The Tomas Plekanec Thread

highslot

Registered User
Jul 10, 2012
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I think the Habs should re-sign Pleky and when the trade deadline comes by and Habs are out of the playoff picture yet again - we'll trade him back to you guys for another 2nd and some prospects.

lol. this is why i like habs fans more than oilers fans.
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
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Three points in Game 7 to eliminate the Leafs? Seems pretty impressive, no?

Were they scored when Plekanec was on the ice? He has a huge part on why that series went to 6 games. Had Gardiner and Andersen had a better third period he would of been credited as one of the key facts to why we won. I don't think we should resign him but he was a solid pickup in the playoffs.
 

highslot

Registered User
Jul 10, 2012
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Kadri? JvR? Matthews? Nylander?

4 of our top 5 best forwards were completely useless. Our only offence came from Marner, Kapanen, Hyman and Marleau.

Blame the coach if you want, but he did nothing glaringly wrong. The players are to blame, they shrunk under pressure.


too many men penalties are a coaching error.

personnel selection is an issue. komorov should have never got the minutes he did in game.
-matthews should have got more time if he wasn't injured.
-gardiner and zaitsev should have been benched a few shifts to send a message.
-he couldn't shut down the bergeron line until he lined up m-p-m. now it's not an error, but in a general sense, he could figure out how to shut them down until 1/2 the series was done.
 

Critical13

Fear is the mind-killer.
Feb 25, 2017
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too many men penalties are a coaching error.

personnel selection is an issue. komorov should have never got the minutes he did in game.
-matthews should have got more time if he wasn't injured.
-gardiner and zaitsev should have been benched a few shifts to send a message.
-he couldn't shut down the bergeron line until he lined up m-p-m. now it's not an error, but in a general sense, he could figure out how to shut them down until 1/2 the series was done.

I'll take your word on it over the coach of 20 years with gold medals and cups galore. End of the day, our beloved boys shit the bed. No coaching in the world can stop Kadri from being a dumbass or force Nylander to enforce his will.
 

highslot

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Jul 10, 2012
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I'll take your word on it over the coach of 20 years with gold medals and cups galore. End of the day, our beloved boys **** the bed. No coaching in the world can stop Kadri from being a dumbass or force Nylander to enforce his will.

that's called, 'an appeal to authority' error or argumentum ad verecundiam. if you aren't familiar with the term, i recommend that you look it up.

aside from the fact he's won ONE cup, if you know anything about hockey, too many men on the ice is almost always a coaching error. it doesn't matter whether you've won a cup or not.

of course, the players played their part in losing the series, but to say babcock has no blame means that it wasn't his fault at all and he made no mistakes if you follow that to the logical conclusion.
 
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Critical13

Fear is the mind-killer.
Feb 25, 2017
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Sitting at a desk.
that's called, 'an appeal to authority' error or argumentum ad verecundiam. if you aren't familiar with the term, i recommend that you look it up.

aside from the fact he's won ONE cup, if you know anything about hockey, too many men on the ice is almost always a coaching error. it doesn't matter whether you've won a cup or not.

of course, the players played their part in losing the series, but to say babcock has no blame means that it wasn't his fault at all and he made no mistakes if you follow that to the logical conclusion.

Unfortunately, in order to claim Appeal to Authority error, you actually need to be able to argue that point.

So let's be honest - are you a sports fan who watches from his couch, and spends maybe 20-30 minutes of his day thinking or talking about his team? How many hours have you coached professional calibre players? How many hours have you spent practicing with the Leafs? How many hours of film of Boston have you watched and analyzed? When you claim Appeal of Authority error, you actually need to support it with evidence that supports your opinion. Unfortunately for you, I am guessing that you think losing somehow validates your shallow and poorly reasoned arguments, arguments which are off the hip and based on your self-inflated knowledge of the game.

If you provided any kind of solid argument, I might agree that Babcock's background isn't a good basis for forgiving him in our loss, but you haven't. Nobody really has, to be honest. A lot of "what ifs".

