Speculation: The Problem - Grinders, Did Dubas fail?

AuraSphere

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
4,184
2,242
Whether it be the VGK, Isles, or MTL, we're seeing that the teams that thrive in the playoffs and beat high skill teams are these teams composed of hard-working individuals that are puck hungry.

On the leafs? Only Hyman and maybe Kerfoot plays a style similar to the above.

Looking back, the players that fit this criteria:
1) Connor Brown
2) Kasperi Kapanen
3) Nazem Kadri
4) Matt Martin
5) Leo Komarov (although I know isn't good now)

We traded all 5 for softer players or to sign our high skilled players.

Based off today's NHL, did dubas clearly build the wrong team?
 

shaner82

Registered User
Apr 18, 2017
1,379
1,452
It's never that simple. Drafting Nylander, Marner and Matthews were no brainers. Every GM would have taken those guys. JT at this point in his career is more of a worker than a finesse guy. AM was also busting his ass out there. So even if Marner and Nylander aren't the right guys, show me a GM who wouldn't have drafted them at the time?

Kadri was tough to lose, but he forced the trade. He killed us in the playoffs 2 years in a row and has just done it again to Colorado. He also had a NTC, so the options were limited.

Brown has significantly improved, but he wasn't a particularly good player for us. Same with kapanen. Those things happen in sports. Guys develop at different speeds and they play differently in different systems.

Dubas brought in plenty of leadership and grit. Arguably too much. I'd rather a small, skilled guy over Thornton
 
  • Like
Reactions: stickty111

Smif

Registered User
Jan 23, 2008
9,810
3,646
Hamilton
Whether it be the VGK, Isles, or MTL, we're seeing that the teams that thrive in the playoffs and beat high skill teams are these teams composed of hard-working individuals that are puck hungry.

On the leafs? Only Hyman and maybe Kerfoot plays a style similar to the above.

Looking back, the players that fit this criteria:
1) Connor Brown
2) Kasperi Kapanen
3) Nazem Kadri
4) Matt Martin
5) Leo Komarov (although I know isn't good now)

We traded all 5 for softer players or to sign our high skilled players.

Based off today's NHL, did dubas clearly build the wrong team?
Connor Brown and Kapanen wouldn't aren't the players toure describing. Hyman had 1 point on a flukey goal while being setup repeatedly by Matthews and Marner. Kadri skips playoffs and Martin and Leo have combined for 3 assists this year, c'mon...
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,552
6,730
Orillia, Ontario
It's never that simple. Drafting Nylander, Marner and Matthews were no brainers. Every GM would have taken those guys. JT at this point in his career is more of a worker than a finesse guy. AM was also busting his ass out there. So even if Marner and Nylander aren't the right guys, show me a GM who wouldn't have drafted them at the time?

Kadri was tough to lose, but he forced the trade. He killed us in the playoffs 2 years in a row and has just done it again to Colorado. He also had a NTC, so the options were limited.

Brown has significantly improved, but he wasn't a particularly good player for us. Same with kapanen. Those things happen in sports. Guys develop at different speeds and they play differently in different systems.

Dubas brought in plenty of leadership and grit. Arguably too much. I'd rather a small, skilled guy over Thornton

All grit in the bottom 6 and none in the top 6 doesn’t work.
 

Jimmy Firecracker

Fire Sheldon.
Mar 30, 2010
35,559
34,106
Mississauga
Komarov and Martin were being underutilized by Babcock. Kadri took himself out by being an idiot and costing us in the playoffs, much like he may do to Colorado this season. Kapanen? Talk about revisionist history, he was never and isn’t considered a grit grinder. Brown was a sacrifice to remove Zaitsev. In hindsight maybe you wish Leafs traded Johnsson but if Johnsson scores like 40 points this season with Ottawa and we still lose maybe we bitch about him not being here and how he would’ve added secondary scoring.

Also Brown and Kapanen are too expensive to keep. Komarov too for that matter. The only contracts that would be worth making it work are Martin and Kadri.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Kurtz

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
26,557
32,810
Dubas wanted to keep Brown but couldn't because the deal Lou gave to Zaitsev.
Kapanen is a low IQ player.
Kadri is a playoff choker and costed his team 4 straight years. Seriously do people even pay attention outside the Leafs? People are still complaining about losing him? Do they just look at 2 years previous narratives and conclude Dubas doesn't know what he is doing?
Martin was benched by Babcock and since Babcock was being kept, Dubas did the right thing and traded him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: banks and Kurtz

stickty111

Registered User
Jan 23, 2017
26,557
32,810
Komarov and Martin were being underutilized by Babcock. Kadri took himself out by being an idiot and costing us in the playoffs, much like he may do to Colorado this season. Kapanen? Talk about revisionist history, he was never and isn’t considered a grit grinder. Brown was a sacrifice to remove Zaitsev. In hindsight maybe you wish he traded Johnsson but if Johnsson scores like 40 points this season with Ottawa and we still lose maybe we bitch about him not being here and how he would’ve added secondary scoring.

