The Rise and the Fall of the Large Goalie?

Discussion in 'Edmonton Oilers' started by McGoMcD, Oct 3, 2013.

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  1. McGoMcD

    McGoMcD Registered User

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    I have this idea and it is hard for me to explain why exaclty, but I think the new rules will hurt large goalies.

    Basically we all recall the days of Furh, Randford, Moog ect, the small goalie with great reflexes. Over time goalies have gotten bigger, equipment has gotten way bigger.

    Any way, two rule changes, small equipment and the smaller nets I think hurt these goalies. Reason 1 is pretty simple, bigger goalie pads, means the more you lose. 2. the smaller nets allow players to do rap around a lot quicker. Goalies will need to be much faster across the net.

    I think it hurts the big goalie that just plays angles well but doesn't really have the best reflexes. I for one think it is a good thing. I want to see the return of the small goalie whit great reflexes.

    This, sadly relates to the Oilers, if I am right it hurts dubs and Lababera. So sort of hope I am not that right.
     
  2. friction

    friction 5-14-6-1

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    We should have enough data mid-season to do an analysis on how bigger goalies and smaller goalies have improved or regressed based on their previous performances.

    I'll definitely be keeping my eye on it - one good player to watch will be Pekka Rinne.
     
  3. McGoMcD

    McGoMcD Registered User

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    Ya, I agree, I suppose this thread is really premature. As it will be easy to test. I guess we just have to wait and see the results.
     
  4. Replacement*

    Replacement* Checked out

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    Reasonable hypothesis.

    I think maneuverability will become more important now that the wall of pads has been reduced. I love these moves as well by the NHL. Personally I can't even follow Lacrosse due to how ridiculous the goalie equipment size is in that sport.

    One thing I note specifically is how much of an advantage there is in goalies to get up and down quickly from the ice.

    One thing I've always found interesting is that the butterfly technique owes its existence to famed Russian goalie Tretiak. Tretiak as many know was a superb athlete who perfected his approach with training. He could get up and down off pads in an instant as many times as required. He was tireless in this regard and he was never out of the play once down.

    Sorry to go on a sidetrip but the 72 series was fascinating for observing goalie styles and revolution in play. Ken Dryden, perceived to be the best NHL goalie of the time, struggled against the skilled russian players, much moreso than he ever did in the NHL. His stand up style was not suitable to playing the USSR. Tony Esposito, who was beat by Dryden many times in the NHL, proved to have a better style to face the Russians.

    I think my meandering is designed to illustrate that goaltending rise and fall is predicated on abilities and tendencies of forwards foisted in front of the goalies. Adaptation, change, and reversion is a constant.

    Gump Worsley is gone but Tim Thomas was his throwback. Styles are ever evolving. If I'm a goalie I'd be firing up video of past approaches and see if any of them work in certiin situations.
     
  5. s7ark

    s7ark RIP

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    Could be for sure. We'll see in a few months if this holds up. It's going to take time for goalies to adjust to their new equipment.

    In terms of entertainment value I agree. I enjoy watching smaller goalies with reflexes like Hasek or Cujo over a giant wall like Roy every day.
     
  6. McGoMcD

    McGoMcD Registered User

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    Speaking of throw back styles, for some reason it made me think of Jon Casey, the Stars goalie in the early 90s, he was the last of the stand up goalies. The guy was a 6th deferenceman most the time. He would be up at the C ice line getting pucks. He didn't butterfly at all. Any way, I don't think it is the end of the butterfly goalie. I think it is the end of the wall of pad goalies though. Where D men just let the shooter shoot and cover the passes across becuase the shooter could never find a hole. There is going to be a bit more holes now, and the goalie can't come out as far since he has to guard against the rap around.
     
  7. bucks_oil

    bucks_oil Registered User

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    Sorry... while I agree Tretiak helped popularize it in the 70's/80's, Glenn Hall wants you to know that your bolded statement is incorrect.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_style

    But to be sure, it has been an interesting evolution.

