The Prospects Thread XXV - Stats, Lists in OP

[ahmon]

We haven't even seen what Cassels or Boeser can do, so it's premature to say they're good pieces to build around. We think they are, but people also thought Nick Jensen was a good piece to build around when they were happy we didn't trade him for help at the 2013 trade deadline.

I'm excited at seeing what Virtanen and Baertschi can do. But then the realist in me realizes they won't be given much of a chance anytime soon.

If we need to see what they can do at the NHL first, then everyone would know at that point.

No need to say....

There were red flags with Jensen, just people didn't pay attention.

- In his first WJC, he was lazy, didn't share the puck, weak without the puck, etc..
- His production in the OHL didn't really improve post-draft
- In his 2nd WJC, again he was lazy, didn't use his teammates, weak without the puck.
- He went to play in Europe, when IMO he should have played in the AHL to refine aspects of his game (puck battles, intensity, defensive play).

What we have is a 6'3 floater that lacks intensity and looks lost. He has size, shot, and hands. He never developed much post-draft. And signs definitely were there early.

Both Virtanen/Baertschi are very high risk too.



Cole Cassels will be a NHLer you can quote me on that. He is too smart and alert. If not for Mcdavid, he would have likely been the OHL MVP like Horvat.

Brock Boeser will be a sniper. His release, ability to find open spots, he competes hard for puck battles, goes to the net.

 

[Skirbs1011]

Brock Boeser will be a sniper. His release, ability to find open spots, he competes hard for puck battles, goes to the net.

This is yet to be seen, IMO a 3rd line Canadian kid from the CHL could go to the USHL and score 35 goals. Personally for me to validate his goal scoring ability I would have liked to see him translate those numbers to the CHL, where the compete level and skill of players is greater than what is in the USHL.

Not taking anything from Boeser, I am just not sure if he puts those up those goals playing against Dmen like Provarov, Nurse, Bowey, ect ect depending what league he was in. When you look at last years draft no Dmen From the USHL were taken in the 1st or 2nd round.

 

[ahmon]

This is yet to be seen, IMO a 3rd line Canadian kid from the CHL could go to the USHL and score 35 goals. Personally for me to validate his goal scoring ability I would have liked to see him translate those numbers to the CHL, where the compete level and skill of players is greater than what is in the USHL.

Not taking anything from Boeser, I am just not sure if he puts those up those goals playing against Dmen like Provarov, Nurse, Bowey, ect ect depending what league he was in. When you look at last years draft no Dmen From the USHL were taken in the 1st or 2nd round.

That's hyperbole. USHL is not that weak.

35 goals led the ENTIRE league in scoring. Kyle Connor fell short of 35 goals, I guess his scoring ability is equivalent to a 3rd line CHL player?

USHL talent and quality has risen a lot in the last few years.
There has been a lot of very good NHL forwards drafted from the USHL.

Hard to compare CHL to USHL. But there is a Minor World Cup (since 2011) where junior teams from Europe, USHL and CHL compete.

The USHL have medaled in 3 straight years.

 

[Seattle Totems]

Last i saw...he was either hanging out on a beach, or...

Thinking about giving up the whole "hockey player" thing in favour of auditioning as the new "Johnny Canuck" mascot.

Or possibly auditioning for the role of "New Big Zack"?

I thought that was Roadhouse era Patrick Swayze

 

[Skirbs1011]

That's hyperbole. USHL is not that weak.

35 goals led the ENTIRE league in scoring. Kyle Connor fell short of 35 goals, I guess his scoring ability is equivalent to a 3rd line CHL player?

USHL talent and quality has risen a lot in the last few years.
There has been a lot of very good NHL forwards drafted from the USHL.

Hard to compare CHL to USHL. But there is a Minor World Cup (since 2011) where junior teams from Europe, USHL and CHL compete.

The USHL have medaled in 3 straight years.

Of course like i said its my opinion, but it is a fact that the USHL is a weaker league then any of the CHL leagues. And like i said looking just at the Dmen drafted out of the USHL in the last 3 years, where has Boeser had to play against a top Dman like Provrov, Nurse or Bowey for examples that were out there to shut him down?

I am just saying scoring 35 goals in the USHL holds less value than scoring 35 goals say in the OHL. But to come out now and say he WILL be a sniper is a bit of a stretch, its yet to be seen what he can do on a consistent basis against the top Junior talent over the course of a season.

