The Return of the Hartford Whalers

GhostofKenKlee

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Squiddy said:
The devils should really move. They are overshadowed by Flyers, Rangers and to some extent Islanders fans. They can't even grow a fanbase down there no matter what they do.



Relax there moving...


To a Arena in Newark.


Don't talk about things you know nothing about.
 

Squiddy*

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Oct 24, 2005
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Josetheodore said:
Don't talk about things you know nothing about.

WHO DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY'S FANBASE? :shakehead

Not saying that New Jersey doesn't have good fans, but it is just hard to build a fanbase with all those teams around them.
 

pit

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Squiddy said:
WHO DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY'S FANBASE? :shakehead

I believe the state of their fanbase is New Jersey. Though they may have some in other states if they've relocated or bandwagoned their past Cup wins.
 

Resolute

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GWhale said:
Are you unaware how meaningless your opinion is? Because, it's almost as if you expect that I'd care. As for the Canadian cities, I'd agree. Give all three of them teams.

My opinion is precicely as meaningless as yours is. What is your point?

If you didn't care, you wouldn't be arguing.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Squiddy said:
:dunno:

The Knights? Who the heck were they?

The since defunct Knights who now have resurrected themselves in Omaha there Squid, and you thought the IHL was all but brought up here considering the Aeros were part of said league in between the transfer of Calgary from Atlanta in 1980 and the birth of the Thrashers.
 

Squiddy*

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CHRDANHUTCH said:
The since defunct Knights who now have resurrected themselves in Omaha there Squid, and you thought the IHL was all but brought up here considering the Aeros were part of said league in between the transfer of Calgary from Atlanta in 1980 and the birth of the Thrashers.

I don't watch minor league hockey except the WJCs. Please don't say that the AHL is a pro league because realistically it isn't.
 

Rumblick

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CHRDANHUTCH said:
The since defunct Knights who now have resurrected themselves in Omaha there Squid, and you thought the IHL was all but brought up here considering the Aeros were part of said league in between the transfer of Calgary from Atlanta in 1980 and the birth of the Thrashers.
Squiddy said:
I don't watch minor league hockey except the WJCs. Please don't say that the AHL is a pro league because realistically it isn't.

This might be the first time I've ever seen a response to a Hutch post that's even dumber than the one he put out there. Exactly how is it that the AHL doesn't qualify as a pro league?
 

AdmiralPred

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Squiddy said:
I don't watch minor league hockey except the WJCs. Please don't say that the AHL is a pro league because realistically it isn't.
They get paid to play.

I wouldn't rank the AHL as a major pro league in the same sense as the NHL or even the RSL, but I would still call it professional hockey as opposed to amature. As would I the classes of professional baseball.

I would call the WJCs amature, although I guess technically there are professionals, by my definition, playing in that tourney also.
 
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MuzikMachine

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Nov 14, 2005
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Pardon me if I don't know the history of the Whalers...

Didn't the Whalers move because they were in need of a new arena and that attendance figures were low? I always thought that the Whalers averaged closer to the bottom of the list, but maybe that was just in the 90's when the team wasn't successful. If that is the case (low attendance or perceived fan interest), why would the league choose to return to Hartford?

A little aside about the Forbes Vancouver vs. Calgary thing. While the Vancouver CMA is significantly larger than Calgary, Calgary is #2 behind Toronto for most corporate head offices. Even though the population is roughly half, Calgary is largely regarded as the business hub for western Canada.
 

Voice of Reason

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GWhale said:
The Voice of Reason obviously doesn't get out much. MSG's contract has not been renewed, television has nothing to do with why people hate the Wolf Pack, UConn basketball's crowds are sharply declining, and there is a study right now to determine if the HCC needs to be replaced. Maybe before beginning a rant, at least be up to date on current events.

Or perhaps, GWhale, who apparently knows everything, should read a post before he condemns it as wrong.
According to ESPN 1410 a week or so ago, the Hartford area Sportscenter break mentioned the MSG contract being renewed, as did a girl I know who works for Fox 61. If I'm wrong, it's because they're wrong.
I didn't say tv was why people hate the Pack, but no tv won't help anyone who genuinely likes hockey and is living in the present (ie, no Whalers anymore) get interested in them. Since they are the only pro game in town, even you must admit they are doing a lousy job promoting themselves.
The HCC needed to be replaced/upgraded in the 1990s. That's partly why there is now a Carolina Hurricane franchise.

Dude, lighten up. Nobody was disagreeing with you about how great it would be for the Whale to come back.
 

Squiddy*

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Dango said:
This might be the first time I've ever seen a response to a Hutch post that's even dumber than the one he put out there. Exactly how is it that the AHL doesn't qualify as a pro league?