    When I grew up, Esposito was the butterfly style kids emulated. It was tough! No "landing gear" on goalpads then, so the trick was to land with your knees kinda "trapped" on the inner edge of your leather goalpads, just where the knee strap was. The front face of the pad would be partly touching the ice, but by the time you looked at a goalie's ankle, the pad was facing the shooter. The whole pad itself needed to "twist" from knee thru ankle. The whole movement was completely unnatural and it hurt... hip was rotated, but your toes were still facing out toward the shooter. I can't even get into that position anymore.

    Esposito led to goalies like Fuhr who used the butterfly as a technique in a broader arsenal (including the very popular "half butterfly" where one knee was down and the other leg kicked out with the pad fully facing the shooter... as opposed to a stand-up skate save where the puck was more likely to hit the inside of the pad... think Ranford vs Fuhr). Guys like Fuhr led to the modern "hybrid" goalie (Cujo) .

    Then came Allaire and Roy... who played the "traditional" butterfly... that really awkward movement... its really amazing Roy could play for so many years at a high level!!! He must have been made of gumby.

    But with time and new equipment, we all started talking about "rotation" and "landing gear"... now you could do a butterfly and actually allow your knee to go straight down toward the ice... your ankle was able to move more freely and naturally... so your toes could point toward the ice and your heel up... much less stress at the ankle knee and hip. The first goalies to really popularize this style were the french canadians, especially Theodore, Lalime, Denis, Giguerre, etc... and... oddly, the style allowed goalies like Roloson (who was hybrid) to reinvent themselves and add years to their career.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  8. Lacaar

    Lacaar Registered User

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    That's pretty much my case for smaller goalie equipment. I'm not trying to find ways to increase scoring. I'm hoping to return some excitement back to the goalie position.

    Right now for the most part they're all a bunch of blockers. They get big and balloon out when they anticipate a shot. Then hope the puck hits them and try not to let it rebound out. Gone are the days of the kick save. Heck 90% of the glove saves I'd wager are just the puck finding its way into that massive mitt. It's just not exciting.

    Perhaps they all shoot the puck too fast now and hoping for reaction type saves just isn't really possible.

    I also believe that all these collapsing defensive systems are reliant on the goalies equipment size and style. Instead of trying to prevent the shot they play the odds of letting the shot go and trying to find its way through the myriad of blockers. It results in these passive systems that just turn the first 20 feet in front of the net to a traffic jam.

    It's definitely effective. I just don't find it very exciting to watch seemingly every goal have to go in off someones leg or pad.
     
  9. bucks_oil

    bucks_oil Registered User

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    BTW... I agree with you. To me the most modern embodiment of where goaltending is trending is Carey Price... impeccable pro-fly technique, but less reliant on Roy-esque "blocking" (where size is so important) and more reliant on the type of agility and anticipation seen from hybrid style goalies.
     
  10. Replacement*

    Replacement* Checked out

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    Thanks for the informed response. I should've known about Hall although before my time for the most part. With Esposito I did notice he had at least devoped a hybrid style Tony was pretty revolutionary for his times. Very good goalie.

    Whats your opinion on the half butterfly stance and that perhaps being a better option for goalies that have a lot of trouble with full butterfly? just wondering. Also I wonder if a guy could actually use half butterfly to some success still while slightly coming out to cutdown angle.
     
  11. GMofOilers

    GMofOilers Registered User

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  12. McGoMcD

    McGoMcD Registered User

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    Ya, I agree. I really see that sort of Hybrid is the future. Guys like Price and M.A. Fluery should benefit a lot. Also Guys like Varlamov, Lundquist and N. Backstrom. Also, funny because I thought we should sign him, but Bryzgalov. IT will hurt guys like Rinne and Mike Smith.
     
  13. Fixed to Ruin

    Fixed to Ruin Come wit it now!