Yes the USHL has got some better talent over the years, but spread that talent across the whole league, there are still some very weak teams in the league.

 

[banme*]

This is yet to be seen, IMO a 3rd line Canadian kid from the CHL could go to the USHL and score 35 goals. Personally for me to validate his goal scoring ability I would have liked to see him translate those numbers to the CHL, where the compete level and skill of players is greater than what is in the USHL.

Not taking anything from Boeser, I am just not sure if he puts those up those goals playing against Dmen like Provarov, Nurse, Bowey, ect ect depending what league he was in. When you look at last years draft no Dmen From the USHL were taken in the 1st or 2nd round.

Well he'll be playing div 1 next year which is a much harder league to score in than any CHL league, so you'll get to see whether he can translate his goal scoring then.

 

[CanaFan]

Of course like i said its my opinion, but it is a fact that the USHL is a weaker league then any of the CHL leagues. And like i said looking just at the Dmen drafted out of the USHL in the last 3 years, where has Boeser had to play against a top Dman like Provrov, Nurse or Bowey for examples that were out there to shut him down?

I am just saying scoring 35 goals in the USHL holds less value than scoring 35 goals say in the OHL. But to come out now and say he WILL be a sniper is a bit of a stretch, its yet to be seen what he can do on a consistent basis against the top Junior talent over the course of a season.

Yes the USHL has got some better talent over the years, but spread that talent across the whole league, there are still some very weak teams in the league.

I'm alright with being cautious on Boeser, but his 35 goals led the entire league so regardless of what you think of the D, it isn't a high scoring league and Boeser scored (goals) the best.

He also co-led the Ivan Hlinka in goals last summer. Check out the Canadian roster for the quality of that tourney.

 

[The Drop]

Funny, the team goes down 3-0 and what do they do? They battle harder to get back in. But I guess if it were the Stanley Cup Finals it would have been acceptable for the Flames to just quit on the game and let their goalie get ventilated for 8 goals. That seems to be the Vancouver mentality anyway.

That game 6, packaged with what we've seen from this team year after year in the playoffs is THE perfect example for why this team needs to be blown up. Our leadership core is fragile. The Sedins aren't leaders when it comes to the playoffs, nor do they have the game to take the team on their backs and win a game or two when needed. When the games get physical, our team wilts. When the other team gets off to a fast start, we wilt and have zero pushback. This isn't a coaching problem. This isn't a 3rd or 4th line problem. This is a core problem. Why some people can't realize this I don't know. Maybe people have a problem with no longer cheering for their childhood heroes. Either way, this team is going nowhere under this core. I've said this since the end of 2012, and nothing we've seen has proven me wrong.

I agree that they should have yanked Luongo after 2 goals in games 3,4,6,7 and perhaps it could have changed the momentum.

 

[Skirbs1011]

I'm alright with being cautious on Boeser, but his 35 goals led the entire league so regardless of what you think of the D, it isn't a high scoring league and Boeser scored (goals) the best.

He also co-led the Ivan Hlinka in goals last summer. Check out the Canadian roster for the quality of that tourney.

I am glad that he scored the goals dont get me wrong, my point is ppl shouldn't say this player "will be a sniper" at the NHL level. Do I think he has upside, yes. But until he proves it consistently over the course of a full season against high caliber players I will hold my judgement

 

[CanaFan]

I am glad that he scored the goals dont get me wrong, my point is ppl shouldn't say this player "will be a sniper" at the NHL level. Do I think he has upside, yes. But until he proves it consistently over the course of a full season against high caliber players I will hold my judgement

I agree that any prospect should be held in a cautious light, I just wanted to suggest it is no different with Boeser just because he played in the USHL. I'd be just as cautious with an equivalent CHL player too.

 

[Verviticus]

chopping wood like that is really fun though

 

[Huggy]

My sides are splitting from all these log jokes

 

[ahmon]

I am glad that he scored the goals dont get me wrong, my point is ppl shouldn't say this player "will be a sniper" at the NHL level. Do I think he has upside, yes. But until he proves it consistently over the course of a full season against high caliber players I will hold my judgement

Any prospect is an unknown. Thats obvious.

I am high on boeser because i predict him to be great. You can disagree with that.