Also Brown and Kapanen are too expensive to keep. Komarov too for that matter. The only contracts that would be worth making it work are Martin and Kadri.
Like there are plenty of criticisms of Dubas, but these 4 players being one is so silly.

Leafs fans "our leaders are chokers and can't step up"
Also Leafs fans "Dubas is awful for trading Kadri who has costed 2 different teams 2 different years in the playoffs".

Dubas did exactly what this fanbase wanted and the result was the 3-1 callapse. The funny thing is if Dubas kept the same team that lost to Columbus and only improved the defence in Brodie and Bogosian, the team beats Montreal.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,552
6,730
Orillia, Ontario
Dubas did exactly what this fanbase wanted and the result was the 3-1 callapse.

I can’t believe some people cheer against the team just so they can be right!

The funny thing is if Dubas kept the same team that lost to Columbus and only improved the defence in Brodie and Bogosian, the team beats Montreal.

You can’t have Bogosian - he’s bad grit and leadership!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cleetus

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
13,819
8,327
The problem isn’t Dubas, the problem is the league operates under two sets of rules. Can you imagine in the post season opposing players were suddenly allowed to tackle and haul down Lebrun and it was considered good post season basketball?

It’s ludicrous that teams need to play one way to win in the regular season and another to win in the playoffs.
 

sparxx87

Don Quixote
Jan 5, 2010
13,834
4,705
Toronto
Look how many people wanted to see the goalie fail over the year, just to prove their goalie choice was better.
I would say you’re talking about a select group.

Most want to see the team succeed. Everyone has opinions on what’s good and bad. When the team does mostly all bad in your opinion and loses in spectacular fashion, again, it can be pretty frustrating.

Most would trade being right for being wrong if it meant the team goes farther.
 

sparxx87

Don Quixote
Jan 5, 2010
13,834
4,705
Toronto
I agree, but that wasn't the case. While he's not a grinder, Matthews played his ass off. He was crashing and banging all series. Foligno (when he played) and Hyman were in the top 6 and have plenty of grit.
Not necessarily that simple. Part of the gritty approach is playing in the dirty areas down low and around the net.

This specifically is where they’re lacking. They’re still a perimeter team.
 

yubbers

Grown Menzez
May 1, 2013
36,053
5,039
Dubas tried to backtrack on his all-skill vision with no cap space left. Rooting through other teams' garbage bins cause you f***ed your cap isn't the way to add grit. Timing is everything. We needed Simmonds many deadlines ago when Kadri got suspended the first time. He went for peanuts too.
 

jaric1862

Registered User
Jan 14, 2014
4,000
1,753
I don't know if its grinder as much as it is depth. Those guys were quality depth pieces and are now being replaced with much lesser albeit cheaper players.
 

Donnie740

Registered User
May 28, 2021
1,316
1,939
Dubas brought in plenty of leadership and grit. Arguably too much. I'd rather a small, skilled guy over Thornton

No, he didn’t.

Wayne Simmons was one of the best power forwards in the league - - TEN (10) years ago. Now he’s a washed up shell of himself.

Joe Thornton has been one of the biggest playoff chokers in NHL history. That’s why Boston dumped him. And why SJ was such a huge disappointment every postseason. Impossible to bring any type of leadership when you’ve been a career loser. Slow and hopelessly unable to keep up with the play and doesn’t provide an ounce of grit or tenacity at this point.

Nick Foligno was damaged goods when he arrived in Toronto and spent most of his time sitting in the press box. Like Thornton, he’s another career loser. ONE (1) season of advancing beyond the 1st round.

Riley Trash? Garbage.

Jim Vesey? Snowflake.

Travis Boyd? Who?
 

Leafs87

Mr. Steal Your Job
Aug 10, 2010
14,712
4,777
Toronto
Whether it be the VGK, Isles, or MTL, we're seeing that the teams that thrive in the playoffs and beat high skill teams are these teams composed of hard-working individuals that are puck hungry.

On the leafs? Only Hyman and maybe Kerfoot plays a style similar to the above.