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    I think it all comes down to positioning. I feel like larger goalies (Dubnyk included) tend to play deeper in the net relying on their size to stop pucks rather than being more technically sound.

    I'll give an example:

    I find Dubnyk is very guilty of this observation. Let's look at the Trouba goal;



    Most goalies would be way out in the white ice maybe even close to the bottom of the circles to make sure to direct that puck away from the net and most likely into a corner to allow the defense to quickly grab that puck and begin to transition the puck out of the zone. Dubnyk is at the top of the crease trying to make a save with his hands when that puck should hit him squarely in the chest if he was two steps further out of the crease.

    Smaller goalies have to be technically sound if they are ever to survive in the NHL. I find one prime example of a excellent technical goalie is Corey Crawford. Crawford is 6'2 (not big but not small either). He is almost always in excellent position and rarely gives up that soft deflating goal. Go watch some highlights of Crawford there's nothing earth shattering about his game. He's just a steady eddie out there making the saves he's supposed to make.
     
  14. Replacement*

    Replacement* Checked out

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    ^ Its incomprehensible how a goalie with Dubs size wouldn't get out of his net to completely close off the angle on outside shots. No goalie coach told him to stay stuck in the cage like that. One of the weird oddities in his game.

    When he does come out he's swimming like a beached whale and giving up the whole net like on goal number 5. Theres no in between with Dubs, either stuck tight in cage, or rarely wandering out of crease. somebody tell him he can play on lip of crease a lot more and not get lit up a lot doing it.

    I really think Dubs is scared to go out on angles because he has really poor sense of where his posts are. He loses angle and reference so readily. Somehow he seemingly lacks the spatial ability and reasoning sufficient to judge where posts are unless he's banging up against them.

    sigh
     
  15. bucks_oil

    bucks_oil Registered User

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    Great question... You know as I was writing the above, I can't help think that the half-butterfly is really quite influential in the development of the modern pro-fly style. What I mean was that the evolution was kinda like this:

    Standup --> classic butterfly --> hybrid --> profly

    As opposed to:
    Standup --> Hybrid and separately Classic Butterfly --> profly

    Why do I say that? If you think about the position of the non-saving leg in a half-butterfly, it is exactly in the same position as it would be in a profly. The knee is straight down... the ankle is allowed to pronate naturally so the heel points to the sky and toes to the ice. The only difference is that the saving leg is outstretched with your knee off the ice.

    Now let's say you were down in half butterfly using old gear. To get up, you would dig in the skate edge of your outstretched saving leg and stand up. If another shot quickly came to the opposite side, you'd drop again, this time on the opposite knee and kick out the opposite leg. "Do that five times fast" as they say, and before you know it you are skipping the getting up part and just "butterfly" sliding across the net to make that save in the same way a modern profly-er would.

    As for your question... many guys who use the profly also use the half-butterfly. It really just comes down to flexibility. Think about it this way. Two profly-ers are down in a perfectly square butterfly. Knees have even weight on the ice, pads rotated and fully sealed. A shot, perhaps deflected, comes to the left side... The "pure" (more flexible) proflyer will flash his/her left leg out, without breaking the seal of his pad on the ice.

    How? Essentially he/she just rotates his leg out at the hip, using his knee as the fulcrum and swats the puck away. While it looks like he just made a "toe" save, he *actually* made the save with the outside of his ankle. (hard to visualize I know, but imagine being a kid, walking beside your brother/sister and smacking their butt with the outside of your ankle... same move).

    The other guy... well he just lifts his saving knee off the ice and litterally kicks at the puck with his toe... his pad will instantly rotate back to "square" on his leg and the effect is the same as the pure pro-fly guy, except that there will now be space under his leg on the saving side. The advantage this guy has is that he can reach his leg further than the "pure" guy since he's now stretching from the groin as opposed to reaching the limit of his hip rotation/flexibility. The disadvantage is that he needs to be a lot more careful with his stick positioning to ensure the puck doesn't squeeze under him... but he can also control his rebounds a bit better.

