with the wings breaking the Cup Draught as anyone. (Side Note - I was a BIG Ullman fan and was disappointed that he was traded not Del. Probably affected my voting)

"only the Captain & Del stayed there whole career..."
Lidstrom?

I don't get all the Fedorov votes here. I loved him as a player and strongly support his 91 going into the rafters, but as a Red Wing he is not on par with the likes of Delvecchio or Lindsay.

We're talking greatest Red Wings here, can't tell me that Linday's continued presence around this team, in the locker room, with the players and throughout the organization doesn't count for anything. I had a really hard time choosing between Delvecchio and Lindsay, and it was the strong arguments made here for Delvecchio that caused me to cast my vote there. But Fedorov? Top ten maybe, but not slotting in over these all time great Red Wings, and this from a very big fan of Sergei.

 

[waltdetroit]

"only the Captain & Del stayed there whole career..."
Lidstrom?

How could I miss something so obvious?

 

[njx9]

Awesome, appreciate the thoughts... I almost always find there's something I forgot about a guy, or didn't know in the first place, that comes up in stuff like this. FWIW, I'd be fully on board with putting 91 in the rafters. I think the contract dispute stuff is a bit overblown (though I didn't have to deal with Detroit media when it was going on, so again, maybe there's more I didn't know or didn't hear). That said, it's hard to suggest he was a Better Red Wingâ„¢ than a guy who was basically a career captain, with plenty of his own accolades.

 

[Winger98]

Awesome, appreciate the thoughts... I almost always find there's something I forgot about a guy, or didn't know in the first place, that comes up in stuff like this. FWIW, I'd be fully on board with putting 91 in the rafters. I think the contract dispute stuff is a bit overblown (though I didn't have to deal with Detroit media when it was going on, so again, maybe there's more I didn't know or didn't hear). That said, it's hard to suggest he was a Better Red Wing™ than a guy who was basically a career captain, with plenty of his own accolades.

the guy signed an offer sheet from Carolina that forced us to pay him over $20 million in the first year to try to poison pill his way out of town. The contract stuff isn't overblown.

edit: for that matter, I don't know how people are voting for Datsyuk, either.

 

[njx9]

the guy signed an offer sheet from Carolina that forced us to pay him over $20 million in the first year to try to poison pill his way out of town. The contract stuff isn't overblown.

Eh, I mean, there was no cap, right? And it's not like Illitch was, historically, scared of spending money. It didn't, to my recollection, cause us to lose anyone we didn't want to lose. I dunno, I guess it just doesn't really bother me all that much. The desire to leave town for Anaheim seems more egregious, in terms of legacy.

 

[Winger98]

Eh, I mean, there was no cap, right? And it's not like Illitch was, historically, scared of spending money. It didn't, to my recollection, cause us to lose anyone we didn't want to lose. I dunno, I guess it just doesn't really bother me all that much. The desire to leave town for Anaheim seems more egregious, in terms of legacy.

The only reason they matched is because Scotty said we needed him. It was a massive deal, especially since Karmanos and Ilitch weren't exactly buds. To me, Fedorov leaving at some point was just a foregone conclusion because he clearly wanted out. And he did. People try to excuse it because he was getting divorced from his teeny bopper tennis wife and whatever, but if anyone thought Fedorov was going to stick around for anything short of deification is fooling themselves.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Honestly for me I chose Fedorov because IMO he should be in the argument for the most universally talented hockey player ever (he shouldn't win said argument but he needs to be mentioned). He could do literally everything out there and honestly I don't think I've ever seen a player whose game was so complete. He had hands, could skate like the wind, could snipe the puck top shelf, and hit a teammate with a great pass no one saw coming. Not to mention his defensive prowess. There wasn't a position he couldn't dominate. Honestly if he'd started a game in net I wouldn't have been surprised.

He's just too good not to vote for at this point. The guys above him were talented players in their own right but beat Feds because they were better Red Wings. I don't think anyone remaining was a good enough player to be ranked above Fedorov even if their contribution to the wings was arguably better.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

The only reason they matched is because Scotty said we needed him. It was a massive deal, especially since Karmanos and Ilitch weren't exactly buds. To me, Fedorov leaving at some point was just a foregone conclusion because he clearly wanted out. And he did. People try to excuse it because he was getting divorced from his teeny bopper tennis wife and whatever, but if anyone thought Fedorov was going to stick around for anything short of deification is fooling themselves.

