The "Tanking" And/Or Other Roster Moves Discussion Thread

Monstershockey

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Jarmo is here at the Monsters game so maybe the wheels are already turning for trades.
 

Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
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Signing UFA Chara and trading for Rask might have had a little something to do with becoming a great team.

They also weren't afraid to trade guys like Sequin, Thornton, Kessel, etc.
Indeed. Much like how we weren't afraid to trade guys like Brassard and Johansen and Saad.
 

Cyclones Rock

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Jun 12, 2008
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I don't think any action will be needed to "tank". The CBJ have a below average NHL roster and bad goaltending.

Through 14 games:
1) 4th worst goals differential in league (-16). Tracking for -93.
2) 2.42 goals per game scored
3) 3.57 goals against per game
4) 2 wins in regulation (82 game rate of 11.7)
5) No wins by more than one goal.
6) Alexander Wennberg with 57th most TOI among forwards in league with points in the 159-185 grouping.
7) One forward over .5 PPG.
8) Goaltending stats in bottom 30% of league.

These are not the stats of a team on the verge of becoming competitive.
 
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Nov 13, 2006
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Because the teams were already good. The Bruins teams in 2001-05 were led by Samsonov (8OA) Thornton (1OA) Guerin (5OA) Rolston (10OA) Berard (1OA) they fired their coach bc the team underperformed when it has plenty of top players.

05/06 Bruins top 7 scorers: BERGERON24,18,21,8,1,8,3OA
those teams had players drafted high. There is a reason they were good.

they traded many of the players they got in the top10 and used then to get picks (draft Lucic) and other assets.

FWIW, I believe the answer to to team building is to have better scouting than most of the other teams. St. Louis built their team through great amateur and pro scouting. So did Boston. Yes the Leafs tanked but they made a lot of really solid picks while many around them made bad picks. Vancouver appears to be doing it now. Ottawa built their strong 2000s teams through great scouting etc. I think the surest way to build a strong program is to increase scouting budgets and get as many top scouts as possible.
 

EspenK

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I don't think any action will be needed to "tank". The CBJ have a below average NHL roster and bad goaltending.

Through 14 games:
1) 4th worst goals differential in league (-16). Tracking for -93.
2) 2.42 goals per game scored
3) 3.57 goals against per game
4) 2 wins in regulation (82 game rate of 11.7)
5) No wins by more than one goal.
6) Alexander Wennberg with 57th most TOI among forwards in league with points in the 159-185 grouping.
7) One forward over .5 PPG.
8) Goaltending stats in bottom 30% of league.

These are not the stats of a team on the verge of becoming competitive.

I took a look at team stats and the Jackets reside at the bottom 5 or so in almost all categories. This team is a freaking disaster and I don't see them turning it around. They seem completely lost in almost all areas of the game. Time is running out for Torts (or at least it should be). And probably Jarmo too.
 

EDM

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And therein lies the very big problem. With Davidson gone there is no “hockey person” to review Jarmo’s performance. Jarmo now reports directly to Mike Priest, and for those who remember Priest’s interactions with Howson no one should want Priest anywhere near hockey related decisions. The decision to not replace Davidson amounts to granting Jarmo a blank check to do whatever he wants. And as far as I am concerned it is Jarmo’s refusal time do anything in the offseason to improve the team, far more than anything Torts has done, which has led to the current mess.
 
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LetsGOJackets!!

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I think Columbus will need a change in senior Mgmt and a coaching change. Many organizations have done this with bad results so there are no guarantees that this will work for us better than where we currently sit.

The St Louis Blues go from last to 1st in a short span Jan to June I have to say that pretty much anything is possible. They got out of this world goaltending from a virtual unknown Biddington, incredible team chemistry from a temporary coach Berube, and outstanding centre play & leadership from Ryan OReilly.
.
On July 1, 2018, O'Reilly was traded to the St. Louis Blues in exchange for Tage Thompson, Vladimír Sobotka, Patrik Berglund, a 2019 first-round pick and a 2021 second-round pick.

Columbus certainly could have put up better assets to secure Ryan O'Reilly. In hindsight I would say this move would have given us better results than what Jarmo did. Or going all in on Stone and signing him might have worked better for us too.

St Louis didn't tank & their roster benefited greatly from the work done by Davidson & Jarmo prior to Armstrong taking over and finishing the deal. On the other hand Pittsburgh tanked to get Crosby and Malkin. This strategy does apparently work or has worked, but unfortunately Columbus was one of the bad teams that got screwed by that tank job.
 

Dumais

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Jul 24, 2013
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But I’ve been hearing this for 6 years and we have made zero progress. Also show me where you got that information.
If they are getting it from me? (I posted it on the Trade Forum), I got it from Darren Pang from the St.Louis game. I tend to watch other team streams to hear what other people think of CBJ.
 

zukezuchegno

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Feb 5, 2013
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2- I am not convinced that Jarmo can b trusted with the job. The last time Jarmo had a bunch of first round picks all we wound up with was Wennberg to show for it

We don't like Jarmo on here? I think he has done a pretty good job. That 1st round after Wennberg wasn't very good only Mantha and Theodore maybe Burakovsky out of 16 I would say are better.