By blaming coaching, you are giving a free pass to the guys who actually have a huge impact on the game.
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
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that's called, 'an appeal to authority' error or argumentum ad verecundiam. if you aren't familiar with the term, i recommend that you look it up.

aside from the fact he's won ONE cup, if you know anything about hockey, too many men on the ice is almost always a coaching error. it doesn't matter whether you've won a cup or not.

of course, the players played their part in losing the series, but to say babcock has no blame means that it wasn't his fault at all and he made no mistakes if you follow that to the logical conclusion.
Coaches can't prevent players from jumping on the ice.
 

darrylsittler27

Registered User
Oct 21, 2002
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Many fans wondered why Toronto even got Plekenac in the first place. This team had no defense and even if they got past Boston they were going nowhere anyway. We also get nothing for JVR and we tried to trade for Hamonic and luckily didn't get him. We still have glaring holes in our organization and we basically gave up 2 -2nd(Boyle and Plekanec) and a first rounder(JVR's worth at TD?). They gambled and failed. They may have also botched the rebuild. We have critical holes at C,D and G with more wingers than we can ever use. Half measures rarely work and we went half in when we weren't ready while still having holes at the most important positions. Teams built around wingers don't win cups..Management should have seen we didn't have the defense, we weren't going all the way this year and kept the picks while unloading our UFA's. The net result would have been identical, first round loss.

If we are following the Chicago model, we just failed. They loaded up on picks as much as possible so that their replacements would be ready when they couldn't pay certain guys before UFA. ALL we have is too many wingers who are not worth much on the trade market. TO top it off, many don't think Mathews is even as good as Sundin, so he won't be that sunset superman afterall. Many warned about this but the blind kept saying " We can win it all! It's now or never!" Now this team is in danger of imploding with no replacements other than tons of wingers. Good luck trading all those wingers for defense and center and if Andersen walks...game set and match. Too many cooks spoil the broth and the team was misbuilt. We have no Hedman or Doughty or Chara back there and quite frankly I think Zaitsev is junk and we need an upgrade on Gardiner...period.
 
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Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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St. Paul, MN
His performance during he playoffs helped make up for his lacklustre play during the season.

That said, if anything just added more evidence to my thinking that most TDL acquisitions are a waste of time and lopsidedly benefit sellers.
 

Martin Skoula

Registered User
Oct 18, 2017
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His performance during he playoffs helped make up for his lacklustre play during the season.

That said, if anything just added more evidence to my thinking that most TDL acquisitions are a waste of time and lopsidedly benefit sellers.

I genuinely can't think of anyone we sold at the deadline that truly helped their team, other than maybe Kaberle. Polak sunk the Sharks, Winnik was a total no-show both times, Franson was hot garbage, Santorelli was invisible, Antropov and Ponikarovski were both disappointments back in the day.
 
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Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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I genuinely can't think of anyone we sold at the deadline that truly helped their team, other than maybe Kaberle. Polak sunk the Sharks, Winnik was a total no-show both times, Franson was hot garbage, Santorelli was invisible, Antropov and Ponikarovski were both disappointments back in the day.

I can’t think of a TDL acquisition that has ever been a major factor on a team’s playoff run.

Just a good time to waste assets for the sake of “making a move”
 

shortfuze

Registered User
Apr 23, 2007
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toronto
I dont actually know but didnt Lou just get fired once already? Me thinks not getting anything for JVR and giving a 2nd to Montreal didn't help the outcome.
Not of that is true. Lou’s contract was up. They agreed on a 3 year term and after that he moves to an advisory role for 4 years.
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
13,819
8,327
too many men penalties are a coaching error.

personnel selection is an issue. komorov should have never got the minutes he did in game.
-matthews should have got more time if he wasn't injured.
-gardiner and zaitsev should have been benched a few shifts to send a message.
-he couldn't shut down the bergeron line until he lined up m-p-m. now it's not an error, but in a general sense, he could figure out how to shut them down until 1/2 the series was done.

And replaced them with who exactly? Dermott wasn't playing well after his injury, Hainsey already had too many minutes. Should we have double shifted Polak and Reilly?

Maybe his match-up center shouldn't have got himself suspended for three games then?
 

Trapper

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Nov 21, 2013
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That trading a 2nd for a veteran centre with wxperience and leadership for the young guys was a good idea.
It was last year with Boyle. I can understand the first time excitement make the playoffs. That I can except. I thought our own rentals were the experience/leadership?
Bozak,Marleau,JVR,Hainsey,Polak,Komarov,Moore.
 

shortfuze

Registered User
Apr 23, 2007
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toronto
It was last year with Boyle. I can understand the first time excitement make the playoffs. That I can except. I thought our own rentals were the experience/leadership?
Bozak,Marleau,JVR,Hainsey,Polak,Komarov,Moore.
So who stepped up when Kadri got suspended? Centre was a bit weak going into the playoffs and they picked one up. They used one of the extra 2nds they had and they still have their own.
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
13,819
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It was last year with Boyle. I can understand the first time excitement make the playoffs. That I can except. I thought our own rentals were the experience/leadership?
Bozak,Marleau,JVR,Hainsey,Polak,Komarov,Moore.

