Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Something Happened!

[Peat]

Hornqvist and Rust will likely be retained. Cole not so much. Hagelin doesn’t effect the contracts but he will be playing fourth line minutes and making 4 mil will we can spend that 4 mil on someone else, like a Cole type. Cole shouldn’t be payed 4mil but someone higher than his caliber should be.

Grabbing a 4m dman on free agency probably doesn't result in that big an upgrade on Cole. Grabbing one in trade means taking a gamble or paying out substantial assets for something we arguably don't need.

And either way, giving out Hagelin's salary to someone else who's going to stick around longer than Hagelin's contract probably starts causing problems when Guentzel gets paid and even more problems the season after.

I don't want to be keeping Hags regardless, or say that there's no way we'll need to move him for salary. Maybe we will need to; he's certainly our most expendable big salary player. But that's only a maybe, and there's some big possible problems with spending that salary elsewhere. He's not a player that's "got to go".

 

[Riptide]

My concern is about replacing what Hornqvist does. I'm not married to keeping Hornqvist, per se, but I'd want there to be a ready replacement for the type of thing he brings to the table before I'd feel comfortable moving on from him.

I don't think Bonino's a good comparable situation because I think what Bonino brought is much more easily replaced than what Hornqvist does. There's no one in the organization or available via FA or trade who the Pens could add to replace Horny if he's let walk.

That said, that still doesn't mean he's an automatic sign if we can't get him signed to a reasonable contract. I mean what if he wants the exact same contract Oshie signed (8x5.75m). Do you sign him to that? Even if you adjust that down a year to account for the age differences (so 7x5.75m), that's still a contract that takes him to his late 30s. And as a player that will probably not play with Crosby or Malkin over that timeframe.

I'm all for trying to find a way to keep Hornqvist... but not if the contract he wants from us is something that's going to handicap us from years 3/4 on wards. I like Hornqvist and value what he brings to the table... but not that much.

 

[Riptide]

Hornqvist and Rust will likely be retained. Cole not so much. Hagelin doesn’t effect the contracts but he will be playing fourth line minutes and making 4 mil will we can spend that 4 mil on someone else, like a Cole type. Cole shouldn’t be payed 4mil but someone higher than his caliber should be.

But unless you can find a Cole type looking to sign a 1 yr deal, it doesn't matter... because if we re-sign Hornqvist, we absolutely need the space from Hagelin's cap hit to re-sign Guentzel, when Hagelin's contract expires. That's the issue. Short term (aka next season) even if we re-sign Hornqvist, we have next to no cap issues. Even if Rust and Sheahan get decent raises (3m+), we're still in very good shape. The issue is the 2 years following that when Guentzel, Sheary, Schutlz and Murray all need their raises. That is where the cap issues will become a serious concern, and where Hornqvist's potential contract could seriously handcuff us.

 

[Shaffer]

I’m saying Hagelin should be traded this offseason for sure. What we do with the money is what I’m still thinking about.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

That said, that still doesn't mean he's an automatic sign if we can't get him signed to a reasonable contract. I mean what if he wants the exact same contract Oshie signed (8x5.75m). Do you sign him to that? Even if you adjust that down a year to account for the age differences (so 7x5.75m), that's still a contract that takes him to his late 30s. And as a player that will probably not play with Crosby or Malkin over that timeframe.

I'm all for trying to find a way to keep Hornqvist... but not if the contract he wants from us is something that's going to handicap us from years 3/4 on wards. I like Hornqvist and value what he brings to the table... but not that much.

Obviously it depends on whether Hornqvist insists on some massive deal and won't settle for a penny less than overpayment. But if there's a chance at re-signing him to anything in the low $5 million range to high $5 million range, for around 5 years, I'd be all for it.

Again, it's the fact he's a rare player. This isn't just a "20 goal, 40+ point guy". He brings a lot more to the table that can't necessarily be accounted for on a stat sheet. So it's much more difficult to replace than simply looking for another 20 goal, 40 point guy in free agency or in a trade.