Um maybe because it is a league full farm teams that have players being developed by their parent teams?
 

Resolute

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Squiddy said:
Um maybe because it is a league full farm teams that have players being developed by their parent teams?

Seriously Squiddy, give this one up, cause you aren't winning it.

The AHL, by definition is a pro league. You are confusing the difference between minor-pro (AHL) and major-pro (NHL). It's all professional though.
 

garnetpalmetto

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Squiddy said:
Um maybe because it is a league full farm teams that have players being developed by their parent teams?

They're still pro players though. The difference is that the AHL, ECHL, UHL, and CHL are pro minor leagues. Just as every player in the affiliated minor leagues of baseball is a pro, so are the players in the A, E, U, and C.
 

GWhale*

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Voice of Reason said:
Or perhaps, GWhale, who apparently knows everything, should read a post before he condemns it as wrong.
According to ESPN 1410 a week or so ago, the Hartford area Sportscenter break mentioned the MSG contract being renewed, as did a girl I know who works for Fox 61. If I'm wrong, it's because they're wrong.
I didn't say tv was why people hate the Pack, but no tv won't help anyone who genuinely likes hockey and is living in the present (ie, no Whalers anymore) get interested in them. Since they are the only pro game in town, even you must admit they are doing a lousy job promoting themselves.
The HCC needed to be replaced/upgraded in the 1990s. That's partly why there is now a Carolina Hurricane franchise.

Dude, lighten up. Nobody was disagreeing with you about how great it would be for the Whale to come back.

It's not that I was trying to be terse, just saying that the facts are out there. Fox 61 has been reporting on this story fairly often, and I never heard them (falsely) report that MSG's contract was extended. Actually it's been alluded to by Fox61 that they are out. However, Fox 61 did report that if they were not removed by January 21, they could stay for at least another six years. The CDA came out the next day, and the Courant reported on this, and explained that they could remove them at the end of the fiscal year (June 30, 2006)

As for the Wolf Pack, they do a lousy job in every thing (off the ice). Their marketing isn't why I don't support them though. The Rangers could pay thousands to market to just to me, and I still wouldn't support them.
 

GWhale*

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garnetpalmetto said:
They're still pro players though. The difference is that the AHL, ECHL, UHL, and CHL are pro minor leagues. Just as every player in the affiliated minor leagues of baseball is a pro, so are the players in the A, E, U, and C.

It's a league full of professionals. But still, since the players are owned by NHL teams, but not playing in NHL games, I think the term "reserve league" should be used. Just my opinion.
 

GWhale*

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Editorial

Editorial from yesterday's Hartford Courant

http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/editorials/hc-hockey.artdec27,0,6030849.story

Don't Put Hockey Hopes On Ice
December 27, 2005
No one can ever accuse state government of being impulsive. Connecticut could change its motto to "When in doubt, commission a study." But economic opportunity must sometimes be allowed to dictate the pace of progress.

That is the case with the Hartford Civic Center and a proposal from Howard Baldwin, a movie producer and former owner of the late lamented Hartford Whalers. Mr. Baldwin wants to bring major-league hockey back to the city. And he wants to get started before the fervor for the sport fades away.

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It may be, as some fear, a pipe dream. But he has offered to do what it takes to makes this happen."

http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/editorials/hc-hockey.artdec27,0,6030849.story
 

Rumblick

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GWhale said:
It's a league full of professionals. But still, since the players are owned by NHL teams, but not playing in NHL games, I think the term "reserve league" should be used. Just my opinion.

I've never heard the term "reserve league" in relation to ANY minor league sport. Curious as to the origin of the term.

Also, it's a fallacy to think that all minor pro players are under contract to NHL teams.

However, the mere fact that they are drawing a salary (and that they don't have second jobs in-season) makes them professionals. That's just the way it is.
 

GWhale*

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Dango said:
I've never heard the term "reserve league" in relation to ANY minor league sport. Curious as to the origin of the term.

Also, it's a fallacy to think that all minor pro players are under contract to NHL teams.

However, the mere fact that they are drawing a salary (and that they don't have second jobs in-season) makes them professionals. That's just the way it is.

I've taken it from soccer. There is a thick line between professional and amateur.
However, the whole major league/minor league thing is from baseball. I don't know why hockey tried to follow that. If the NHL allowed competitive second division teams, non-NHL (first division) markets would really draw many more fans. But, I'm off topic.
 

