News Article: The rise, fall, and stalled rebuild of Ken Holland’s Red Wings

[icKx]

Tidy recap of everything said here over the past few years.

https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/...of-ken-hollands-red-wings/Content?oid=6343388

Click to read more...

 

[TheMule93]

A growing portion of the fan base feels the Red Wings are indeed "mismanaged into oblivion," and there's no coherent or effective plan going forward. That's leaving some to fear that the organization is entering what could be the opposite of its past success — a protracted run in mediocrity.

Others here and I have been saying this for years. I'm glad the media is starting to take note. I cant believe Holland's outrageous rebuild plan of "hope for a draft miracle like Datsyuk/Z were" has gone unquestioned for so long.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Others here and I have been saying this for years. I'm glad the media is starting to take note. I cant believe Holland's outrageous rebuild plan of "hope for a draft miracle like Datsyuk/Z were" has gone unquestioned for so long.

One of the scariest parts is it seems like they don't believe it was a miracle. Or is something they can pull off again.

That's the question I've been repeating ad nauseam. Without a deep rebuild, how does Holland plan to acquire the #1 center and #1 (and let's be honest, #2) d-man this team needs to be competitive?

They struck gold twice in Z and Datsyuk while also having one of the best defenseman to ever play the game to carry the transition between the two eras. Did he really expect that to happen again?

 

[izlez]

Ugh.

Being "mediocre" doesn't equal being "bad".
Being "bad" equals being bad.

Love that they take a pot-shot a Winnipeg on the first page. Poster child for everything the Wings SHOULD have done - is terrible, is laughed at, is still used their model for what we should do.

 

[Reddwit]

Ugh.

Being "mediocre" doesn't equal being "bad".
Being "bad" equals being bad.

Love that they take a pot-shot a Winnipeg on the first page. Poster child for everything the Wings SHOULD have done - is terrible, is laughed at, is still used their model for what we should do.

Straight from the article: "Denial is a powerful thing."

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Nothing new if you have been frequenting HFBoards for the past 5-6 years.

The Wings were destined to fail by trying to rebuild and contend at the same time. The past five years of mediocrity now means we have another five years of futility to look forward to. And that's probably a very optimistic time line with the way the Draft has been changed.

 

[TheMule93]

At the end of the day, the point of a rebuild is to acquire elite talent. Why? Because you will need elite talent to win a cup. How do you acquire elite talent? There are four ways, lets explore the possibilities of the red wings acquiring such a player

1) a trade
2) free agency
3) the draft
4) a miracle (kind of ties into the rest)

1) Trading for an elite talent can only really be done by trading away an elite talent of your own... a one for one exchange. Nobody in their right mind would trade an elite player for a bunch of parts that kind-of-but-not-really sum up to an elite player. The red wings do not have an elite talent to trade, other than Zetterberg who is very old and thus has significantly diminished value. A trade for elite talent is not possible for Detroit.

2) Elite talents don't often hit free agency, and when they do you often have to overpay them a bit in the open market. Unfortunately, Detroit's cap is so mismanaged that they couldn't sign an elite talent in free agency even if they wanted to. What if Karlsson ditches Ottawa? Tavares ditches NYI? Doesn't matter, cant afford them anyway. Free agency is out of the question for Detroit.

3) The draft. There is a lot of luck in the draft. There are two ways to maximize your luck: Acquire as many draft picks as possible, and draft as high as possible. Detroit has done literally the exact opposite of this. We have traded away picks in order to acquire decent players in order to keep us from missing the playoffs and drafting high. Its laughable when you think about it. Due to Detroit doing the exact opposite of what a team must do to acquire elite talent, we have not been able to acquire one this way. Fortunately we are starting to slide in the standings despite Holland's best efforts, which means we will have a greater shot at picking very high. Winning the lottery is our best shot at getting an elite talent, which is starting to become more and more likely (still unlikely)

4) A miracle. The core of the strategy in Holland's master plan. It ties into all three of the aforementioned ways of acquiring an elite talent. Make a trade for a young player that miraculously turns into a superstar - like Brent Burns. Sign a cheap free agent that turns into a superstar, I don't have a good example but I guess Chicago signing Artemi Panarin. Or a miracle in the draft which we very are familiar with... players like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Jamie Benn, etc. Another type of miracle would be finishing just outside of the playoffs and then miraculously win the draft lottery, like philly did last year.

Ultimately, Holland's biggest mistake was failing to recognize when our cup window closed. He never did that, and as such didn't change his management strategy to a rebuild. He kept managing the team as if we were full of elite talent and cup contending like we were for a decade and a half.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I love how the author doesn't do a lick of research and just parrots the opinion and analysis of other writers (and the junk at WIIM). It is like Malik on steroids.