It was a ****** move by Karmanos.
If a legendary coach such as Bowman says you need this guy...you listen.

 

[Winger98]

Honestly for me I chose Fedorov because IMO he should be in the argument for the most universally talented hockey player ever (he shouldn't win said argument but he needs to be mentioned). He could do literally everything out there and honestly I don't think I've ever seen a player whose game was so complete. He had hands, could skate like the wind, could snipe the puck top shelf, and hit a teammate with a great pass no one saw coming. Not to mention his defensive prowess. There wasn't a position he couldn't dominate. Honestly if he'd started a game in net I wouldn't have been surprised.

He's just too good not to vote for at this point. The guys above him were talented players in their own right but beat Feds because they were better Red Wings. I don't think anyone remaining was a good enough player to be ranked above Fedorov even if their contribution to the wings was arguably better.

If we were arguing about the most talented player, I wouldn't bat a lash at voting for Fedorov here, or maybe even higher. The guy was a freak of nature, and one of my favorite players from that time. He has so much baggage, though. Not just the contract problems and his trying to force his way out, but the stories of his motivation lacking, Yzerman having to convince him to play through some pain in the playoffs, etc. Feds just leaves an incredibly bad taste in my mouth, so to speak.

It was a ****** move by Karmanos.
If a legendary coach such as Bowman says you need this guy...you listen.

It was definitely an ugly move by Karmanos...but Sergei didn't have to sign it. He could have demanded a different structure to it, and some team probably would have given him what he wanted (such as NYR, who either the season before or after offer sheeted Sakic).

Major props to Ilitch for being willing to spend the money, and probably lose some money on the season for the sake of winning. A lot of owners probably wouldn't have.

 

[HisNoodliness]

If we were arguing about the most talented player, I wouldn't bat a lash at voting for Fedorov here, or maybe even higher. The guy was a freak of nature, and one of my favorite players from that time. He has so much baggage, though. Not just the contract problems and his trying to force his way out, but the stories of his motivation lacking, Yzerman having to convince him to play through some pain in the playoffs, etc. Feds just leaves an incredibly bad taste in my mouth, so to speak.

I can totally understand disliking him because of the offer sheet, the way he left and his demeanor in general. Unfortunately I think that with Fedorov it was largely that he wanted to be THE guy on his team and in Detroit there was always Stevie Y and Lids ( plus a ton of other stars) so he had to share the spotlight. Still when I think of him I don't think of any of the drama but instead those highlight goals and plays that lifted me out of my seat. Fedorov had that magic that could mesmerize a stadium and I find that's what stuck with me. Still to each his own and when talking about the best wings of all time there aren't any bad choices.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

the guy signed an offer sheet from Carolina that forced us to pay him over $20 million in the first year to try to poison pill his way out of town. The contract stuff isn't overblown.

edit: for that matter, I don't know how people are voting for Datsyuk, either.

Age. Those who are long retired, aren't respected as much as those players the voters watched play.

 

[KJoe88]

Age. Those who are long retired, aren't respected as much as those players the voters watched play.

You say this, but realistically how many people here have actually watched the old greats play? You don't have to watch the old greats play when you websites and YouTube. Sure, some people may not cherish them as much, but thats irrelevant.

This argument is flawed imo. Like I said in the #2 thread, everyone has their own perspectives to which leads people to vote for whomever they deem fit as best Wings. Age is precursor. Everyone here is pretty knowledgeable of the Wings' past I'd say.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The only reason they matched is because Scotty said we needed him. It was a massive deal, especially since Karmanos and Ilitch weren't exactly buds. To me, Fedorov leaving at some point was just a foregone conclusion because he clearly wanted out. And he did. People try to excuse it because he was getting divorced from his teeny bopper tennis wife and whatever, but if anyone thought Fedorov was going to stick around for anything short of deification is fooling themselves.

The Wings played a big part in a lot of those negotiations going south as well. It is all good and well to blame it on Fedorov alone, but they share a huge part of that responsibility to me.

They didn't want to pay him more than Yzerman and he was our best player for several years there and had won an MVP. I wish he hadn't signed the deal in the structure he had, but the agent he would later fire obviously set that up along with Karmanos to be a massive payday if the Wings matched. So for Fedorov you get the money you deserve and he took plenty of hate for that and I think even he understood why that happened.

