The ROR Beatification Station and Exclusion Zone (Discussion of ROR trade goes here!)

[MagnumForce2]

IMO, losing the co-caps was so much worse. You can argue ROR went on to do more than Briere and Drury (and in record time)... but I'm a lot more optimistic about today's Sabres team without ROR than I was about that team without the co-caps. That was a Cup contender falling apart at the seams, and the best is yet to come for today's group.

I respect your optimism....This was just a bad trade anyway you look at it.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I'm just glad this one aspect of the trade that I posted about to exhaustion, can finally be accepted as fact by even the most ardent bonus deny-ers on this board.

That bonus-only salary structure was a big wall for GMs to climb. I can see Pegula getting worn out with paying too many damn people for not coaching or playing over the last few years. While I hate that it played a role in not wanting to pay O'Reilly at the cost of the trade value, it's the owner's money, he's not going anywhere, so deal with it or quit being a Sabres fan. I quit paying attention before and it was well worth my mental health.

 

[sabremike]

I'm just glad this one aspect of the trade that I posted about to exhaustion, can finally be accepted as fact by even the most ardent bonus deny-ers on this board.

That bonus-only salary structure was a big wall for GMs to climb. I can see Pegula getting worn out with paying too many damn people for not coaching or playing over the last few years. While I hate that it played a role in not wanting to pay O'Reilly at the cost of the trade value, it's the owner's money, he's not going anywhere, so deal with it or quit being a Sabres fan. I quit paying attention before and it was well worth my mental health.

The owner made a very public display that money would be no object and that winning was the only thing that mattered. He went back on his promise to us. And the "love it or leave it" arguments are the height of total nonsense, not the least is the chance that people say "Yeah, you're right. Time to get an Auston Matthews jersey". Know what that leads to?

Yeah.

 

[Jame]

I'm just glad this one aspect of the trade that I posted about to exhaustion, can finally be accepted as fact by even the most ardent bonus deny-ers on this board.

That bonus-only salary structure was a big wall for GMs to climb. I can see Pegula getting worn out with paying too many damn people for not coaching or playing over the last few years. While I hate that it played a role in not wanting to pay O'Reilly at the cost of the trade value, it's the owner's money, he's not going anywhere, so deal with it or quit being a Sabres fan. I quit paying attention before and it was well worth my mental health.

There’s still no evidence that any mandate was set forth by Pegula.

Regardless, the bonus narrative is a complete a total distraction from the real issue... and that’s that Botts identified ROR as the problem. The root cause remains Jason Botterill’s complete and total incompetence.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

There’s still no evidence that any mandate was set forth by Pegula.

Can't wait to hear about the flat earth cruise.

 

[Dreakon13]

Regardless, the bonus narrative is a complete a total distraction from the real issue... and that’s that Botts identified ROR as the problem.

Unless there was something behind the scenes, I'm not convinced ROR was identified as "a problem". Moreso that he was the one player with any semblance of value outside of the general core age group (Risto or younger), and the team was putrid with very few players that should've been considered untouchable. IMO it's not unreasonable to shop him and see what's out there.

The problem, again IMO... isn't that they shopped him, but rather the return and the context of when and why they pulled the trigger.


Sidenote: I remember there being a "sorry we suck, change is coming" letter sent out to season ticket holders that year signed by Pegs. I don't think it's unreasonable that Pegula pushed that much harder to make a big shake up move... and saw Botts shopping ROR, heard the comments, and maybe already held a grudge going back to the Tim Hortons thing shortly after aquiring him... and decided to throw his weight around a bit. But that's just my gut on it.

 

[Jame]

Unless there was something behind the scenes, I'm not convinced ROR was identified as "a problem". Moreso that he was the one player with any semblance of value outside of the general core age group (Risto or younger), and the team was putrid with very few players that should've been considered untouchable. IMO it's not unreasonable to shop him and see what's out there.

The problem, again IMO... isn't that they shopped him, but rather the return and the context of when and why they pulled the trigger.
.

Just more Botts excuse making... the tea leaves aren't hard to read. They identified ROR as the problem. Every local beat writer wrote a "ROR had to go" story while carrying the water for the organization. Even ROR stated, "They think I'm the problem".

 

[Dreakon13]

Just more Botts excuse making... the tea leaves aren't hard to read. They identified ROR as the problem. Every local beat writer wrote a "ROR had to go" story while carrying the water for the organization. Even ROR stated, "They think I'm the problem".

ROR himself thought he was the problem. Or at least that he "needs to be better".

Also, aren't the local beat writers notoriously out of touch with the organization?

