The Rise and the Fall of the Large Goalie?

[bucks_oil]

Ok....

So Devils4cup... I loved your post. You clearly articulated a number of advantages to a hybrid style... but as I am a hybrid --> Profly convert, with poor to no training (meaning... self taught and therefore still quite likely to keep some of my hybrid traits)... I thought I'd make a few comments.

First... In the photos of Brodeur you are showing, he's actually not in "half-butterfly", but rather, he's in the midst of a quite powerful "T-push". In the old days, before "skulling" (hard arc cuts popular with euro-trained goalies designed to move you shorter distances and keep you always square), T-pushes were considered the only way to get across the net.

From brodeurs position in your photos he could either:

i) kick out the face of the leading leg into a half butterfly, like here, or

ii) make a skate save, like here... notice the huge number of sharp puck marks on the inside of Brodeurs pads in your photo (and the one two below)? Shows he had both in his repertoire.

I have to say, it was very hard to find a classic "skate save" (where the save is made with the blade), cuz it just simply isn't done anymore... well, Marty does, but not too often. Even Khabi (yep, that's him) doesn't do it anymore as he's a definite pro-fly convert. He hasn't lost all his hybrid moves, but skate-saves and deep T-pushes are usually the first to go. Hence my joke about your carbon dating

Now... to your point about having more options from that position. Absolutely... for example you could do this if the shot was higher

But what is intersting about that move... both glove and pad high... is that it is a transition/adaptive move. It starts from half butterfly and then reacts to a higher shot by lifting the leg. But what's more interesting is that only two of the three popular styles can do it.
i) hybrid, half-butterfliers can do it cuz they are in half butterfly
ii) hybrid profliers can do it too, cuz recall that when they "extend the leg" from the butterfly they do so by moving into a half-butterfly position. Their weight shifts to the knee of the non-extending leg, so they can still lift the extending leg off the ice
iii) "classic" profliers are less likely to be able to, because they were rotating the leg from the hip... it still is weight bearing at the knee, so it's just too awkard to lift it since they are close to the end of the range of their motion.

I think that's as good an example as I can give as to why I think the hybrid-profly is gaining more popularity (quick, Price, etc). It still allows greater variety in save positions and is less static than the classic butterfly/profly.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

Great points. I have a lot to think about now. I have some observations to share about something that I noticed that J. Bernier was doing in the game against the Flyers a few days ago that maybe you can comment on after I post it on here.

I need to go into gamecenter and take some screen shots ect. so you'll have to wait until i'm done work

Oh, the suspense!

 

[bucks_oil]

Now... for a little more fun... my take on why "Classic Butterfly" and "Classic late 90's Hybrid" are both going by the wayside?

1) Classic Butterfly... this answer is easy
i) Equipment changes made "classic profly" possible
ii) It hurt like hell... take a look at Roy in this photo. Notice the gap under one knee?

You can find thousands of photos like this... the reason is that getting both knees down, without knee stacks, pad rotation and innovative toe-bridges was really an anatomically impossible position. It lead to injury and hip/groin/knee tweaks, so most goalies tended to favor one "landing" knee and cheated the other one up... covering (or trying to) with the stick.

It also took away the #1 benefit of the "profly" style, that being even weight on both legs... allowing you to be perfectly square and ready to quickly edge in either direction from your knees. Compare how square to the shooter and how sealed the butterfly is with Quick.

That's all on the equipment.

2) Hybrid... this is a little harder, but my theory is as follows. The biggest advantage of classic hybrid was the variety in save positions and skills.
By far the most effective of moves a hybrid guy would do in the late nineties was the paddle-down half butterfly. Notice Brodeur below.

Even in desperation, the paddle and 12" pads could take away the bottom half of the net and the huge, oversized trapper had the top half.


The problem was that this move lent itself toward cheating and over-reliance on the glove-side half-butterfly. It was popular and tempting to go down immediately into the glove-side halfbutterfly and if things changed, the player came across the net to the stick side, simply follow him with the paddle still down... like this...

or this....

and if the guy was faster across the net than you, it would end up with you needing to make this save...

or worse yet... you'd be in huge trouble and need to make this save...

