The Ryan O’Reilly Discussion Quarantine Zone [All ROR Posts Here] (Mod Notes OP)

[Buffaloed]

We basically traded

ROR
JT Compher
Zadorov
Grigorenko
Early 2nd Round pick

For

Bergland
Sabotka
Thompson
Late 1st Round

Thats ugly

Try the same exercise with all of Murray's trade acquisitions, Fasching, Lehner, Kane, O'Reilly, ect. Did the Sabres get a bad return on them or did Murray overpay?

 

[Tyler2829]

Generally if it comes from Hamilton and is not an objective observation (e.g. So and so was not at practice) it's not worth very much.

Also, and not as indictment of any one specific, media members like anyone are likely to pick up a narrative.

On the trade, though I'd rather we had RoR, the fact that any sort of 'Eureka!' moment regarding the motivations is highly unlikely at this point, and that it's possible for the trade to be flawed and have some benefits as well, makes these discussions mostly just exhausting for me at this point.

Hopefully the Sabres are interesting and relevant enough this season that other topics eclipse this one.

Isn't Hamilton the only one who actually travels with the team though? He would see/hear things that none of the others do.

 

[5 Minute Major]

Obviously there were no issues with ROR in the locker room or on the ice.

The Sabres just felt like trading a top 6 center because there was nothing else going on that day.

 

[Beerz]

Try the same exercise with all of Murray's trade acquisitions, Fasching, Lehner, Kane, O'Reilly, ect. Did the Sabres get a bad return on them or did Murray overpay?

Murray overpaid on Fasching and Lehner for sure.

I was fine with Kane trade at the time... it just didnt work out
I was fine with ROR once we signed him.

 

[joshjull]

We basically traded

ROR
JT Compher
Zadorov
Grigorenko
Early 2nd Round pick

For

Bergland
Sabotka
Thompson
Late 1st Round

Thats ugly

That's a bad framing of it since two different GMs were involved

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ya if ten guys wanted him cut, it would have come out. Just like with Kane and a bunch of other guys.

I’m obviously suggesting that the overall narrative was seeded by O’Reilly being honest at the end of the year, and then management running with it hard, because they wanted to get rid of him and quickly and knew they took a loss on what they might have gotten if they were willing to take their time. 3 months, a year, as long as O’Reilly kept playing well, which he clearly did, he would be very valuable. Then when you see them actually improve the team with cheap assets, that were predictably available, you realize that they knew they would improve the overall team, particularly with Dahlin filling the most needed spot, and filling it well.

Did the Pegulas feel slapped by a guy they stood by after a dwi, talking poorly about the team? Absolutely. Have they not regularly discussed their beliefs. This was the final straw.

I don’t disagree with any of that generally or other theories.

But the idea that O’Reilly’s attitude was a big negative influence, and the team played poorly because he wasn’t a blind cheerleader, of which no one was on the team, is total junk spin.

They have looked as a team, ok, with only Berglund making a moderately positive influence so far.

Sobotka was fine in the opener for his role, but has been completely replaced while out.

I guarantee the team’s attitude and success level would be the same or better with O’Reilly on it right now.

As I said trade over, but we don’t need to lie to ourselves.

For someone criticizing not assuming stuff we don’t know and spinning facts, you just typed out a conspiracy theory

 

[BananaSquad]

Why is this a thread again? Just leave it be at this point, he’s gone.

 

[davej0122]

That's a bad framing of it since two different GMs were involved

Agreed... all in all, in hindsight it didn't work out. However, you can't group them together because of sunk costs.

What you pay to acquire him in 2015, doesn't dictate a fair trade in 2018...

 

[joshjull]

Murray overpaid on Fasching and Lehner for sure.

I was fine with Kane trade at the time... it just didnt work out
I was fine with ROR once we signed him.

The problem with Murray’s trades, aside from overpaying, was targeting players he liked to acquire and not really building a team.


What I mean by that is the amount of assets used to acquire Kane, Bogo and ROR , combined with what was left on the roster, made them defacto team leaders. By trading a 1st for Lehner and gifting him the starters job, he too became a team leader/voice in the room. I don’t think for a second Murray thought of any of this, certainly not the consequences, while he was throwing assets around to acquire these guys (as well as the big money to ROR).

This is not remotely an indictment of those players. All can be good and effective players in the right environment (not sure yet with Lehner). But it seems clear that they are better served in situations with strong vet leadership around them instead of being relied on to be that vet leadership. I think both ROR and Kane will thrive on their new teams for that very reason.

