The sad state of european hockey

Discussion in 'NHL Draft - Prospects' started by cheerupmurray, Jul 21, 2011.

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  1. cheerupmurray

    cheerupmurray Registered User

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    I can't help thinking that european talent development is in a pretty bad shape overall right now, while at the same time Canada and USA is in great shape. If things continues I guess we will see a league with a fewer and fewer players from Europe.

    Inspired by the "world vs NA" thread I tried to put together a u-24 team for NA and one for Europe to compare how strong they would be. It really became obvious then that it is a serious drought right now with talent from Europe. There where a huge amount of excellent forwards and great d-man to choose from NA, and hardly any at all from Europe

    So this is the teams (players born 1987 and younger) feel free to make better ones. Theres probably plenty of better options.

    NA u-24

    Price
    Reimer

    Ryan-Crosby-Giroux
    Tavares-Stamkos-Kane
    Lucic-Toews-Stewart
    Skinner-Duchene-Kessel

    J.Johnsson-Doughty
    E.Johnsson-Letang
    Staal-Pietrangelo

    Europe u-24

    Rask
    Pavelec

    S.Kostitsyn-Kopitar-Grabner
    Frolik-Bäckström-Hörnqvist
    Pääjärvi-Berglund-Voracek
    Hanzal-Anismov-M.Johansson

    Hedman-E.Karlsson
    Kulikov- N.Hjalmarsson
    Sbisa- Ekman-Larsson


    When it come to d-men it's just scary, theres simply very few options among the europeans born 1987 and younger playing in NHL. The only category where europeans actually had a decent group was the goalie potition.
     
  2. KovalchukFistPump

    KovalchukFistPump Too lazy to change username

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    Sweden seems to be doing great and Russia always seems to produce a superstar every few years. It's the Czech Republic and Slovakia that one needs to be worried about...
     
  3. The Fuhr*

    The Fuhr* Guest

    Tons of good players have been taken out of Sweden the last couple years... Sweden is becoming a power.
    Russia will have a big year next season

    It's a cycle
     
  4. Temego

    Temego Registered User

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    Sweden and Finland are doing pretty well seeing that thei're populations are respectively approx. 10m and 5m. Plus you chose an bad age group for europeans. U-20's would look alot better.
     
  5. YARR123

    YARR123 Registered User

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    I agree its the absense of Slovak and Czech talent that is most noticable. Sweden is doing better than ever, Russia still develops superstars now and then, Finland is on its way from getting out of their slump. And there has been a definite improvement in Swiss, Norwegian, Danish and German hockey.

    Also a factor is that North American players tend to develop sooner than European players.
     
  6. Drake1588

    Drake1588 UNATCO

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    I don't know if it's so much that the European systems as a group have changed much — they have always been cyclical in churning out talent — but rather that the US has slowly and steadily been improving over the past five to nearly ten years.

    The US is not at the level of Canada, but you could make a strong argument that it's as high as #2 today, year in and year out, and that is a change.

    I don't see the major powers like Sweden, Finland and Russia dropping off too badly. The Czech and especially Slovak hockey factories seem to be in trouble, though. Those two nations are compiling older and older, and increasingly familiar, national teams for major international tourneys. They haven't produced a plethora of good young talent for a while now.
     
  7. Russia looks to have three top five picks in the 2012 draft. Sweden's been producing some good, young talent. Plus, from what I've read, Patrick Koys from Slovakia seems to be a good prospect at a young age.
     
  8. Barkkonen

    Barkkonen Registered User

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    NA is traditionally slightly better than europe in every category but since we don't have to play them 82games a year + playoffs it becames quite irrelevant. In europe only countries that produces year after year good hockey players/prospects are russia and sweden and occasionally others(germany/chze/slova/fin). And as we all know prospects/projected starplayers are still far away from beign starplayers in a big league.

    Besides european hockey culture is different than NA, europeans that comes over the sea are supposed to be impact players not 4th line grinders cos they have plenty of them in NA already and it explains why major number of prospects are from NA. +

    I don't have a ****ing clue what im talking about, but maybe someone with creativity can pick something worth debating :)

    Ps.+ just sayin.... :cheers:
     
  9. BobDobolina

    BobDobolina Registered User

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    Czechs and Slovaks seemed to have fallen off the map. Finland isn't really producing anything besides goaltenders. The big stars of these countries are already gone or are reaching the end of their careers and not too many young ones to look forward to. I really don't see them being too competitive looking ahead to 2014 or beyond. Pretty sad really.
     