It got so popular even that you'd see guys cheating in their stance... like our old fave!

So over time, and as they started to learn the profly, hybrid goalies learned to keep their weight a little more square in the butterfly. It helped remind them that they should really be using their stickside leg a little more and not letting it get "frozen" or "buried" under their weight... which then forced more desperation "blocker on ice" or "paddle down scrambles".

I'd love to see the prevalence of high stick side goals in the late 90's vs today... I think the results would be pretty dramatic!

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

So what's Dubnyk. Is he Hybrid or butterfly. Because I found pics of both.

 

[bucks_oil]

what I called earlier a hybrid-profly. Newer school, not french, some elements of both... though I'd say he is closer to the Alaire school of shot blocking vs the finnish school of hybrid style goaltending.

 

[skorf]

We will never see goalies flail about like Ranford again. Goalies nowadays are so polished and mechanical in their movements. You will still see the occasional scramble off a rebound, or after a goal crease crash, but that's about it.

Tim Thomas, he tends to flail.

And is only 5'11''

 

[McGoMcD]

Tim Thomas, he tends to flail.

And is only 5'11''

Thomas is a real throw back, no doubt about it. Its funny becuase people will say we will never see another randford again, yet there always seems to be one guy out there that just defys logic and gets it done. ie Thomas.

 

[McGoMcD]

So what's Dubnyk. Is he Hybrid or butterfly. Because I found pics of both.

I think he is much more butterfly. I say that simply because the top image I don't recall seeing, where the bottom image he does constantly.

 

[bucks_oil]

I think he is much more butterfly. I say that simply because the top image I don't recall seeing, where the bottom image he does constantly.

That's true. The top image, derived from a half butterfly is something I've only seen him do in the shootout. It's also something that Khabby did a lot, so I don't think it is too difficult to imagine where he picked it up.

Back on the topic... I think Replacement nailed it though. Dubnyk's problem is not style per se, but technique. He cheats big time on his angles and sits way back in the net. The latter is common for bigger goalies, but IMO Dubnyk is fast enough across the net and a good enough skater that he doesn't need to do that. He could play further out of his crease and get away with it. So if, as suggested in the OP, the game passed Dubnyk by, it wouldn't be because he's big... it would that "because he was big, he didn't learn to properly refine his technique the way a smaller NHL goalie would be forced to... and now with smaller equipment, weaknesses are exposed"... or something like that.

BTW... I think Dubnyk will be fine. He just needs a game or two to adjust. That Trouba 7-hole goal can be partially attributed to the new gear, but mostly it was just a lazy play.

 

[harpoon]

That Trouba 7-hole goal can be partially attributed to the new gear, but mostly it was just a lazy play.

After all the talk of size and gear and styles, too often that's what it comes down to with Dubnyk. Just a lazy play.

He knows where his damn angles are - he's been playing goal since he was five years old.
He's just too unfocused to maintain the concentration required to hold his angles, or his ready stance. Oops ... another lazy play.

Who am I to say, but this is not a player who seems highly motivated to succeed.

 

[bucks_oil]

By the way... Was watching the highlights of the Perron and eberle goals this am (I fell asleep on the couch haha) and they are a perfect example of the bad habit that limited the effectiveness of the 90's hybrid style.

Watch brodeur on both those plays. He overcommits and moves to go "paddle down" to protect the 5-hole. As soon as he does that his weight is committed over his stick side knee, and although (through sheer athleticism and flexibility) he can still "backstretch" that leg to cover the bottom of the stick side, he can no longer attempt to cover the top cuz his blocker is along the ice.

A natural bad habit that came because the glove side paddle down was so effective (and takes a while to get into) that you'd naturally cheat for it... Forcing yourself into a glove side half butterfly when you should have been in a stick side half butterfly.

Funny that Marty gave us two examples just a day after we were chatting about it... And he was the BEST at his style!

 

[M Ace]

"The Rise and the Fall" is a great joke about the butterfly position.

It is also a great explanation for Blaine Lacher & Jim Carey!