4th line center was a problem all season, they keep wanting Gauthier to take it but he keeps blowing it. It's been handed to him on a silver platter multiple times but he just doesn't step up.
 
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Trapper

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So who stepped up when Kadri got suspended? Centre was a bit weak going into the playoffs and they picked one up. They used one of the extra 2nds they had and they still have their own.
And none of those issues have changed. In fact, it became another issue because it wasn't addressed beyond quick fix.
What if they could have used the 2nd for a permanent fix. Or a 1st plus for JVR for a permanent fix. They didn't. Now you have to use more for another fix.
 

shortfuze

Registered User
Apr 23, 2007
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toronto
And none of those issues have changed. In fact, it became another issue because it wasn't addressed beyond quick fix.
What if they could have used the 2nd for a permanent fix. Or a 1st plus for JVR for a permanent fix. They didn't. Now you have to use more for another fix.
It’s not like they depleted their prospect pool or traded off all their picks. They have 6 picks in 7 rounds. The only pick they don’t have is a 6th rounder.
 

shortfuze

Registered User
Apr 23, 2007
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toronto
And none of those issues have changed. In fact, it became another issue because it wasn't addressed beyond quick fix.
What if they could have used the 2nd for a permanent fix. Or a 1st plus for JVR for a permanent fix. They didn't. Now you have to use more for another fix.
Who’s to say anyone would have offered what Toronto would have wanted for JVR. You still have to have bodies in the playoffs. Why is it an issue not trading off JVR but not an issue having veteran leaders in the playoffs.

If your talking about trading of JVR last off season that’s fine but it sets bad examples trading your top goal scorer come trade deadline.
 
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Blanche Blanche

Torontoooooo
Dec 2, 2017
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Who’s to say anyone would have offered what Toronto would have wanted for JVR. You still have to have bodies in the playoffs. Why is it an issue not trading off JVR but not an issue having veteran leaders in the playoffs.

If your talking about trading of JVR last off season that’s fine but it sets bad examples trading your top goal scorer come trade deadline.

Agreed. At his age, the market isn't screaming demands.

The young guns had enough mental lapses going into this brimming with Hubris and reality checked by Boston...

Imagine them losing JVR and inadvertantly told "not yet boys, ya aint good enough" it might have been a 0-4 sweep.
 
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highslot

Registered User
Jul 10, 2012
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Unfortunately, in order to claim Appeal to Authority error, you actually need to be able to argue that point.

So let's be honest - are you a sports fan who watches from his couch, and spends maybe 20-30 minutes of his day thinking or talking about his team? How many hours have you coached professional calibre players? How many hours have you spent practicing with the Leafs? How many hours of film of Boston have you watched and analyzed? When you claim Appeal of Authority error, you actually need to support it with evidence that supports your opinion. Unfortunately for you, I am guessing that you think losing somehow validates your shallow and poorly reasoned arguments, arguments which are off the hip and based on your self-inflated knowledge of the game.

If you provided any kind of solid argument, I might agree that Babcock's background isn't a good basis for forgiving him in our loss, but you haven't. Nobody really has, to be honest. A lot of "what ifs".

By blaming coaching, you are giving a free pass to the guys who actually have a huge impact on the game.

lol. so many things to address. you've committed what's called a 'strawman argument' on several points.

-by blaming the coach, i'm giving a free pass to the guys who actually have a huge impact on the game? i never said that. EVERYONE is at fault. including the coach. this should be a no brainer. because in my specific post i'm mentioning babcock and not others doesn't suddenly absolve the overall poor performance of said others. or are you maintaining that babcock was flawless?

-losing validates my arguments? did i ever say that? also how do you know that my arguments are shallow and poorly reasoned arguments when you haven't even heard them? lol. it's because i haven't coached according to you and have self-inflated knowledge? now that's called an ad hominem attack. aside from the fact that you have no idea if i've played or coached at any level.

-if only nhl level coaches are allowed to give opinions, then i guess that your opinion is equally invalid, according to your definition. also, we shouldn't have this board.

-so your first paragraph is simply confirming the appeal to authority error. let me spell it out for you:
A is an authority on a particular topic
A says something about that topic
A is probably correct

that's from a simple wiki. unfortunately, you are completely wrong about logical fallacies. whether or not i come up with a better argument doesn't change the fact that the original fallacy was presented and is in fact independent of whether or not i come up with an original argument. an identifier doesn't need to be proven.

i am sorry to have triggered you, but let's be honest, you need to breathe.
 