 

[PensandCaps]

I really don't see why people insist Hornqvist is a must sign player, he's just not. If you can't find a spot for him at ES, which seems kinda likely based on who else the Penguins have on the roster, you don't pay significant money into keeping him. It's just being way too attached to those players. If Hornqvist would be willing to sign a 3 year deal at $5 million, I'd make space for him. However, I'm not going to match whatever he's going to get from other teams just to keep him. That would be a horribly shortsighted move, it puts the Penguins in handcuffs with the cap and roster management long term. What Hornqvist brings to the table on the powerplay is nearly irreplaceable, but the Penguins just have too many other good RWers to justify giving him a huge contract. That doesn't even mention Hornqvist's bad fit with Malkin and Crosby not liking playing with Hornqvist, either.

If you re-sign Hornqvist for $6 million for 6 years (which is very likely similar to something he'll get in free agency), you're locked into a $6 million guy on your 3rd line for 6 years. Just like you can't justify paying Bonino $4.1 million to stay here as the 3C since the Penguins don't have anyone to internally replace him, you can't justify paying Hornqvist $6 million to stay here as the 3RW.

People just love him, I get it. But he's a player you dont overpay for when A. He doesn't play a skill game or a fast game and B. We are BLEEDING right wingers.

Guentzel can take his spot on the PP. So I'm not worried about that being an issue, infact I'd prefer Guentzel over Hornqvist on the PP.

If he played with Crosby, then i would get keeping him, I don't see why we should give Hornqvist 5-6 mil a year to play on line 3.

 

[Riptide]

I’m saying Hagelin should be traded this offseason for sure. What we do with the money is what I’m still thinking about.

And I say that unless there's a very specific plan for that money, that there's next to no value in moving Hagelin this summer when he has 1 year left on his contract.

As you can see from the lineup below, even with Rust and Sheahan getting raises, there's money there to re-sign Hornqvist and keep Hagelin on the roster. I have serious concerns about how that will affect this team beyond the 18/19 season, but for the short term, there's nothing forcing us to move Hagelin.

Why? What's he going to get this summer that is going to cause us issues? I mean lets aim high and say that he exceeds expectations and gets a 3x3m contract (looking at Haula's as a reference and going above that).

Guentzel - Crosby - Sheary
Hagelin - Malkin - Kessel
Rust - Sheahan - Sprong
Kuhnhackl - McKegg - Archie

Dumoulin - Letang
Maatta - Schultz
Hunwick - Ruhwedel

MM / DeSmith

Salary Cap: 77m
Cap Spent: 70.36m
Cap Space: 6.63m

Rust (3m), Seahan (3m), Sprong (950k), Kuhnhackl (900k), McKegg (850k)

The issue is not going to be next summer. It will be the following one when we need to give Guentzel his raise, replace Hagelin, likely find a Cole replacement... all while not ****ing ourselves for when we need to sign Sheary, Schultz and Murray to new contracts the following year in the summer of 2020. But short term (this year and next season?)... our cap is fine as long as we can get away with short term contracts for anyone making real money.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Guentzel can take his spot on the PP. So I'm not worried about that being an issue, infact I'd prefer Guentzel over Hornqvist on the PP.

I love Guentzel, but he's not close to as good as Hornqvist in that spot on the powerplay. Not close.

 

[PensandCaps]

this is why I really want to keep Horny. He's a completely unique player on the roster. He's a top 2 player in the league at what he does well with Simmonds as his only real competition imo. I have argued many times that Hornqvist's point totals are a poor representation of the number of goals he contributes to for this team. There's obviously a price point where we simply can't afford to keep him, but I sure hope we don't have to go that route.

Their are a couple others better than Hornqvist

I love Guentzel, but he's not close to as good as Hornqvist in that spot on the powerplay. Not close.

Based on what though? Id rather have the 5 most skilled guys out there. They'll find a way. Guentzel will tip a few in.


If Hornqvist played LW, I would be more inclined to overpay for him.

I'd kill for that menace, Tkachuk in Calgary, plays LW, hated by everyone in the league, has top end skill and will run through a wall because he's a physco. He's the best in the game at that role. I'd give up Guentzel and some for him.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Their are a couple others better than Hornqvist

For example?

Based on what though? Id rather have the 5 most skilled guys out there. They'll find a way. Guentzel will tip a few in.

Hornqvist makes it so much simpler to find a way though. I honestly can't believe this is even a discussion. Hornqvist is one of the most valuable powerplay players in the entire league. He is THE best net front guy in the league aside from MAYBE Simmonds.