 

[Chainshot]

Can we trade for his beard and the Jedidiah hat he wore to the parade?

 

[Myllz]

ROR himself thought he was the problem. Or at least that he "needs to be better".

Also, aren't the local beat writers notoriously out of touch with the organization?

Of course he did, he put the entire team on his back and he couldn't carry it by himself. When the team failed, he felt like he failed. How people look at that and see some kind of negative is pretty astounding to me.

 

[Dreakon13]

Of course he did, he put the entire team on his back and he couldn't carry it by himself. When the team failed, he felt like he failed. How people look at that and see some kind of negative is pretty astounding to me.

Didn't say it was a negative. Just that ROR has a tendency of placing the blame on himself, and that should be considered if we're talking evidence in his quotes about who anyone thinks "the problem" is.

 

[Myllz]

Didn't say it was a negative. Just that ROR has a tendency of placing the blame on himself, and that should be considered if we're talking evidence in his quotes about who anyone thinks "the problem" is.

Jack is also the problem then, correct?

 

[Dreakon13]

Jack is also the problem then, correct?

Where the heck do you guys get this stuff from? I swear you just have a list of automated responses that you randomly pluck replies from whenever your brains process the letters R-O-R. I bet referring to him as O'Reilly would actually throw your sensors off.

The question was, why did the organization see him as the problem? I believe they were shopping him for other reasons than solely scapegoating him for a bad season. Jame said, but even ROR says "they think I'm the problem". To which I replied, ROR always says he's the problem so I can't really take that seriously. (Paraphrasing)

Nothing about Jack. Nothing about me thinking ROR is the problem. Nothing even suggesting this being a good reason to make the trade. I actually said the exact opposite on a few occasions, I'm arguing that he WASN'T a "problem" exactly... just that they felt a shake up move was needed and he was one of the few pieces with value that fell outside of the core age group, and inherently the odd man out.

 

[Bobby Bottle Service]

ROR himself thought he was the problem. Or at least that he "needs to be better".

Also, aren't the local beat writers notoriously out of touch with the organization?

If ROR was being brutally honest he'd say that 3/4 of the team is crap, and have shown no interest in improving. Coaching can't resolve it because they can't bench 75% of the team, so most have come to accept the situation.

Instead, because he has class, ROR refuses to throw anyone under the bus, except himself.

 

[Dreakon13]

I feel like large swaths of posters misinterpreting the same post in different ways as an excuse to throw out some "classic" debating points, regardless of relevancy, has become something of a confusion tactic around here to try and gain the upper hand. That or people are just getting sloppy and desperate for arguments.

The draft is coming guys, probably some interesting moves will be made in the next week or two. Let's all get along.

 

[dasaybz]

There’s still no evidence that any mandate was set forth by Pegula.

Regardless, the bonus narrative is a complete a total distraction from the real issue... and that’s that Botts identified ROR as the problem. The root cause remains Jason Botterill’s complete and total incompetence.

Botts identified ROR as the problem or ownership did?

 

[Dreakon13]

Botts identified ROR as the problem or ownership did?

Oh oh, let me answer this one.

Because they were reportedly shopping him around the TDL, before the comments and bonus deadline and post-season drama started... then it's probably on Botts for "identifying" ROR as a player to be moved (ie. the problem).

EDIT: Probably should've included the phrase "utter incompetence" a few more times.

 

[dasaybz]

Oh oh, let me answer this one.

Because they were reportedly shopping him around the TDL, before the comments and bonus deadline and post-season drama started... then it's probably on Botts for "identifying" ROR as the one to get moved (ie. the problem).

EDIT: Probably should've included the phrase "utter incompetence" a few more times.

Ownership could have just as easily told Botts to get rid of him at the trade deadline. To me, this seems like the Pegulas had some kind of grudge with ROR and it painted Botts into a corner, and now he looks like a complete imbecile. That's the only defense I have of him.

 

[OkimLom]

Didn't say it was a negative. Just that ROR has a tendency of placing the blame on himself, and that should be considered if we're talking evidence in his quotes about who anyone thinks "the problem" is.

There's a difference between blaming oneself and thinking that you could've done more to help. ROR always was of the mindset that he could've done more to help the team win. He never absolved himself of being a reason for the loss. It is what drove those post-practice drills. It is what should be wanted in a locker room especially with younger players.