ROR in particular commented on it Once he got to the Blues (Paraphrasing) ... he was happy to be a on such a veteran team with strong leadership. From my POV it’s a perfect situation for him. Now he can go be the very good two center he is and not worry about the leadership stuff any more. Lehner has the best possible scenario to get his life and game on track with the strong vet coaches he will be working with on the Isles.

Bringing this back to the Murray trades, if youre going to invest a ton of assets to essentially create a young vet leadership core. You better be sure they are the types suited to those roles.

 

[Paxon]

Why is this a thread again? Just leave it be at this point, he’s gone.

So that you don't have to be bothered by it

 

[joshjull]

Why is this a thread again? Just leave it be at this point, he’s gone.

I started it with posts from the “Around the NHL” thread to keep that thread, and others, from getting derailed with this debate. Its a legit discussion but it doesn’t need to take over a bunch of threads. Now you can simply ignore this thread if the topic is one you don’t want to bother with. But if you do want to discuss it, you have a place to do so.

 

[Gabrielor]

I do miss him. He'd be perfect for line 2 right now.

 

[joshjull]

I’ve always viewed th ROR trade as a reboot of the team and locker room. I also don’t think that means he is a cancer but that parting ways was probably best for both parties. That seemed to be a similar sentiment with Skinner/Carolina.

 

[Beerz]

That's a bad framing of it since two different GMs were involved

I mean thats fair if you're looking to assign blame ... but all Im stating is what we shipped out and what we got back .. i don't care who is to blame. Its just ugly it turned out that way

 

[joshjull]

I mean thats fair if you're looking to assign blame ... but all Im stating is what we shipped out and what we got back .. i don't care who is to blame. Its just ugly it turned out that way

Fair points.

 

[Beerz]

The problem with Murray’s trades, aside from overpaying, was targeting players he liked to acquire and not really building a team.


What I mean by that is the amount of assets used to acquire Kane, Bogo and ROR , combined with what was left on the roster, made them defacto team leaders. By trading a 1st for Lehner and gifting him the starters job, he too became a team leader/voice in the room. I don’t think for a second Murray thought of any of this, certainly not the consequences, while he was throwing assets around to acquire these guys (as well as the big money to ROR).

This is not remotely and indicatment of those players. All can be good and effective players in the right environment (not sure yet with Lehner). But it seems clear that they are better served in situations with strong vet leadership around them instead of being relied on to be that vet leadership. I think both ROR and Kane will thrive on their new teams for that very reason.

ROR in particular commented on it once he got to St. Louis. Paraphrasing but he was happy to be a on such a vetteam with strong leadership. From my POV it’s a perfect situation for him. Now he can go be the very good two center he is and not worry about the leadership stuff any more. Lehner has the best possible scenario to get his life and game on track with the strong vet coaches he will be working with on the Isles.

Bringing this back to the Murray trades, if youre going to invest a ton of assets to essentially create a young vet leadership core. You better be sure they are the types suited to those roles.

I dont disagree

 

[Dreakon13]

The O’Reilly narrative is so boring. Nothing concrete has ever been said. It’s just a never ending echo chamber from management mouth pieces.

Guess what, after game 1, Eichel came out and said he needed to be better... yet nobody came crying about him having a bad attitude.

Trade over, yada yada, but enough with the culture change bs, or strong negative personality. Its silly.

I mean, I agree that there's no reason to talk about this trade over and over and over again. What's done is done.

But to claim any concept of "culture change" is BS is just as silly. Even if there was absolutely nothing wrong with ROR's personality or anything he said, this was clearly a move to change the culture. They said it themselves, when your team is DFL you expect things are going to change. Moving ROR was a game changer, a big one. It sends a message and changes the room/dynamic completely.

We can argue for better or worse, short term and long term, until we're blue in the face. To try and argue that it doesn't change the culture of the team though is just fingers in your ears screaming "la la la" childish level stuff.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

I’ve always viewed th ROR trade as a reboot of the team and locker room. I also don’t think that means he is a cancer but that parting ways was probably best for both parties. That seemed to be a similar sentiment with Skinner/Carolina.

We have three players on the team from that trade. I’m starting to believe Botts that it was just a trade to acquire depth to allow prospects to develop properly.

When he said he didn’t want to trade ROR but felt it was his best option to acquire what he viewed as quality depth, it might not have been spin as there really was no one else he could’ve traded to get that.

The negative locker room crap was pure buffalo media gossip, and never confirmed by any sources.

 

[Snippit]

We basically traded

ROR
JT Compher
Zadorov
Grigorenko
Early 2nd Round pick

For

Bergland
Sabotka
Thompson
Late 1st Round

Thats ugly

I mean we did get 3 years out of ROR as well. Plus a 2nd round pick in the 2nd ROR trade, and McGinn netted us a 3rd rounder that allowed us to have lunch with Jimmy Vesey.