If Hornqvist played LW, I would be more inclined to overpay for him.

For sure that'd be better.

I'd kill for that menace, Tkachuk in Calgary, plays LW, hated by everyone in the league, has top end skill and will run through a wall because he's a physco. He's the best in the game at that role. I'd give up Guentzel and some for him.

Maybe I've just missed it? I see Calgary as often as we play Calgary. A quick stat check shows he takes about 3 times the penalties that Horny does, but I don't know if that's all minors or what. Also scored half as many goals. Though that's a solid rookie year obviously.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't want Guentzel to take Hornqvist's role because he'd get murdered doing what Hornqvist does.

If we permanently swapped Guentzel for Hornqvist, we'd have to change the PP alignment as well.

 

[PensandCaps]

For example?


Hornqvist makes it so much simpler to find a way though. I honestly can't believe this is even a discussion. Hornqvist is one of the most valuable powerplay players in the entire league. He is THE best net front guy in the league aside from MAYBE Simmonds.

It's not like Guenztel has been given an extended look on PP1.
Also he and sid have great chemistry. It really doesn't matter, i just prefer the more skilled guy.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It's not like Guenztel has been given an extended look on PP1.
Also he and sid have great chemistry. It really doesn't matter, i just prefer the more skilled guy.

I think the last thing our PP needs is more skill and more guys who want to make nice pretty plays. It needs a hammer far more than another scalpel.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

I don't want Guentzel to take Hornqvist's role because he'd get murdered doing what Hornqvist does.

If we permanently swapped Guentzel for Hornqvist, we'd have to change the PP alignment as well.

I agree 100% Guentzel can’t fill Hornqvist’s role on special teams. He doesn’t have the size to do it, his durability would take a huge hit.

 

[Pens x]

Nothing. Pens apparently are not interested.

Got it, thanks

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Their are a couple others better than Hornqvist


Based on what though? Id rather have the 5 most skilled guys out there. They'll find a way. Guentzel will tip a few in.


If Hornqvist played LW, I would be more inclined to overpay for him.

I'd kill for that menace, Tkachuk in Calgary, plays LW, hated by everyone in the league, has top end skill and will run through a wall because he's a physco. He's the best in the game at that role. I'd give up Guentzel and some for him.

Or we can try to draft his younger brother Brady, who is eligible this year.

I don't want Guentzel to take Hornqvist's role because he'd get murdered doing what Hornqvist does.

If we permanently swapped Guentzel for Hornqvist, we'd have to change the PP alignment as well.

I don't think we'd have to change much. Guentzel's nose for the net and ability to sniff out garbage goals is right there with Horny, plus he's a far better shot-tipper. In fact, he's already one of the best in the NHL.

Guentzel won't get murdered in front of the net. He's smart about when to stand in front and when to move around. Plus, he doesn't have that face you wanna just slap, like Horny does. Guentzel's baby face will help him a lot in those situations.

Lastly, we have Reaves now so liberties aren't really being taken quite as liberally as before.

Guentzel belongs on the first PP unit.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I don't think we'd have to change much. Guentzel's nose for the net and ability to sniff out garbage goals is right there with Horny, plus he's a far better shot-tipper. In fact, he's already one of the best in the NHL.

Guentzel won't get murdered in front of the net. He's smart about when to stand in front and when to move around. Plus, he doesn't have that face you wanna just slap, like Horny does. Guentzel's baby face will help him a lot in those situations.

Lastly, we have Reaves now so liberties aren't really being taken quite as liberally as before.

Guentzel belongs on the first PP unit.

But Guentzel can't just stand there in the goalies face to draw attention and take abuse. That's worth a ton, and Hornqvist does it better than anyone. Hornqvist belongs on the top PP unit more than Guentzel.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

But Guentzel can't just stand there in the goalies face to draw attention and take abuse. That's worth a ton, and Hornqvist does it better than anyone. Hornqvist belongs on the top PP unit more than Guentzel.

That isn't the only way to score goals on the power play. Guentzel provides so much more diversity to the first unit. And those mitts he has, they are silky.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That isn't the only way to score goals on the power play. Guentzel provides so much more diversity to the first unit. And those mitts he has, they are silky.