What one should be alarmed about, is that ROR told his parents that the Buffalo Sabres THEMSELVES thought he was the problem in the room. For a guy, that never threw anybody under the bus when he had every chance to, who held himself accountable but never accepted full responsibility for the wins, it seems kind of ridiculous to see a team, instead of supporting or doing what they can to lift that pressure off that guy, to throw HIM under the bus. When you see they don't move anybody else on the team, it's pretty apparent they thought he was THE problem on the team. When your 2nd best player is considered THE problem of the team when have a AHL level bottom 6 with an incompetent head coach making decisions, your organization, no matter who is making the decisions, is in a bad spot.

 

[Myllz]

Where the heck do you guys get this stuff from? I swear you just have a list of automated responses that you randomly pluck replies from whenever your brains process the letters R-O-R. I bet referring to him as O'Reilly would actually throw your sensors off.

The question was, why did the organization see him as the problem? I believe they were shopping him for other reasons than solely scapegoating him for a bad season. Jame said, but even ROR says "they think I'm the problem". To which I replied, ROR always says he's the problem so I can't really take that seriously. (Paraphrasing)

Nothing about Jack. Nothing about me thinking ROR is the problem. Nothing even suggesting this being a good reason to make the trade. I actually said the exact opposite on a few occasions, I'm arguing that he WASN'T a "problem" exactly... just that they felt a shake up move was needed and he was one of the few pieces with value that fell outside of the core age group, and inherently the odd man out.

The logic isn't that hard to follow.

Part of "the problem" is a player blaming himself for the team's struggles.
ROR blamed himself for the team's struggles a lot, therefore he's part of "the problem".
ROR was traded, at least in part, for being part of "the problem".
If all of that is legitimate, then Jack is also part of "the problem" since he has the same tendency to blame himself for the team's struggles.

The point is, ROR blaming himself shouldn't have been viewed as a negative by anyone, whether it was ownership or management or the media or the fans, and if that was part of the reason he was traded it shows the insane lack of competency by the team. If the team is going to say they moved him, at least partially because of, him blaming himself, then players like Eichel should be looked at in the same light.

 

[UnleashRasmus]

The logic is ROR is traded and gone, won a Stanley Cup and Botterill facilitated the trade. We got worse on the deal, however he's gone. Move on, it's been a full season.

 

[Bobby Bottle Service]

After a loss...
ROR: I need to be better, losing this way was unacceptable
Rest of Team: We can't dwell on this loss, we need to get ready for the next game.

After (yet) another loss:
ROR: I need to be much better, simplify my game, get pucks to the net and maybe score an ugly goal to get us going.
Rest of Team: We can't dwell on this loss, we need to get ready for the next game.

Rinse and f***ing repeat.

 

[OkimLom]

Botts identified ROR as the problem or ownership did?

Doesn't matter who identified the problem.

If ownership has such an easy avenue to sway the moves of the organization, why bother hiring a general manager. If ownership forced Botterill's hand to trade ROR, for whatever off-ice reason, then it's easy to believe that the only thing keeping Eichel in the organization is ownership and their will to be done. If Botterill is just doing the bidding for the ownership, instead of making smart decisions for the organization as not to hurt the team, then this team is already poised to fail. End of the day, Botterill allowed the trade to happen and go through. Either he's too weak to stop the Buffalo Sabres from being their own worst enemy, or he's too incompetent to understand what is a good or bad trade. Botterill is fully responsible for the trade.

 

[Bobby Bottle Service]

Doesn't matter who identified the problem.

If ownership has such an easy avenue to sway the moves of the organization, why bother hiring a general manager. If ownership forced Botterill's hand to trade ROR, for whatever off-ice reason, then it's easy to believe that the only thing keeping Eichel in the organization is ownership and their will to be done. If Botterill is just doing the bidding for the ownership, instead of making smart decisions for the organization as not to hurt the team, then this team is already posed to fail. End of the day, Botterill allowed the trade to happen and go through. Either he's too weak to stop the Buffalo Sabres from being their own worst enemy, or he's too incompetent to understand what is a good or bad trade. Botterill is fully responsible for the trade.

ABSOLUTELY! Botts is SUPPOSED to be the voice of reason to counter Kim Pegula when she comes storming into the office saying that she heard on Buffalo News that ROR has "lost his love for the game".

Botts is either incompetent, weak-willed, or a bit of both. I have no confidence that he will be able to lead the organization out of this mess.

 

[GellMann]

After a loss...
ROR: I need to be better, losing this way was unacceptable
Rest of Team: We can't dwell on this loss, we need to get ready for the next game.

After (yet) another loss:
ROR: I need to be much better, simplify my game, get pucks to the net and maybe score an ugly goal to get us going.
Rest of Team: We can't dwell on this loss, we need to get ready for the next game.

Rinse and ****ing repeat.

Wow I'm glad we made the trade now that you put it that way