The first trade we played a fair price - we didn't "win" but it was fair.

The 2nd trade we got dicked. Plain and simple.

 

[Djp]

We basically traded

ROR
JT Compher
Zadorov
Grigorenko
Early 2nd Round pick

For

Bergland
Sabotka
Thompson
Late 1st Round

Thats ugly

That argument is ugly.....

ROR , McGinn <~~~> compher, grigs, Zads, hi 2nd
3rd <~~~> mcginn
Vesey rights <~~~> 3rd
Berglund, Sobotka, Thompson, 1st, 2nd <~~~> ROR



So

Berglund, Sobotka, Thompson, 1st, 2nd, Vesey rights for compher, zadorov, grigs , hi 2nd

 

[sabremike]

We have three players on the team from that trade. I’m starting to believe Botts that it was just a trade to acquire depth to allow prospects to develop properly.

When he said he didn’t want to trade ROR but felt it was his best option to acquire what he viewed as quality depth, it might not have been spin as there really was no one else he could’ve traded to get that.

The negative locker room crap was pure buffalo media gossip, and never confirmed by any sources.

We probably could've gotten both Berglund and Sobotka for mid/late round picks. The Blues were thrilled to unload both of them because they had real bad contracts and (to put it charitably) aren't very good players. We didn't need to give up our biggest tradable asset to get those guys. And in many ways that's the biggest problem I had with the move: we gave up our best tradable asset for pennies on the dollar, took one of our few strengths (center) and turned it into a gigantic weakness with about the worst plan imaginable (A 20 year old whose played a grand total of 6 pro games will be plugged into the spot and we won't miss a beat). The result is likely another lost season and gaining very little now or in the future in the process.

 

[Dreakon13]

We probably could've gotten both Berglund and Sobotka for mid/late round picks. The Blues were thrilled to unload both of them because they had real bad contracts and (to put it charitably) aren't very good players. We didn't need to give up our biggest tradable asset to get those guys. And in many ways that's the biggest problem I had with the move: we gave up our best tradable asset for pennies on the dollar, took one of our few strengths (center) and turned it into a gigantic weakness with about the worst plan imaginable (A 20 year old whose played a grand total of 6 pro games will be plugged into the spot and we won't miss a beat). The result is likely another lost season and gaining very little now or in the future in the process.

Not sure how people can still say this, even three games into the season... some people are still in irrational offseason mode I guess.

If anyone has "plugged into the spot" it's Berglund... who has looked solid in all but the first game, where the entire team looked a little lost... and Mitts is getting more appropriate third line minutes and a chance to learn. Though as expected, I'd say ROR's "role" is getting appropriately delegated among the players we have and not necessarily all dumped onto any one player. Jack has taken a bigger role and more minutes as well.

 

[1972]

Three years of ROR in Buffalo easily was worth a first round pick. I didn’t work out like it hoped, but there was value in him helping the likes of Jack and Sam.

 

[Buttons85]

We basically traded

ROR
JT Compher
Zadorov
Grigorenko
Early 2nd Round pick

For

Bergland
Sabotka
Thompson
Late 1st Round

Thats ugly

That's not really correct, since ROR was flipped... it's more like:

JT Compher
Zadorov
Grigorenko
Early 2nd Round pick

For

Berglund
Sobotka
Thompson
Late 1st Round
2021 2nd rounder
...plus the opportunity to try and woo Jimmy Vesey (the McGinn part)

Which isn't too bad, because...

We basically traded Ryan Miller, Steve Ott, Tyler Myers, Drew Stafford, Joel Armia, Brendan Lemieux, Mark Pysyk, and a 2015 pick (Robin Kovacs) for Zach Bogosian, Danny O'Regan, Ukko-Pekka Luukkonen, a 2019 first-rounder (maybe), and a 2019 fourth-rounder. Following that trail is not fun.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

We probably could've gotten both Berglund and Sobotka for mid/late round picks. The Blues were thrilled to unload both of them because they had real bad contracts and (to put it charitably) aren't very good players. We didn't need to give up our biggest tradable asset to get those guys. And in many ways that's the biggest problem I had with the move: we gave up our best tradable asset for pennies on the dollar, took one of our few strengths (center) and turned it into a gigantic weakness with about the worst plan imaginable (A 20 year old whose played a grand total of 6 pro games will be plugged into the spot and we won't miss a beat). The result is likely another lost season and gaining very little now or in the future in the process.

Agreed. I'm certainly not a fan of the trade. Just taking Botts at his words regarding the reasons....instead of inventing reasons.