  10. airforceones25

    airforceones25 Registered User

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    For one Russia is part of Europe as well so I think it's a shame you don't include them in your list. This excludes a top player such as Malkin. Russia did win the last WJC

    Young guys at the top of the class. Landeskog, Larsson, Zibanejad - All Swedes
    Next year you have guys like Maata, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Galchenyuk, Forsberg

    Then you have prospects like Runbland, OEL, Tarsenko, Burmistrov, Niederrieter, Granlund, Markstrom


    I think non N.A. hockey is developing young talent just fine!
     
  11. headsigh

    headsigh leave at once!

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    Czech republic and Slovakia took a real huge step back, the latter had 4 players taken in the draft this year, in 08 they had not a single Slovak drafted.
     
  12. Analyzer*

    Analyzer* Guest

    Finland is producing players who are 2nd, or 3rd liners. Still NHLers. Not producing like Sweden, or Russia, but still enough.

    If you go up a year you get Malkin and Ovechkin for Europe, which makes it seem a lot better.
     
  13. airforceones25

    airforceones25 Registered User

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    Malkin is still 24................ for 10 more days! haha
     
  14. BobDobolina

    BobDobolina Registered User

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    Are they really? I was really hard trying to think of Finnish forwards or d-men 25 or under in the league and came up empty. There might be a couple but no impact players for sure.
     
  15. WTFMAN99

    WTFMAN99 Registered User

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    I think Russia would look a lot better if the players came over to North America, there is some solid prospects but that just don't make it over. One that immediately jumps to mind is Kirill Petrov with the NYI for example.

    Anyways overall, Canada, Sweden, the U.S. and Russia seem to be doing okay.

    Finland is producing more players but lacking true top end talent and its been a while since a good young finnish goalie has even come around, Czech Republic and Slovakia are hurting for sure.

    Denmark and Germany are improving though so thats helping as well.
     
  16. walle

    walle Registered User

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    Its been really bad for many years due bad job in the junior levels but theres some new hope in Granlund, Pulkkinen, Vatanen, Armia, Donskoi, Salomäki, Määttä etc.. hopefully it means the flaws in the system has been fixed and new juniors get better environment to play and maybe be the top end talent we soon will be lacking.
     
  17. Spectra

    Spectra Registered boozer

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    Don't really care about the other countries in Europe, but Sweden is producing talent like never before.

    From the 2014 Olympics and for the foreseeable future after that, Sweden will be a legit superpower on par with NA. Book it.
     
  18. Latex*

    Latex* Guest

    .. Ristolainen, Barkov, the Ikonens, saarela, Ruuttu etc.

    I'm actually very positive about the future of Finnish hockey even though just à few years ago it looked like Finnish hockey had met it's end.
     
  19. squidz*

    squidz* Guest

    As was mentioned, you grabbed a very specific bracket that happened to show a bit of a drought. If you look at up and comers instead of just active NHLers, you get a different picture. Taking the last few drafts there's Granlund, Niederreiter, Burmistrov, Tarasenko, Landeskog, Larsson, Zibanejad, Brodin, Baertschi, Armia, and Klefbom taken in the top 20. Beyond those early picks, there's players like J. Larsson, Pulkkinen, and Kuznetsov who seem to have tremendous upside. Will some of these players flame out? Sure, but at least a few of them will end up being 1st line or 1st pairing guys
     
  20. Hutz

    Hutz Registered User

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    Just about to post the same thing... what happened to the Czech-Slovaks?

    Some of the best players in the past 20 years came from those countries, yet, yes, very little young talent...

    Perhaps since 1987 capitalism led them to soccer?
     
  21. sg58

    sg58 Registered User

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    Why would "capitalism" lead countries towards soccer?
     
  22. GlassesJacketShirt

    GlassesJacketShirt Formerly known as BLASPHEMOUS

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    Sweden looks pretty darn good today. Russia will always bring a new star into the game. Czech Republic is a different story, they're in a bit of a rut.
     
  23. Franck

    Franck eltiT resU motsuC

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    From my rather basic understanding of things the biggest factor for the decline in Slovakia and the Czech Republic is corruption and nepotism, coaching jobs and jobs in the federations go to the most well-connected people instead of the most competent people while in the junior teams most ice time tends to be given to the players with the most "important" parents instead of the most talented players.

    One of the Czech posters on this forum promised he'd send me a PM with a more detailed explanation of what was going on during the Olympics last year, but unfortunately I think he forgot to do so. Would have been a very interesting read.
     