On the topic of tanking in the last 3 years two out of the top three and on year all top three fell out of the top three. Along with teams at 11, 12 and 13 jumping up into the top three. I guess i'm asking those of you that want to tank is it for an 18.5% chance at 1 or you just want a top 4 pick?
 
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EDM

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Mar 8, 2008
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There is nothing in my posts that advocated tanking. In fact I explicitly reject the idea in what I wrote not sure where u r coming from.
 

zukezuchegno

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Feb 5, 2013
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Sorry EDM i was more of asking those that want to tank that question. I didn't make it clear this is why I don't post.
 
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DarkandStormy

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Like CR said, there won't be an active strategy to tank like there is in Ottawa. The coaching staff is bad (well, Torts and Larsen at least). This team doesn't have an elite level goalie to bail out the bad team defense. This team doesn't have a game-changing offensive threat. I don't think this team can win many games with PLD and a bunch of bottom 6 forwards. Two regulation wins in 14 games. There's just been something...off for the entire season. This team mortgaged most of the future last year to get a playoff round win and botched the Vegas expansion draft trade, leaving Jarmo not a lot of picks to work with - don't forget there's no 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2020 and no 2nd rounder in 2021. So we will most certainly be sellers at the deadline, just a matter of who's going to get sent packing, imo.

Anyway...fall on your derrière for Lafrenière!
 
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blahblah

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Columbus is not able to GET undrafted superstars and retain them, because nobody at that level wants to play here. Exactly why that level of talent needs to be acquired through the draft.

Meh, I see it didn't take long to start the clown show.

We're not there yet (the discussion of a rebuild), we can revisit that closer to the deadline were it might mean something. The information above, you know this because? We've never signed a UFA of that level? Honestly, "that level" of a signing is fairly rare. We seem to be judging this on Panarin and/or Bob? It looks like Panarin's list was very short and it seemed like the whole planet know that Bob was going to Florida. There really isn't even evidence we even bothered trying with Duchene.

You are on sketchy ground here. We rarely try and get players like that other than via trade. Most of the people we get via trade, we've signed (assuming we've tried). I guess we could revisit Carter, but that was forever ago. Columbus will never be an exciting destination for players, however we seem to have a pretty good hold on the players with a family market. We're never going to have the player with a model girlfriend (or wants one) market.

Seems like a ton of drama over a slow start. One we knew was likely going to happen.

As far as trading the old dudes. It's basically Foligno, Savard, Nash, and Atkinson at this point (Dubinksy is injured and it would hard to believe there is any market right now). Atkinson is kind of our leader at this point and Foligno would have limited value (as would Nash). That leaves Savard. Not really seeing the upside.
 
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blahblah

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Nov 24, 2005
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And therein lies the very big problem. With Davidson gone there is no “hockey person” to review Jarmo’s performance. Jarmo now reports directly to Mike Priest, and for those who remember Priest’s interactions with Howson no one should want Priest anywhere near hockey related decisions.

Didn't take long to go here. This might interest me if JK was Howson. I don't agree with JK on many things, but he's not Scott Howson.
 

GoJackets1

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Aug 21, 2008
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Jarmo isn't the problem, or even a problem. There's a lot of problems with the on-ice product, some are a result of personnel, some are a result of underperforming players, and some are a result of coaching.

Personnel problems:
Obviously, this is on Jarmo, and goalie personnel is an issue. I am of the opinion that seeing what Korpi and Elvis had was a fine decision. You have 2 young goalies who were ready for the opportunity, you play them. At this point, obviously it makes sense to have wanted a Lehner, but that would be the equivalent of throwing in the towel on not one but two guys that you drafted and developed before you know what they really have. What's the point of that, if not to destroy the confidence of your young players, one of whom was a total pro in backing up Bob for 4 years. Obviously we lack high end skill amongst the forwards. However, the forward lineup isn't much different than it was pre-Panarin, and Gus is pretty comparable to Saad. However, acquiring high end forward skill is much easier said than done. I don't fault Jarmo for being unable to do so, because he's far from the only GM to have this problem. I also don't fault Jarmo for losing Panarin and Duchene, because that would've happened no matter who the GM was.

Underperformance problems:
Are these caused by the GM? Pretty much everyone minus PLD is playing poorly. Even Seth is absolute garbage in the defensive zone. These can be caused by a simple bad stretch, lack of motivation, or coaching. But to pin this on Jarmo? Please.

