The Ryan O’Reilly Discussion Quarantine Zone [All ROR Posts Here] (Mod Notes OP)

[DolanPlsGoSabres]

I doubt that was the plan from the moment he was hired.

I'd say 17/18 was an evaluation year. From there, given the sorry state of the team, is where the 20/21 plan and the heightened focus on stability and development in Rochester came about. That's just me talking though.

If Botts really saw the dismal state of the team and saw a need for stability, Housley should have been fired earlier.

 

[Dreakon13]

If Botts really saw the dismal state of the team and saw a need for stability, Housley should have been fired earlier.

I'd say giving Housley two years is probably fair, personally. It absolutely had to happen this offseason though after the 2nd half collapse, and I'm glad to see they wasted no time.

Though when I said stability, I meant moreso as far as roster moves go and not plucking different guys off of Rochesters team every couple of games and disrupting their season and their chemistry.

 

[Aladyyn]

I doubt that was the plan from the moment he was hired.

I'd say 17/18 was an evaluation year. From there, given the sorry state of the team, is where the 20/21 plan and the heightened focus on stability and development in Rochester came about. That's just me talking though.

He couldn't evaluate the team based on 2 seasons of data?

 

[Dreakon13]

He couldn't evaluate the team based on 2 seasons of data?

I'd imagine most GM's would probably give their new team a season to play before really blowing things up. Especially considering the number of off-ice issues that they probably wanted to try and clean up first.

EDIT: And the way things played out, with the expansion draft and contracts ending how they did, Botts had to do quite a bit of roster turnover in that first offseason he was hired. So half the team didn't really have "2 seasons of data" to work off of. For the rest of the team however, I'd say 17/18 was a year to see what they had in them.

 

[Jame]

I doubt that was the plan from the moment he was hired.

I'd say 17/18 was an evaluation year. From there, given the sorry state of the team, is where the 20/21 plan and the heightened focus on stability and development in Rochester came about. That's just me talking though.

His actions in 17-18, CREATED the sorry state of the team... he set the foundation of his awful tenure.

 

[Dreakon13]

His actions in 17-18, CREATED the sorry state of the team... he set the foundation of his awful tenure.

First of all, the team was in a sorry state for a while before he took over. Hence the revolving door of GM's and coaches. He didn't create it, but he certainly didn't help.

Second of all, that doesn't change anything I said whatsoever. Someone questioned "the plan" starting in spring of 2017 and I clarified my position on it. The plan is what it is (if I'm right), regardless of how or why they got there.

 

[sabremike]

First of all, the team was in a sorry state for a while before he took over. Hence the revolving door of GM's and coaches. He didn't create it, but he certainly didn't help.

Second of all, that doesn't change anything I said whatsoever. Someone questioned "the plan" starting in spring of 2017 and I clarified my position on it. The plan is what it is (if I'm right), regardless of how or why they got there.

If his plan was to fail and throw away several seasons as "evaluation" than he should never have been hired in the first place. Competent and credible executives don't spend years "evaluating" a roster, they actually do things to try and improve their team.

 

[Dreakon13]

If his plan was to fail and throw away several seasons as "evaluation" than he should never have been hired in the first place. Competent and credible executives don't spend years "evaluating" a roster, they actually do things to try and improve their team.

I said I believe 17/18 was evaluation... not several seasons. The heightened focus on prospect development and stability in Rochester is the result of that evaluation.

Also people seem to be confusing my explanation of what I believe the plan currently is (while misinterpreting my explanation of the plan), with me defending Botteril. You don't need to tell me why you think Botts should be fired. We know. We all know.

 

[Aladyyn]

So he spent a full year evaluating... and the result of that evaluation was the decision to trade his best player??????????????

 

[Dreakon13]

So he spent a full year evaluating... and the result of that evaluation was the decision to trade his best player??????????????

The result of that evaluation was a heightened focus on prospect development and stability in Rochester IMO. I feel the one trade you're referring to was spurred by a combination of factors... not necessarily to be considered the one result of a year of evaluation.

Spin, spin away.

 

[Jame]

First of all, the team was in a sorry state for a while before he took over. Hence the revolving door of GM's and coaches. He didn't create it, but he certainly didn't help.

Second of all, that doesn't change anything I said whatsoever. Someone questioned "the plan" starting in spring of 2017 and I clarified my position on it. The plan is what it is (if I'm right), regardless of how or why they got there.

It actually wasn’t...

 

[Dreakon13]

It actually wasn’t...

Alright.

 

[Aladyyn]

Alright.

2 years in and Botterill still hasn't been able to reach the season point total that got Tim Murray fired.

 

[Dreakon13]

2 years in and Botterill still hasn't been able to reach the season point total that got Tim Murray fired.

And? Doesn't mean the team wasn't a mess before too.

 

[MagnumForce2]

So basically Botterill took a year to evaluate that he was going get rid of any significant piece that Murray brought in? It was pretty evident he knew this already by the players he moved out.

 

[Dreakon13]

So basically Botterill took a year to evaluate that he was going get rid of any significant piece that Murray brought in? It was pretty evident he knew this already by the players he moved out.