But your point on the Ushl was out of line. It might be inferior to the Chl in general, but the gap is surely not as big as you implied.

I really really doubt any 3rd line CHl player can lead the Ushl in goals. Its hyperbole.

Boeser will likely be a better goalscorer than both Virtanen and McCann. Thats what i see.

 

[fancouver]

But your point on the Ushl was out of line. It might be inferior to the Chl in general, but the gap is surely not as big as you implied.

I really really doubt any 3rd line CHl player can lead the Ushl in goals. Its hyperbole.

Boeser will likely be a better goalscorer than both Virtanen and McCann. Thats what i see.

That's way too early to tell. In the words of Benning, all 3 players 'rip the puck'. All 3 players have hit 30+ goals with Virtanen having a 45 goal season.

And even you admit the USHL may be 'a bit' more inferior to the CHL, so that would imply getting 30 goals in the CHL would be 'a bit' more impressive.

Regardless, Benning's 1st round mantra is obvious so far. You gotta have a heavy shot.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Regardless, Benning's 1st round mantra is obvious so far. You gotta have a heavy shot.

Doesn't apply to actual NHLers on the team.

 

[CanaFan]

That's way too early to tell. In the words of Benning, all 3 players 'rip the puck'. All 3 players have hit 30+ goals with Virtanen having a 45 goal season.

And even you admit the USHL may be 'a bit' more inferior to the CHL, so that would imply getting 30 goals in the CHL would be 'a bit' more impressive.

Regardless, Benning's 1st round mantra is obvious so far. You gotta have a heavy shot.

Except scoring 30 goals in the USHL is much rarer, with just 6 players hitting 30+ goals last season. Granted a number of USNTDP players would have likely hit 30 if they'd played more games, but even then there is probably fewer than a dozen 30 goal scorers across the 17 teams. That is less than 1 30 goal scorer per team.

Compare to the WHL where there were 31 30+ goal scorers (22 teams), the OHL where there were 31 (20 teams), and QMJHL where there were 35 (18 teams). That's 97 players over 60 teams or over 1.5 per team.

Doesn't necessarily mean USHL is a better league but certainly scoring 30 goals is more 'unique' in the USHL than the CHL. Number of games definitely plays a role, as there are only 60 games in USHL season vs 68/72 in the CHL. But that still speaks to the difficulty of Boeser's 35 goals in 57 games, which is a 42 goal pace over an OHL season and 44 in a full WHL season.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Except scoring 30 goals in the USHL is much rarer, with just 6 players hitting 30+ goals last season. Granted a number of USNTDP players would have likely hit 30 if they'd played more games, but even then there is probably fewer than a dozen 30 goal scorers across the 17 teams. That is less than 1 30 goal scorer per team.

Compare to the WHL where there were 31 30+ goal scorers (22 teams), the OHL where there were 31 (20 teams), and QMJHL where there were 35 (18 teams). That's 97 players over 60 teams or over 1.5 per team.

Doesn't necessarily mean USHL is a better league but certainly scoring 30 goals is more 'unique' in the USHL than the CHL. Number of games definitely plays a role, as there are only 60 games in USHL season vs 68/72 in the CHL. But that still speaks to the difficulty of Boeser's 35 goals in 57 games, which is a 42 goal pace over an OHL season and 44 in a full WHL season.

I actually think that if Boeser had played in the CHL rather than the USHL that he would have been a much higher draft pick. What he did in the USHL was impressive, and he looked very good at international tournaments.

Why would anyone complain about bringing in players who can score? After watching a team for years only have players who are great at passing the puck, and other players who are grinders, I would think adding some snipers would be a welcome concept.

 

[fancouver]

Except scoring 30 goals in the USHL is much rarer, with just 6 players hitting 30+ goals last season. Granted a number of USNTDP players would have likely hit 30 if they'd played more games, but even then there is probably fewer than a dozen 30 goal scorers across the 17 teams. That is less than 1 30 goal scorer per team.

Compare to the WHL where there were 31 30+ goal scorers (22 teams), the OHL where there were 31 (20 teams), and QMJHL where there were 35 (18 teams). That's 97 players over 60 teams or over 1.5 per team.