 

[Frk It]

I love how the author doesn't do a lick of research and just parrots the opinion and analysis of other writers (and the junk at WIIM). It is like Malik on steroids.

Yeah, I mean literally nothing new here. It quotes a number of articles that have also been posted here and usually trigger the exact same discussions.

 

[izlez]

I love how the author doesn't do a lick of research and just parrots the opinion and analysis of other writers (and the junk at WIIM). It is like Malik on steroids.

What would make you say that?

in late 2017 — a few months after Detroit finished last season in the league's bottom five

And just to nitpick, I understand a good pun for a title..but "Undeflated"??? Wanna translate what that means? Maybe try to find a pun that isn't a made up quintuple negative.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

At the end of the day, the point of a rebuild is to acquire elite talent. Why? Because you will need elite talent to win a cup. How do you acquire elite talent? There are four ways, lets explore the possibilities of the red wings acquiring such a player

1) a trade
2) free agency
3) the draft
4) a miracle (kind of ties into the rest)

1) Trading for an elite talent can only really be done by trading away an elite talent of your own... a one for one exchange. Nobody in their right mind would trade an elite player for a bunch of parts that kind-of-but-not-really sum up to an elite player. The red wings do not have an elite talent to trade, other than Zetterberg who is very old and thus has significantly diminished value. A trade for elite talent is not possible for Detroit.

2) Elite talents don't often hit free agency, and when they do you often have to overpay them a bit in the open market. Unfortunately, Detroit's cap is so mismanaged that they couldn't sign an elite talent in free agency even if they wanted to. What if Karlsson ditches Ottawa? Tavares ditches NYI? Doesn't matter, cant afford them anyway. Free agency is out of the question for Detroit.

3) The draft. There is a lot of luck in the draft. There are two ways to maximize your luck: Acquire as many draft picks as possible, and draft as high as possible. Detroit has done literally the exact opposite of this. We have traded away picks in order to acquire decent players in order to keep us from missing the playoffs and drafting high. Its laughable when you think about it. Due to Detroit doing the exact opposite of what a team must do to acquire elite talent, we have not been able to acquire one this way. Fortunately we are starting to slide in the standings despite Holland's best efforts, which means we will have a greater shot at picking very high. Winning the lottery is our best shot at getting an elite talent, which is starting to become more and more likely (still unlikely)

4) A miracle. The core of the strategy in Holland's master plan. It ties into all three of the aforementioned ways of acquiring an elite talent. Make a trade for a young player that miraculously turns into a superstar - like Brent Burns. Sign a cheap free agent that turns into a superstar, I don't have a good example but I guess Chicago signing Artemi Panarin. Or a miracle in the draft which we very are familiar with... players like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Jamie Benn, etc. Another type of miracle would be finishing just outside of the playoffs and then miraculously win the draft lottery, like philly did last year.

Ultimately, Holland's biggest mistake was failing to recognize when our cup window closed. He never did that, and as such didn't change his management strategy to a rebuild. He kept managing the team as if we were full of elite talent and cup contending like we were for a decade and a half.

All of your "miracle" solutions aren't necessary. Draft good hockey players in the 2nd-4th rounds while also not swinging and missing on 100% of your first round picks and you should be in good shape in the NHL.

It doesn't take some massive correction or a huge, herculean undertaking to be a good hockey team. Scout players who fit what you do. Keep those players. Funnel out those who don't. That's what New England does in football. You can say "Miracle" for them landing Brady, but look at the years/games he's missed. Matt Cassel who is straight up garbage went 11-5. Jacoby Brisset and Garappolo who aren't anything special went 3-1 during his suspension.

It isn't "HOW CAN HOLLAND FIND A 1C, A 1D, a 2D, etc. It's start finding players to fit what Red Wing hockey is. If you do that long term, those guys will find their way to you. Listing out everything you need and expecting it to be found like you're at the grocery store is just setting yourself up for heartbreak and anger.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

What would make you say that?





And just to nitpick, I understand a good pun for a title..but "Undeflated"??? Wanna translate what that means? Maybe try to find a pun that isn't a made up quintuple negative.

That 75-80% of the article is "per Craig Custance of the Atlantic" or "Ryan Lambert of Yahoo Sports". IT is aggregating previous articles and provides nothing at all in terms of new insight. Just "Hey, Guys, the Wings suck and here's a bunch of people who think so too!... Please click on my article."

 

[Reddwit]

You guys know the article is 4 pages long, right? Sounds like some of you just read the first page.

 

[Redder Winger]

Nothing new if you have been frequenting HFBoards for the past 5-6 years.

The Wings were destined to fail by trying to rebuild and contend at the same time. The past five years of mediocrity now means we have another five years of futility to look forward to. And that's probably a very optimistic time line with the way the Draft has been changed.