Voice of Reason

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GWhale said:
It's not that I was trying to be terse, just saying that the facts are out there. Fox 61 has been reporting on this story fairly often, and I never heard them (falsely) report that MSG's contract was extended. Actually it's been alluded to by Fox61 that they are out. However, Fox 61 did report that if they were not removed by January 21, they could stay for at least another six years. The CDA came out the next day, and the Courant reported on this, and explained that they could remove them at the end of the fiscal year (June 30, 2006)

As for the Wolf Pack, they do a lousy job in every thing (off the ice). Their marketing isn't why I don't support them though. The Rangers could pay thousands to market to just to me, and I still wouldn't support them.

I don't want to beat this into the ground, but I think you're missing my point. While it would be great to have the NHL back in hartford, there are still some pretty substantial issues that need to be worked out before that can happen. My point is, in general, it may not be as easy as just building an arena and holding up a blank check. I truly hope it is, though.
One of the main sticking points I see is how hockey is perceived by the NHL in Hartford. The Whale did a mediocre job of drawing fans (very fair weather and really only came out when the team was winning or the initial threat of a move came up). The A draws nobody for a variety of reasons. For some, it's the NYR affiliation. For others, it's the level of competition. For still others, it's the lack of exposure to the team to make you want to go to a game. Aside from the lame commercials every now and then, the Pack gets virtually zero attention. I work downtown and can hit the HCC with a well-thrown rock from my office, but I couldn't tell you when the next home game was or what the standings are. Lots of that is my own fault, but the info on the team is not stressed in the media and I honestly don't care enough to go look it up. Long story short, the casual hockey fan is not being reached well.
Should things work out to the point of a team agreeing to move here, the NHL gets to approve/disapprove it. If they don't see a strong support for what's in place now, they may get cold feet and reject it. Let's face it, the NHL and Bettman do not have the interest of the Hartford hockey community in mind. They want to go where they can turn a buck
 

GWhale*

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Unfortunately, I don't understand the NHL's collective thought process. Had I been in charge, I would've done many things differently over the past twenty years, and believe that the league would be much better off. But I don't work for the NHL.

Perhaps if they look at Hartford, they'd see no competition from other professional sports, lots of full rinks surrounding the city with abundant youth and scholastic ice hockey programs, a surprisingly large population within a short distance, etc. They could look at the Whalers attendance records and say that when the Whalers had it together, they nearly always sold out, only when the team fell apart did attendance drop.

Or they could say they'd rather have another failing southern team. Who knows.

Then again, if the NHL is trying to promote a "free market", I'd think with the current conditions in Hartford a team could end up there by market forces. I'd suppose the owners just want healthy teams anywhere, now that the national television contract dream is over.

Voice of Reason said:
I don't want to beat this into the ground, but I think you're missing my point. While it would be great to have the NHL back in hartford, there are still some pretty substantial issues that need to be worked out before that can happen. My point is, in general, it may not be as easy as just building an arena and holding up a blank check. I truly hope it is, though.
One of the main sticking points I see is how hockey is perceived by the NHL in Hartford. The Whale did a mediocre job of drawing fans (very fair weather and really only came out when the team was winning or the initial threat of a move came up). The A draws nobody for a variety of reasons. For some, it's the NYR affiliation. For others, it's the level of competition. For still others, it's the lack of exposure to the team to make you want to go to a game. Aside from the lame commercials every now and then, the Pack gets virtually zero attention. I work downtown and can hit the HCC with a well-thrown rock from my office, but I couldn't tell you when the next home game was or what the standings are. Lots of that is my own fault, but the info on the team is not stressed in the media and I honestly don't care enough to go look it up. Long story short, the casual hockey fan is not being reached well.
Should things work out to the point of a team agreeing to move here, the NHL gets to approve/disapprove it. If they don't see a strong support for what's in place now, they may get cold feet and reject it. Let's face it, the NHL and Bettman do not have the interest of the Hartford hockey community in mind. They want to go where they can turn a buck
 

Pielsman

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New Arena Plan for Hartford

Push for New Arena, NHL Team for Hartford

12/28/05- WFSB Hartford

HARTFORD (AP) -- Eight years after the Whalers left Hartford, a developer says he is considering bringing another National Hockey League team to the capital city that would play in a new $250 million arena he wants to build.

"We've got our own money, we're willing to invest in an arena, and we're willing to buy a team," said Lawrence R. Gottesdiener, head of Northland Investment Corp. "It would be an important entity and symbol of the city, the region and the state to provide a first-class venue for the residents."

Northland owns $500 million worth of property in Hartford. Gottesdiener's plan calls for building a publicly subsidized, 16,000-seat sports and entertainment venue that would be home to a major league hockey team.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is only partial. Link/ address below to the story from WFSB in Hartford.

http://wfsb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4296922
 
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