Critical13

Fear is the mind-killer.
Feb 25, 2017
12,617
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Sitting at a desk.
lol. so many things to address. you've committed what's called a 'strawman argument' on several points.

-by blaming the coach, i'm giving a free pass to the guys who actually have a huge impact on the game? i never said that. EVERYONE is at fault. including the coach. this should be a no brainer. because in my specific post i'm mentioning babcock and not others doesn't suddenly absolve the overall poor performance of said others. or are you maintaining that babcock was flawless?

-losing validates my arguments? did i ever say that? also how do you know that my arguments are shallow and poorly reasoned arguments when you haven't even heard them? lol. it's because i haven't coached according to you and have self-inflated knowledge? now that's called an ad hominem attack. aside from the fact that you have no idea if i've played or coached at any level.

-if only nhl level coaches are allowed to give opinions, then i guess that your opinion is equally invalid, according to your definition. also, we shouldn't have this board.

-so your first paragraph is simply confirming the appeal to authority error. let me spell it out for you:
A is an authority on a particular topic
A says something about that topic
A is probably correct

that's from a simple wiki. unfortunately, you are completely wrong about logical fallacies. whether or not i come up with a better argument doesn't change the fact that the original fallacy was presented and is in fact independent of whether or not i come up with an original argument. an identifier doesn't need to be proven.

i am sorry to have triggered you, but let's be honest, you need to breathe.

Not sure why I bothered to read that. It’s basically a D students attempt at sounding smart in Political Science 101 at a community college.

Keep thinking you are smarter than the rest of us, I’m sure your unprovable theories of why we lost and how we could have won will come in handy in your next game of NHL 2018. Hey, on the way to school, you should be sure to point out to the engineer you pass that the building would be safer if it had an extra window, and maybe tell your professor how he could probably teach better if he listened to some of your advice too. Seems to be your forte - talking out your ass and positing it as fact in an argument against the actions of professionals.
 

highslot

Registered User
Jul 10, 2012
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And replaced them with who exactly? Dermott wasn't playing well after his injury, Hainsey already had too many minutes. Should we have double shifted Polak and Reilly?

Maybe his match-up center shouldn't have got himself suspended for three games then?

his match up centre was actually ineffective in this series. plekanic marner marleau were clearly the most effective option. marchand can easily get under kadri's skin. kadri is a hothead and shot himself in the foot this series. i don't blame him for defending marner, but he got away with a lto.

i agree that hainsey had too many minutes, but if babcock can put marner, bozak and nylander on fourth because of their mistakes during the season, he could have found a way to make it work. also, if polak and rielly were double shifted, at least rielly could have handled it, especially if he was playing better than zaitsev. i'm not talking about specific replacements, but the fact is that babcock, who was used to rewarding and punishing players during the season, didn't seem to do it as much during the playoffs.
 

highslot

Registered User
Jul 10, 2012
1,601
18
Not sure why I bothered to read that. It’s basically a D students attempt at sounding smart in Political Science 101 at a community college.

Keep thinking you are smarter than the rest of us, I’m sure your unprovable theories of why we lost and how we could have won will come in handy in your next game of NHL 2018. Hey, on the way to school, you should be sure to point out to the engineer you pass that the building would be safer if it had an extra window, and maybe tell your professor how he could probably teach better if he listened to some of your advice too. Seems to be your forte - talking out your ass and positing it as fact in an argument against the actions of professionals.

lol, accuses me of talking out of my ass without refuting anything and continuing to insult me. it seems you really need your safe space. don't worry, i didn't even say that i'm smarter than you, although i'm sorry you failed poli sci from what it seems. newsflash, people have different opinions, and it might be considered arrogant if you think everyone agrees with you (EVERYONE disagreeing with me when i said that babcock makes mistakes?) .

you can continue to accuse me of what you are doing (does that make you a hypocrite when you say i'm talking out of my ass?). but i guess your world will be shattered if nhl level coaches and commentators agree with me? that babcock actually made mistakes?

i suppose that if you are some sort of dropout you will think that everyone has the time you do, but actually, there are plenty of stats that back some of my points, and others are actually unprovable at this point either way and just opinion. however, i suspect if i post them to you, that instead of analysing the data, you will continue your personal attacks. with a more civil poster, i may do that later on when i have the time, but i wish you luck in your anger management.
 

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