Even if you wanted to try and oversimplify the point that far, he moved the majority of them the offseason after his first year. So I'm not sure why you would say it was "evident he already knew that" prior to the evaluation year. His biggest trade the first offseason was the trade for Scandella, which were all Regier players leaving if I recall.

 

[MagnumForce2]

I am not praising Tim Murray by no means...Murray and Botterill in consecutive order were the perfect storm for failure...the results, a near expansion level team. Maybe this falls on ownership or whoever was advising them on their hires.

 

[MagnumForce2]

Even if you wanted to try and oversimplify the point that far, he moved the majority of them the offseason after his first year. So I'm not sure why you would say it was "evident he already knew that" prior to the evaluation year. His biggest trade the first offseason was the trade for Scandella, which were all Regier players leaving if I recall.

How is it oversimplifying it? O'Reilly, Kane and Lehner were the significant moves Murray made. They were all moved out prior to this past season. Kane was a pending UFA who probably wasn't going to re-sign without a significant price. Lehner wasn't offered a contract but only someone with a crystal ball would have saw that one coming. So why did he move O'Reilly?

 

[Dreakon13]

How is it oversimplifying it? O'Reilly, Kane and Lehner were the significant moves Murray made. They were all moved out prior to this past season. Kane was a pending UFA who probably wasn't going to re-sign without a significant price. Lehner wasn't offered a contract but only someone with a crystal ball would have saw that one coming. So why did he move O'Reilly?

First, while you didn't quote me, I'm the only one whose brought up the "evaluation year" idea in this thread recently. So if saying "so basically the evaluation year was about moving Murray's guys" is in any way in response to me or an attempt to summarize something I've said... it's both misinterpreting my point and an oversimplification of it.

Second, to that point, I believe more came out of the evaluation year than the one single concept of "get rid of Murray's guys" (ie. heightened focus on prospect development and stability in Rochester). Moving Murray's guys did happen, but again, it's an oversimplification IMO. Just one piece of a bigger picture. Seems like most takes around here are just people trying to zero in on whatever singular piece pushes their agenda forward the most in any given conversation... missing the forest for the trees.

Third, again since it went unaddressed, "was pretty evident he knew this already" < if this is implying we can assume Botteril already knew he wanted to move out Murray's guys before the evaluation year... there's nothing to support that. He moved them all near the end/after it.

 

[Member 308457]

All this turmoil in such a short period of time only happens to expansion teams, right?

 

[Sabre Dance]

I am not praising Tim Murray by no means...Murray and Botterill in consecutive order were the perfect storm for failure...the results, a near expansion level team. Maybe this falls on ownership or whoever was advising them on their hires.

It falls directly on ownership. How do you convince an owner ready to win that trading O'Reilly for nothing is making them better?

 

[Jame]

First, while you didn't quote me, I'm the only one whose brought up the "evaluation year" idea in this thread recently. So if saying "so basically the evaluation year was about moving Murray's guys" is in any way in response to me or an attempt to summarize something I've said... it's both misinterpreting my point and an oversimplification of it.

Second, to that point, I believe more came out of the evaluation year than the one single concept of "get rid of Murray's guys" (ie. heightened focus on prospect development and stability in Rochester). Moving Murray's guys did happen, but again, it's an oversimplification IMO. Just one piece of a bigger picture. Seems like most takes around here are just people trying to zero in on whatever singular piece pushes their agenda forward the most in any given conversation... missing the forest for the trees.

Third, again since it went unaddressed, "was pretty evident he knew this already" < if this is implying we can assume Botteril already knew he wanted to move out Murray's guys before the evaluation year... there's nothing to support that. He moved them all near the end/after it.

The things that you think Botts was given a year to figure out.... are table stakes. The idea that he needed a year to figure out the most basics elements of an organizational plan is just bizarre.

One of the rumored stories upon Murray’s firing was the Pegula asked him what the plan was, at the end of 16-17, and Murray didn’t have a good enough answer. In your version of events, Pegula goes on to hire Botts, and accepts an “I need a year to evaluate” plan.

 

[Dreakon13]

One of the rumored stories upon Murray’s firing was the Pegula asked him what the plan was, at the end of 16-17, and Murray didn’t have a good enough answer. In your version of events, Pegula goes on to hire Botts, and accepts an “I need a year to evaluate” plan.

I would imagine Pegula would be more open to a new GM wanting a season to "see what he has" in his first year before coming up with any sort of concrete plan/timeline... than accepting "I don't know" when asking his GM about the plan in his third year. That's just common sense.

 

[Jame]

I would imagine Pegula would be more open to a new GM wanting a season to "see what he has" in his first year before coming up with any sort of concrete plan/timeline... than accepting "I don't know" when asking his GM about the plan in his third year. That's just common sense.

Sure, under the premise that pegula is a dunce at the helm and has no idea what he’s doing in the hiring process

 

[Dreakon13]

Sure, under the premise that pegula is a dunce at the helm and has no idea what he’s doing in the hiring process

Maybe.

Or maybe most new GM's would want to see their players, coached by their guys, playing their system... before lopping too many heads. Especially with a team as dysfunctional as the Sabres were, on and off the ice.