What happened in his departure negotiations were pretty brutal. Trivialize divorce all you like but she also allegedly left him for one of his better friends from the National Team in Pavel Bure. Tough spot. On top of that he had fired his agent, maybe a move we should have all liked considering how negotiations had gone with him previously. But a large part of that was Fedorov was beginning to understand that his money manager was robbing him blind and had massive mistrust in his then inner circle that would all no longer be around soon. He asked for more time, the Wings pulled the offer and came back lower with his new agent. Again Fedorov wanted the old offer and the talks broke down. The Wings pulled it again coming back with an even lower offer.

You can say it was an eventuality but the Wings didn't seem to hold negotiations with him like they did other guys. They didn't prioritize him in a way he probably felt befitting given what they did for other veterans and what he had accomplished. They instead of engaging in negotiations said would you like this... I am not ready.... Okay now you can only have this... why? Well now you can only have this dropping it each time, not hard to see why Fedorov would be hacked off even if he did have the agenda of getting out.

Also pretty curiously he never sold his house in Bloomfield Hills and still spends significant chunks of his summer there to this day. The Fedorov was desperate to escape logic hits some trouble there... He did poison some of his relationships and stature likely by engaging in the initial one with Karmanos. Those guys know the real hatred there, but from that point on they didn't really negotiate with Fedorov like they did any other player.

It was very sad to see him go, it was even worse that Columbus took a worse deal in the interest of not trading with us later on so some of this could be patched up. The Wings were active players in Fedorov's departure in my opinion. I know most people thought it was inevitable and actually for the purposes of the cap coming on board we are probably lucky we didn't hold onto him at that point. But I still think if that second offer isn't pulled off the table he circles back and signs that as he is talking to other teams.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Age. Those who are long retired, aren't respected as much as those players the voters watched play.

Apart from of course the fact that two old timers already went #1 and #4. And that the old timers in this poll actually have twice as many votes as Fedorov.

Its nothing to do with age. Feds is in the mix because he was easily the most talented of the three, and the other two are splitting the old timer vote.

 

[Peter Tosh]

I always thought there was an old timers bias on hfboards, but isn't it time to close this poll now, and declare Fedorov the winner?

 

[RabidBadger]

I think those are things that play into making him a fan favourite, and a key player in NHL history, but I'm not sure it's enough to have him this high on the list.

He's 13th in GP, 5th in goals and 9th in points as a Wing (and an impressive 5th in PIM ). His only major hardware is the Art Ross in 1950. He does have 4 cups however.

Its OK to say "if he hadn't been traded out of spite he'd have better numbers", but he was, so he doesn't. Just like #91 would have had more if the contract offer hadn't been pulled. His numbers are what they are. I don't think he has enough to beat Delvechio, for me he's in that 6-10 bracket with the likes of Feds and Datsyuk.

Edit: Wow, just seen Feds has snuck ahead of both of them! I did mention in the last poll that I wondered if a split 50's vote would allow Feds to steal #5.

I don't make my decisions based exclusively on numeric values. I know it factors in regarding the choices made in these polls, but it it doesn't tell the whole story for me. By those parameters Jagr > Howe or Mario.

If you look back on the Wings recent glory days; guys like Ray Sheppard, Dino Cicarelli,Paul Coffey, even Kozlov (longer tenured than the others) put up nice numbers, but are generally not as heralded as pretty much any member of The Grind Line. I'm pretty sure McCarty gets the nod over Kozlov or the others in terms of legacy..

 

[Mount Suribachi]

I don't make my decisions based exclusively on numeric values. I know it factors in regarding the choices made in these polls, but it it doesn't tell the whole story for me. By those parameters Jagr > Howe or Mario.

If you look back on the Wings recent glory days; guys like Ray Sheppard, Dino Cicarelli,Paul Coffey, even Kozlov (longer tenured than the others) put up nice numbers, but are generally not as heralded as pretty much any member of The Grind Line. I'm pretty sure McCarty gets the nod over Kozlov or the others in terms of legacy..

If you see my post further down the thread, I broke it down past more than numbers for all three. I still think Lindsay is last out of that grouping, all things considered.

 

[Winger98]

The Wings played a big part in a lot of those negotiations going south as well. It is all good and well to blame it on Fedorov alone, but they share a huge part of that responsibility to me.