Rebuild on the fly should have started after the first loss to San Jose.
Not saying it would have worked
But there was no chance it was going to work by the time Ken Holland mentioned the phrase.

 

[Redder Winger]

All of your "miracle" solutions aren't necessary. Draft good hockey players in the 2nd-4th rounds while also not swinging and missing on 100% of your first round picks and you should be in good shape in the NHL.

It doesn't take some massive correction or a huge, herculean undertaking to be a good hockey team. Scout players who fit what you do. Keep those players. Funnel out those who don't. That's what New England does in football. You can say "Miracle" for them landing Brady, but look at the years/games he's missed. Matt Cassel who is straight up garbage went 11-5. Jacoby Brisset and Garappolo who aren't anything special went 3-1 during his suspension.

It isn't "HOW CAN HOLLAND FIND A 1C, A 1D, a 2D, etc. It's start finding players to fit what Red Wing hockey is. If you do that long term, those guys will find their way to you. Listing out everything you need and expecting it to be found like you're at the grocery store is just setting yourself up for heartbreak and anger.

The Red Wings don't know what "Red Wing Hockey" is anymore.
Did you see their draft?

 

[izlez]

That 75-80% of the article is "per Craig Custance of the Atlantic" or "Ryan Lambert of Yahoo Sports". IT is aggregating previous articles and provides nothing at all in terms of new insight. Just "Hey, Guys, the Wings suck and here's a bunch of people who think so too!... Please click on my article."

I agree. I was being sarcastic.
That's why I put in the quote about us finishing bottom 5...despite not finishing bottom 5



I just wish I wasn't forced to defend Holland for not properly tanking or signing Abdelkader or sitting kids too long. Can we just criticize him for the fact that Jonathan Ericsson is the best defenseman he has drafted in the past 16 years?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

All of your "miracle" solutions aren't necessary. Draft good hockey players in the 2nd-4th rounds while also not swinging and missing on 100% of your first round picks and you should be in good shape in the NHL.

It doesn't take some massive correction or a huge, herculean undertaking to be a good hockey team. Scout players who fit what you do. Keep those players. Funnel out those who don't. That's what New England does in football. You can say "Miracle" for them landing Brady, but look at the years/games he's missed. Matt Cassel who is straight up garbage went 11-5. Jacoby Brisset and Garappolo who aren't anything special went 3-1 during his suspension.

It isn't "HOW CAN HOLLAND FIND A 1C, A 1D, a 2D, etc. It's start finding players to fit what Red Wing hockey is. If you do that long term, those guys will find their way to you. Listing out everything you need and expecting it to be found like you're at the grocery store is just setting yourself up for heartbreak and anger.

What exactly do you mean by guys who fit "Red Wings hockey?" I'm honestly trying to understand your argument.

Because I do think the Wings have a decent supporting corps of forwards, though the defense is another story. But I don't see how building a team of whatever Red Wings hockey is will draw elite talent to the team. This team has no core.

I want to believe it, but don't quite follow.

 

[Claypool]

I still love how people are mad about a general manager trying to ice a winner every season. He's stated his plans multiple times already: Continue to try and win while drafting and developing players.

Also, that article is terrible.

 

[Redder Winger]

Reading through it and imagining the author swallowing hard before quoting "JJ from Kansas."

Why doesn't Winging It in Motown have authors use real names?

 

[Redder Winger]

The biggest blunder wasn't Weiss .
He was overrated. Yeah, he was coming off an awful season and he was injured.
It was a mistake. But I'm not sure how sure anyone could have expected his failure in Detroit.
People expected 60-70 points. That was silly.
But it was reasonable to expect him to be a solid, 40-55 point guy who handled center ice.
Not unlike the expectations for Frans Nielsen.
Oddly, Nielsen is only one year younger than Weiss.

The grave mistakes are the massive contracts to the old players.
The refusal to give top 6 time to young scoring wingers.
Following up Jurco's promising rookie campaign with Tatar and Sheahan by playing him with Miller and GLendening.
Signing the Alfredssons and Modanos and Bertuzzis and Colaiacovos and Daleys instead of letting the kids play.

The grave mistake is refusal to look in the mirror and see a mediocre team that needs nothing else than to teach its young kids to be NHLers. To see if they're good or average or bad or great.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

What exactly do you mean by guys who fit "Red Wings hockey?" I'm honestly trying to understand your argument.

Because I do think the Wings have a decent supporting corps of forwards, though the defense is another story. But I don't see how building a team of whatever Red Wings hockey is will draw elite talent to the team. This team has no core.

I want to believe it, but don't quite follow.