Coaching problems:
These are caused by the GM if only for the fact that Jarmo hired Torts. The coaching problems are aplenty. The powerplay is still dogshit, and the lines are constantly being shuffled like mad, both in game and between games. Young players are being held to different standards than vets and being punished for things vets don't get punished for, on top of not getting much ice time in general. The bench is constantly shortened in close games, which causes fatigue at the top end of the lineup, and lack of development at the lower end, which doesn't bode well for current results or future player development.

Eventually, Jarmo will own the coaching problems if he lets them continue long enough. At that point, I'm willing to consider moving on from him, but the coaching staff needs changing far before I'm even willing to consider Jarmo as an issue. We knew before the season that this likely wasn't a playoff team, and now that it's happening we're calling for everyone's heads. I've been on the "Torts is holding the team back" train for awhile, but I was willing to give him a chance after the Tampa series to see if he was going to be a good long term solution in developing the Jackets next contending core. I was skeptical that he was going to be able to properly develop guys like Texier, Bemstrom, Bjork, and Milano, but I was willing to give him the chance to back up what he was saying in the player development department. The problem is, he doesn't practice what he preaches. I'm willing to continue to let him have a chance to prove me wrong up until halfway through the season, but what I see now isn't super promising. He very well may not be the right coach for developing a young team with this roster makeup. That is on Jarmo eventually, but not right now.
 
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DarkandStormy

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Jarmo isn't the problem, or even a problem. There's a lot of problems with the on-ice product, some are a result of personnel, some are a result of underperforming players, and some are a result of coaching.
At least 2 of the 3 problems you listed the GM is responsible for.
 
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cslebn

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Feb 15, 2012
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but I was willing to give him a chance after the Tampa series

I think this is a lot of what it boils down to (I agree with your points, very nicely put).
What happened to the team we had last April? I don't mean the players, but the system. I wish theseguys would bring that back because it would seem to be what they need to succeed. Look at what that style has done for the NYI.
 

cslebn

80 forever
Feb 15, 2012
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But it is at odds with your statement: "Jarmo isn't the problem, or even a problem." To which, I call BS.

I believe the point is with coaching, you have to let it play out a bit. If the madness from Torts continues and Jarmo does nothing, then Jarmo is the problem. Until that point is reached, then Torts (Larsen) is the problem. Even Shaw's normally steady D has been lacking.

As for personnel, the rebuttal of the issue there was the availability of game breaking talent. Yes we know we missed on ROR last summer. Yes we missed on Hayes this summer (yeah he's not really game breaking). Yes the stars that sad they were leaving left. Yes we missed on Haula (still not game breaking). Yes a commitment was made to two young goalies. It sucks right now, but GoJackets1's point was it had to be tried or you had to cut bait and start again.

It's not like things can simply be pointed to one person and say him, that's the problem. Well, maybe with Torts ;)
 
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Cyclones Rock

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I think Torts needs to limit Wennberg and Foligno to no more than 15 minutes TOI per game. Give the difference to Milano and whomever. Playing these two this much is active tanking so far as I'm concerned.

There is no way in hell that a team which plays Wennberg and Foligno 18 minutes per game will be competitive. I guess that the coaching staff feels that giving more minutes to other players will make things worse. Might be right, but it's still time to shake things up regarding allocation of ice time.
 
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Cowumbus

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Mar 1, 2014
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Meh, I see it didn't take long to start the clown show.

We're not there yet (the discussion of a rebuild), we can revisit that closer to the deadline were it might mean something. The information above, you know this because? We've never signed a UFA of that level? Honestly, "that level" of a signing is fairly rare. We seem to be judging this on Panarin and/or Bob? It looks like Panarin's list was very short and it seemed like the whole planet know that Bob was going to Florida. There really isn't even evidence we even bothered trying with Duchene.

You are on sketchy ground here. We rarely try and get players like that other than via trade. Most of the people we get via trade, we've signed (assuming we've tried). I guess we could revisit Carter, but that was forever ago. Columbus will never be an exciting destination for players, however we seem to have a pretty good hold on the players with a family market. We're never going to have the player with a model girlfriend (or wants one) market.

Seems like a ton of drama over a slow start. One we knew was likely going to happen.

As far as trading the old dudes. It's basically Foligno, Savard, Nash, and Atkinson at this point (Dubinksy is injured and it would hard to believe there is any market right now). Atkinson is kind of our leader at this point and Foligno would have limited value (as would Nash). That leaves Savard. Not really seeing the upside.

I wasn’t talking about Panarin/Duchene/Bob. I’m talking about how the only above average free agent we have had was Horton. In 20 years. Not a good track record.

Also how do you know it’s a “slow start” and not the possibility that we just suck?
 

EspenK

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Sep 25, 2011
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I think this is a lot of what it boils down to (I agree with your points, very nicely put).
What happened to the team we had last April? I don't mean the players, but the system. I wish theseguys would bring that back because it would seem to be what they need to succeed. Look at what that style has done for the NYI.

I think you need Panarin to bring back last year''s system.
 
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