Agree to disagree. Guentzel is good enough to play on a top PP, but he's not as good on our top PP as Hornqvist is. He'd be far better off playing a role similar to what Crosby does than what Hornqvist does. Which is honestly a nice thing to have on the 2nd PP.

 

[Peat]

That isn't the only way to score goals on the power play. Guentzel provides so much more diversity to the first unit. And those mitts he has, they are silky.

Guentzel can do more things on a power play, but since all of the things he does are things Sid does, and Hornqvist's ability to just stand in front of the goaltender and take it is unique, I can only disagree with you.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I have no idea what I'd do with Hornqvist. He's, in my mind, one of the absolute best in the world at what he does; scoring dirty goals around the net and causing chaos around the goal. There's really nobody that does what Hornqvist does as well as he does. Simmonds is better at scoring, but he doesn't really compare to Hornqvist's ability to get defensemen and goalies off their game around the crease. That's a guy you want in the lineup.

But I don't think it's that simple with this team. We're beyond stacked at RW, and it will be even harder to find a spot for everyone when Sprong finally graduates to the NHL. Then there's the Sid-Hornqvist elephant in the room--there has got to be something more to Sully's near outright refusal to play the two together despite fantastic chemistry and production. If Hornqvist isn't going to play with Sid, and he's been pretty terrible with Geno, do we pay north of $5M/yr for him to play third-line minutes and to be a power play specialist?

I think JR's got a difficult decision to make in the next calendar year. We can't fit everyone into the lineup, so we're gonna have to part with someone.

Guentzel - Crosby - Sheary
Rust - Malkin - Sprong
Hagelin - Sheahan - Kessel

Assuming Sprong continues his utter dominance of the AHL and rounds out his all-around game to an acceptable level, he's going to be in the NHL by season's end. I think he's got all of the makings of another Neal-type, an elite goal scorer alongside Geno, without all the stupid, dirty, lazy play. That frees Kessel up to move down with Hagelin, and hopefully give us a third line that's a legit threat to score every time it's on the ice.

I just don't really see a spot for Hornqvist moving forward, as much as I love the guy and think he's one of the best at what he does. If he could play LW, I think it'd be a much more simple situation, but that's apparently not an option. It's either Sheary or Hornqvist, I think, that will be on another team this time next season, and with the whole Sid-Hornqvist thing (I know, just rumors, nothing concrete despite all the weirdness about the situation), I don't see G-C-S being broken up despite Sheary's wholly awful defensive play.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Going forward, you put Sheary back at LW, Hagelin to 4LW or traded, and Horny to the 3rd line. Sheary is a better LW than RW anyway. And he's a good fit with Hornqvist imo.

Also, I think it's funny that so many people are against Horny at 5M on the 3rd line but are perfectly fine with Kessel at 6.8M there.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Going forward, you put Sheary back at LW, Hagelin to 4LW or traded, and Horny to the 3rd line. Sheary is a better LW than RW anyway. And he's a good fit with Hornqvist imo.

Also, I think it's funny that so many people are against Horny at 5M on the 3rd line but are perfectly fine with Kessel at 6.8M there.

Was just thinking about typing the same thing.

One word speaks about Hornqvist and the Pens. Situational.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Going forward, you put Sheary back at LW, Hagelin to 4LW or traded, and Horny to the 3rd line. Sheary is a better LW than RW anyway. And he's a good fit with Hornqvist imo.

Also, I think it's funny that so many people are against Horny at 5M on the 3rd line but are perfectly fine with Kessel at 6.8M there.

Yeah, I think the problem there is Sheary potentially on a line with Kessel or Sprong. If Sheary is in L3 with Hornqvist then Guentzel and Sprong could have the same problem as the current GCS.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, I think the problem there is Sheary potentially on a line with Kessel or Sprong. If Sheary is in L3 with Hornqvist then Guentzel and Sprong could have the same problem as the current GCS.

That's something we're eventually going to have to deal with as soon as Sprong makes the team unless one of Guentzel, Sheary, or Kessel is traded away regardless of if Hornqvist is here or not. Considering we already play Sheary and Guentzel together, I don't see that as any different than what we've already got.