Mostly it's that having an identity is a hell of a lot more important than SUCK SUCK SUCK and hope you get lucky. If you don't have an identity, choose one and go with it. If you're puttering around listlessly with your old one, put the work in and focus in on getting a new one.

You want to be a puck possession team? Go get skilled puck possessors. Big hulking monsters who are intimidating to play against? You could do that too. Basically, pick a route for your team and stick with it.

Chasing elite players is a fools game, because there is no tried and true way to pull them. Build a solid base for your team instead of chasing the shiny toy.

I know that the first post about this was kinda cliche. Just more saying that sustainable success comes from building a "Red Wings" way. Or building a "Patriots" way. Not that we even necessarily have one right now. Just that a consistent, sustainable message and team building philosophy is a hell of a lot more important to develop than trade everyone over 30 and pray to god we hit the lottery.

 

[Redder Winger]

I'm actually happy to see a local writer take Holland to task for these things.
Good to see someone challenge the status quo thinking on the Athanasiou thing, too.

It's absolutely unforgivable that the Wings let a few hundred thousand dollars turn into this contract mess.

The Wings need to be rebuilding with their young players.

The real reason why Holland has to hold the line is so obvious.

Holland already has to trade Sheahan just to sign Athanasiou.
If he signs Athanasiou, then he has to make a second move.

The real reason isn't Athanasiou's defense or the comparables.
The reason is Holland's idiotic salary moves tied his hands.

 

[Redder Winger]

Mostly it's that having an identity is a hell of a lot more important than SUCK SUCK SUCK and hope you get lucky. If you don't have an identity, choose one and go with it. If you're puttering around listlessly with your old one, put the work in and focus in on getting a new one.

You want to be a puck possession team? Go get skilled puck possessors. Big hulking monsters who are intimidating to play against? You could do that too. Basically, pick a route for your team and stick with it.

Chasing elite players is a fools game, because there is no tried and true way to pull them. Build a solid base for your team instead of chasing the shiny toy.

I know that the first post about this was kinda cliche. Just more saying that sustainable success comes from building a "Red Wings" way. Or building a "Patriots" way. Not that we even necessarily have one right now. Just that a consistent, sustainable message and team building philosophy is a hell of a lot more important to develop than trade everyone over 30 and pray to god we hit the lottery.

The Red Wings way was puck possession and patience.
Skill.
Two way centers committed to defense and offense.

I don't think our drafts reflect that at all.
Never less so than our last draft.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Mostly it's that having an identity is a hell of a lot more important than SUCK SUCK SUCK and hope you get lucky. If you don't have an identity, choose one and go with it. If you're puttering around listlessly with your old one, put the work in and focus in on getting a new one.

You want to be a puck possession team? Go get skilled puck possessors. Big hulking monsters who are intimidating to play against? You could do that too. Basically, pick a route for your team and stick with it.

Chasing elite players is a fools game, because there is no tried and true way to pull them. Build a solid base for your team instead of chasing the shiny toy.

I know that the first post about this was kinda cliche. Just more saying that sustainable success comes from building a "Red Wings" way. Or building a "Patriots" way. Not that we even necessarily have one right now. Just that a consistent, sustainable message and team building philosophy is a hell of a lot more important to develop than trade everyone over 30 and pray to god we hit the lottery.

This is pretty much how I see it. I may not agree with his method, but it seems to me that Holland and his staff do have a plan. They are trying to draft a combination of size, skill and character - a team that will be hard to play against and hopefully skilled enough to compete night in and night out. Obviously adding elite talent to the team is the more preferred route, but given that elite talent is not so easily acquired, the front office seems to be trying to build a team that can compete without it, and then, hopefully, that elite talent will show up and a team will be in place that can start winning soem cups - this is how I see the current plan.

Unfortunately, the commitment to an alternate plan (this one or any other) began several years too late; as this article and everyone else has pointed out, the writing was on the wall years ago. I'm in a wait and see mode now, hopefully some of our more recent draft picks become solid character players who can be fun to watch and hard to play against, I could live with that, though it will likely be a few seasons before that determination can be made. I see it as a better option than the small, weak wingers we've been having "draft success" with prior to adopting this new strategy.

Like everyone I'm hoping we land us that 1C or 1D this draft, it would certainly make things so much brighter. I'm not expecting much from this year's team, but I don't think we're drifting without a direction anymore. Again, I may not agree with the direction and I'm certainly not qualified to say if it can work; just waiting, watching and hoping.

 

[Frk It]

.Chasing elite players is a fools game, because there is no tried and true way to pull them. Build a solid base for your team instead of chasing the shiny toy.

Meh. I have a few issues with this. Chasing elite players is the only way, even if there is not a tried and true way of getting one.

Also creating a solid base can actually be counter-productive towards getting one in a way.