They didn't want to pay him more than Yzerman and he was our best player for several years there and had won an MVP. I wish he hadn't signed the deal in the structure he had, but the agent he would later fire obviously set that up along with Karmanos to be a massive payday if the Wings matched. So for Fedorov you get the money you deserve and he took plenty of hate for that and I think even he understood why that happened.

What happened in his departure negotiations were pretty brutal. Trivialize divorce all you like but she also allegedly left him for one of his better friends from the National Team in Pavel Bure. Tough spot. On top of that he had fired his agent, maybe a move we should have all liked considering how negotiations had gone with him previously. But a large part of that was Fedorov was beginning to understand that his money manager was robbing him blind and had massive mistrust in his then inner circle that would all no longer be around soon. He asked for more time, the Wings pulled the offer and came back lower with his new agent. Again Fedorov wanted the old offer and the talks broke down. The Wings pulled it again coming back with an even lower offer.

You can say it was an eventuality but the Wings didn't seem to hold negotiations with him like they did other guys. They didn't prioritize him in a way he probably felt befitting given what they did for other veterans and what he had accomplished. They instead of engaging in negotiations said would you like this... I am not ready.... Okay now you can only have this... why? Well now you can only have this dropping it each time, not hard to see why Fedorov would be hacked off even if he did have the agenda of getting out.

Also pretty curiously he never sold his house in Bloomfield Hills and still spends significant chunks of his summer there to this day. The Fedorov was desperate to escape logic hits some trouble there... He did poison some of his relationships and stature likely by engaging in the initial one with Karmanos. Those guys know the real hatred there, but from that point on they didn't really negotiate with Fedorov like they did any other player.

It was very sad to see him go, it was even worse that Columbus took a worse deal in the interest of not trading with us later on so some of this could be patched up. The Wings were active players in Fedorov's departure in my opinion. I know most people thought it was inevitable and actually for the purposes of the cap coming on board we are probably lucky we didn't hold onto him at that point. But I still think if that second offer isn't pulled off the table he circles back and signs that as he is talking to other teams.

How many other star players did the Wings have a difficult time signing? How many other RFAs signed offer sheets with the clear purpose of forcing their way out of the organization? The answer to both questions is probably none. Or zilch. Or zero.

You spend a lot of time trying to hang Fedorov's decisions on people other than Fedorov when I think it's near impossible for him not to know why fans didn't take kindly to his signing the offer sheet, why the offer sheet was structured the way it was, or what repercussions it would have if he did stay in Detroit.

And Fedorov isn't going to get any sympathy after chasing a 20 year old (at the oldest) second tier tennis player (Bure shoudn't get any sympathy for it either, linked with her as far back as 99, Enrique Iglesias was linked with her in 2001, and she still denies she ever really married Fedorov in the first place).

Fedorov's decisions were his decisions. He may have been motivated by this, that, or the other...still his decisions. It was inevitable that he would leave because he clearly either wanted a ton of money or a ton of adoration, ideally both. And it wasn't going to happen with Stevie and Nick here because they were either better Wings or better players.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

How many other star players did the Wings have a difficult time signing? How many other RFAs signed offer sheets with the clear purpose of forcing their way out of the organization? The answer to both questions is probably none. Or zilch. Or zero.

You spend a lot of time trying to hang Fedorov's decisions on people other than Fedorov when I think it's near impossible for him not to know why fans didn't take kindly to his signing the offer sheet, why the offer sheet was structured the way it was, or what repercussions it would have if he did stay in Detroit.

And Fedorov isn't going to get any sympathy after chasing a 20 year old (at the oldest) second tier tennis player (Bure shoudn't get any sympathy for it either, linked with her as far back as 99, Enrique Iglesias was linked with her in 2001, and she still denies she ever really married Fedorov in the first place).

Fedorov's decisions were his decisions. He may have been motivated by this, that, or the other...still his decisions. It was inevitable that he would leave because he clearly either wanted a ton of money or a ton of adoration, ideally both. And it wasn't going to happen with Stevie and Nick here because they were either better Wings or better players.

Fedorov shares a lot of the responsibility, just not the whole thing in my opinion. The Wings came out of that smelling like a rose, I think they are lucky they somehow managed to do that. As usual tougher questions could have been asked by the media that the Wings control and the coverage could have gone different.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Delvecchio because we are voting for Greatest Red Wings. Fedorov may, however, have been the single most talented player to play for the organization.