    We'd probably say goalie #2 is more "hybrid" in his profly style. I'm less flexible and this is what I tend to do. Really... the only difference (and I had to train myself to do this as an adult when I got my first 'profly' style pads)... is that the old-school half butterfly save, you dropped right into position. The new "profly" adaptation of the same move is to drop into your butterfly and then kick your leg out to "half butterfly" if and only if you need to reach the puck.

    With good positioning then, and an absence of deflections, there is no need for the half-butterfly but it certainly is an advantage to have it in your repertoire.

    To make things even easier on the hips, you can use a "sliding" toe bridge, replace laces with bungees, or get a "toe-hook" to attach pads to skates. All of which allow you more freedom to rotate your ankle.
     
  16. bucks_oil

    bucks_oil Registered User

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    100% agree... I just wish someone would get Corey Crawford to bend the thigh rise of his pads. He always seems to have such a huge gap in his butterfy. I'm amazed it works for him and if he ends up the starter for Team Canada he's gonna give me a heart attack.
     
  17. bucks_oil

    bucks_oil Registered User

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    Couple other points on the original post:

    Classic Profly =
    * big guys
    * big equipment
    * solid positioning
    * blocking
    * that stupid "V-H" position (one leg up, one leg down)

    Classic Hybrid =
    * anticipation & timing
    * agility
    * think like a puck
    * make up for size with athletic ability
    * generally less polished in save positioning (think Cujo or even at the most extreme, Hasek)

    "hybrid profly"... (where I think things are going)
    * true blend of the above...
    * deeper repertoire of save types like "hybrid", but all of the discipline in save positioning from "profly"
    * more emphasis on angles and skating (to make up for size... you just have to be further out, which requires way more powerful lateral pushes to travel more distance)
    * NO V-H!!! (it doesn't work for smaller goalies... completely overused and WAY too passive IMO, you don't challenge the puck carrier enough... plus my hips and knees can't do it anyway haha... )
     
  18. The Nuge

    The Nuge RIP Fugu

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  19. Fixed to Ruin

    Fixed to Ruin Come wit it now!

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  20. The Nuge

    The Nuge RIP Fugu

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    At that point you're limiting what direction you can move. In that instance, why not just butterfly, and then you're good to move one way or the other, and if the rebound comes straight out, simply pop up with both legs
     
  21. Panda Bear

    Panda Bear Registered User

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    "The Rise and the Fall" is a great joke about the butterfly position.
     
  22. Fixed to Ruin

    Fixed to Ruin Come wit it now!

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    Agreed. However its more of a rule of thumb than something set in stone. I want to discuss this more but i'm at work so I don't want to get into it right now.

    This thread gave me a really good analysis idea that I want to work on when I get home. Maybe i'll be famous one day like MC79 Hockey :laugh:
     
  23. McGoMcD

    McGoMcD Registered User

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    Interesting stuff, thanks for this.
     
  24. Beerfish

    Beerfish Registered User

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    I'm really happy about this because I have detested the card board cut out huge goalie trend of the last few years. The good thing is that even with them some of the best goalies overall over the last number of years have not been that style. Hasak, Brodeur, Quick, Thomas all none card board cutouts.
     
  25. Bank Shot

    Bank Shot Registered User

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    How do you define "large" goalies?

    Because of the 82 goalies that played in the NHL last season, only 36 were under 6'2".

    There were only 5 goalies under 6 foot.

    Goalies will continue to get larger, no question. I think you will just start to see more and more large goaltenders that are also agile with good athleticism ie. Rinne.

    We will never see goalies flail about like Ranford again. Goalies nowadays are so polished and mechanical in their movements. You will still see the occasional scramble off a rebound, or after a goal crease crash, but that's about it.
     

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