Doesn't necessarily mean USHL is a better league but certainly scoring 30 goals is more 'unique' in the USHL than the CHL. Number of games definitely plays a role, as there are only 60 games in USHL season vs 68/72 in the CHL. But that still speaks to the difficulty of Boeser's 35 goals in 57 games, which is a 42 goal pace over an OHL season and 44 in a full WHL season.

Boeser hitting 35 is certainly impressive, but by the numbers, the CHL produces more talent than the USHL (ie. using 30+ goals as an indicator for talent). So it's hard to say whether Boeser was 'unique' or benefiting from the lack of competition in the USHL.

As you say, there are a lot of 30+ goal scorers in the CHL...OHL in particular, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's less difficult compared to the USHL.

The past 5 drafts also prove that scouts prefer guys in the CHL. At least in the top 10 rankings.

 

[CanaFan]

Boeser hitting 35 is certainly impressive, but by the numbers, the CHL produces more talent than the USHL (ie. using 30+ goals as an indicator for talent). So it's hard to say whether Boeser was 'unique' or benefiting from the lack of competition in the USHL.

As you say, there are a lot of 30+ goal scorers in the CHL...OHL in particular, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's less difficult compared to the USHL.

The past 5 drafts also prove that scouts prefer guys in the CHL. At least in the top 10 rankings.

I get that but I'm not talking about which league produces more players - the CHL does for sure but then it also has 5x the teams, has been around longer, and half the USHL kids get drafted out of College rather than the USHL (for example Eichel, Hanifin, and Werenski are all USHL players who were old enough to play College in their draft year).

But just looking at goal production, you can't devalue Boeser's 35 goals just because it's USHL. If anything the fact that it is less frequent in the USHL makes his production more impressive, not less.

*Edit: to address your point about more 30 goal scorers indicating more "talent", that doesn't necessarily follow. The NHL in the 80's had more 30 goal scorers than today but that doesn't mean it had more talent, in fact it indicated a lower level of defensive-talent. The prevalence of goals in the CHL may mean it is easier to score in than the USHL, which certainly isn't a negative for the USHL.

 

[arsmaster*]

For comparison's sake the BCHL only had 9 players crack 30 goals.

The BCHL and USHL are both junior A leagues.

major junior has stiffer competition.

 

[CanaFan]

For comparison's sake the BCHL only had 9 players crack 30 goals.

The BCHL and USHL are both junior A leagues.

major junior has stiffer competition.

Fair point. I don't doubt that Boeser would have done well in the CHL though. His skill set isn't "junior" based.

 

[ahmon]

For comparison's sake the BCHL only had 9 players crack 30 goals.

The BCHL and USHL are both junior A leagues.

major junior has stiffer competition.

I think there was like 1 player from BCHL drafted in 2015.

On the other hand, there were 31 players from USHL. Even you take out the US NTDP (11), the amount of players drafted from the USHL is massive compared to the BCHL.

The trend is that there are more and more players drafted from USHL.

In fact, last year there were more players drafted out of USHL (22) than the QMJHL(17).
And the Q has more teams I believe.

Personally, I think the quality in USHL is much closer to major junior than to the BCHL.

There are scouts who believe the USHL is as strong as the Q.

Boeser leading the USHL in goal scoring and getting selected in the 1st team all-star as a draft eligible player is very impressive. Its somewhat comparable to being one of the top scorers in the Q imo.

The WHL/OHL were/are clearly superior.

 

[arsmaster*]

I don't watch the ushl so I can't comment on the game play. But watching one game of the junior A challenge the USA roster after Boeser, Connor and Novak was hardly impressive.

Either way. I'm hopeful for Boeser. I'm not even sure of the context of the convo. Just jumped in.

 

[Skirbs1011]

I see I started something on Boeser.

To start with I am not taking anything away from Boeser. But in terms of most scouts, most fans and the general public it is obvious the CHL leagues are better caliber, tougher competition, thus making it harder to maintain a level of play over a full season.

I am happy as hell Boeser scored that many goals, but for validation to the general public and average fan, I wish he put up those numbers in the CHL, this is Vancouver a Canadian market where most ppl dont know the level of play in the USHL, as it has been very poor in past years. So Boeser scoring 30+ goals in the OHL or WHL would hold more weight than Scoring 30+ in the USHL.

 

[Snow Horvat]

Looking forward to tracking his season at UND. We'll have a better grip on where he's at soon.