  24. alko

    alko Registered User

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    Thats some points, but what we really miss, are talented players.
    Because when you have players with real potential, nobody will have the guts to overlook him.
    But i think, it will be better in a few years. Draft year 2013 and 2014 looks very promising for Slovakia, and i heard that even further.
    And to compare, lets look to draft history from 90s. There were not so many Slovak players picked. And also the efficiency was not so good. Here is a short overview -

    1990
    Ivan Droppa Chicago Blackhawks 2. 37.
    Ľubomír Kolník New Jersey Devils 116.
    Roman Kontšek Washington Capitals 7. 135.
    JerguÅ¡ Bača Hartford Whalers 7. 141.
    Peter Bondra Washington Capitals 8. 156.
    Ladislav Karabín Pittsburgh Penguins 9. 173.

    1991
    Žigmund Pálffy New York Islanders 2. 26.
    Jozef Stümpel Boston Bruins 2. 40.

    1992
    Róbert Petrovický Hartford Whalers 1. 9.
    Jozef Čierny Buffalo Sabres 2. 35.
    Róbert Švehla Calgary Flames 4. 78.

    1993
    Miroslav Å atan Edmonton Oilers 5. 111.
    Richard Šafárik Buffalo Sabres 5. 116.
    Martin Štrbák Los Angeles Kings 9. 224.
    Pavol Demitra Ottawa Senators 9. 227.

    1994
    Rudolf Verčík New York Rangers 2. 52.
    Richard Zedník Washington Capitals 10. 249.
    Radoslav Kropáč New York Rangers 10. 260.
    Ján Lipiansky Philadelphia Flyers 11. 270.

    1995
    Radovan Somík Philadelphia Flyers 4. 100.
    Michal Handzuš St. Louis Blues 4. 101.
    Vladimír Országh New York Islanders 5. 106.
    Peter Å lamiar New York Rangers 6. 143.
    Martin Červeň Edmonton Oilers 7. 161.
    Jaroslav Obšut Winnipeg Jets 8. 188.
    Milan Kostolný Hartford Whalers 8. 191.

    1996
    Marián Cisár Los Angeles Kings 2. 37.
    Zdeno Chára New York Islanders 3. 56.
    Richard Lintner Phoenix Coyotes 5. 119.
    Andrej Podkonický St. Louis Blues 8. 196.
    Ivan Čiernik Ottawa Senators 9. 216.
    Ľubomír Vaic Vancouver Canucks 9. 227.
    Ronald Petrovický Calgary Flames 9. 228.

    1997
    Marián Hossa Ottawa Senators 1997 1. 12.
    Róbert Döme Pittsburgh Penguins 1997 1. 17.
    Stanislav Gron New Jersey Devils 1997 2. 38.
    Karol Bartánus Boston Bruins 1997 4. 81.
    Jiří Bicek New Jersey Devils 1997 5. 131.
    Ladislav Nagy St. Louis Blues 1997 7. 177.

    1998
    Miroslav Zálešák San Jose Sharks 4. 104.
    Rastislav Staňa Washington Capitals 7. 193.
    Martin Bartek Nashville Predators 8. 202.
    Ľubomír PiÅ¡tek Philadelphia Flyers 8. 222.
    Rastislav Pavlikovský Ottawa Senators 9. 246.
    Martin Cibák Tampa Bay Lightning 9. 252.

    1999
    Branislav Mezei New York Islanders 1. 10.
    Kristián Kudroč New York Islanders 1. 28.
    Milan Bartovič Buffalo Sabres 2. 35.
    Ján Lašák Nashville Predators 2. 65.
    René Vydarený Vancouver Canucks 3. 69.
    Peter Smrek St. Louis Blues 3. 85.
    Branko Radivojevič Colorado Avalanche 3. 93.
    Juraj Kolník New York Islanders 4. 101.
    Kristián Kováč Colorado Avalanche 4. 122.
    Roman Tvrdoň Washington Capitals 5. 132.
    Tomáš Škvaridlo Pittsburgh Penguins 5. 144.
    Miroslav Ďurák Nashville Predators 8. 220.

    We are a small country. With all respect, we cant us compare to Sweden, Russia, even not to Czech republik.
     
  25. Mikkel

    Mikkel Registered User

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    It's a rather strange hypothesis (seeing as capitalism hasn't ruined Canadian hockey for example), but one answer could be that if there's a lot more money in soccer, it might sway players and prospects towards that sport?

    I have no clue about e.g. the economics of the Czech/Slovakian domestic soccer leagues vs. the domestic hockey leagues though. As for international stars, I'd assume that Cech and Hamsik are about as well off as the best Czechs and Slovaks in the NHL.
     

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