Looking back, the players that fit this criteria:
1) Connor Brown
2) Kasperi Kapanen
3) Nazem Kadri
4) Matt Martin
5) Leo Komarov (although I know isn't good now)

We traded all 5 for softer players or to sign our high skilled players.

Based off today's NHL, did dubas clearly build the wrong team?

Based on every days game he built the wrong team. Marner, Matthews Nylander are great to have on any team. Tavares wasn’t needed having already had the 3. Not at a internal cap setting price especially. His issue is trying to run 4 skilled lines with very little compete. It doesn’t let Matthews and Marner play their game.
He fixed the backend somewhat well I’d say last year. This year he or whoever needs to round out the forward group with heavier playstyle players.
If that doesn’t work(which there is a high chance) cause of how the caps set up, you almost have to look at blowing it up. Matthews only has 3 years after this unfortunately. That contract at that cap for 5 years still boggles my mind. Then you ask Hyman to take a discount, lol doesn’t work like that
 

Donnie740

Registered User
May 28, 2021
1,316
1,939
Based on every days game he built the wrong team. Marner, Matthews Nylander are great to have on any team. Tavares wasn’t needed having already had the 3. Not at a internal cap setting price especially. His issue is trying to run 4 skilled lines with very little compete. It doesn’t let Matthews and Marner play their game.
He fixed the backend somewhat well I’d say last year. This year he or whoever needs to round out the forward group with heavier playstyle players.
If that doesn’t work(which there is a high chance) cause of how the caps set up, you almost have to look at blowing it up. Matthews only has 3 years after this unfortunately. That contract at that cap for 5 years still boggles my mind. Then you ask Hyman to take a discount, lol doesn’t work like that


You make some excellent points.

Filling a roster with only finesse perimeter type players had ZERO chance at playoff success.

Leafs problem is twofold - - they need to add several physical grinders and aggressive forecheckers to the bottom six AND they have to change their style of play to eliminate this ridiculous puck-possession strategy.

Adding the best grinders in the league won’t do anything to help if they’re forced to skate circles in the neutral zone and move the puck backwards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: geo25 and Leafs87

WestCoastLeafs

I beleaf
Jun 10, 2013
2,667
876
Connor Brown and Kapanen wouldn't aren't the players toure describing. Hyman had 1 point on a flukey goal while being setup repeatedly by Matthews and Marner. Kadri skips playoffs and Martin and Leo have combined for 3 assists this year, c'mon...

Add to this that every player picked up at the deadline was a grinder. And what do we have to show for it? A "rate Dubas at the deadline" thread.
 

AuraSphere

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
4,184
2,242
I can’t believe some people cheer against the team just so they can be right!



You can’t have Bogosian - he’s bad grit and leadership!

The D was actually really good. I wouldn't have changed the D at all, I think we had a contender level D corpse, just wouldn't have Sandin over Dermott (although ik dermott is the reason we lost game 6 in OT).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Menzinger

Donnie740

Registered User
May 28, 2021
1,316
1,939
The D was actually really good. I wouldn't have changed the D at all, I think we had a contender level D corpse, just wouldn't have Sandin over Dermott (although ik dermott is the reason we lost game 6 in OT).

Overall the defence wasn’t actually that strong. Three of the losses were direct results of brutal screw ups by the defence.

Rielly was great, Muzzin was good. Brodie and Bogosian were steady.

Dermott struggled and singlehandedly cost the Leafs a game.

Sandin was God-awful and singlehandedly cost the Leafs TWO (2) games.
 

Leafs87

Mr. Steal Your Job
Aug 10, 2010
14,712
4,777
Toronto
You make some excellent points.

Filling a roster with only finesse perimeter type players had ZERO chance at playoff success.

Leafs problem is twofold - - they need to add several physical grinders and aggressive forecheckers to the bottom six AND they have to change their style of play to eliminate this ridiculous puck-possession strategy.

Adding the best grinders in the league won’t do anything to help if they’re forced to skate circles in the neutral zone and move the puck backwards.

Yes I agree,
I would also add some heavier players to the two top six spots not occupied by the big 4. Ideally even bring Foligno back as one of the two if we lose Hyman
 

JayfromNB1219

Registered User
Mar 27, 2019
2,087
1,171
New Brunswick
Dubas wanted to keep Brown but couldn't because the deal Lou gave to Zaitsev.
Kapanen is a low IQ player.
Kadri is a playoff choker and costed his team 4 straight years. Seriously do people even pay attention outside the Leafs? People are still complaining about losing him? Do they just look at 2 years previous narratives and conclude Dubas doesn't know what he is doing?
Martin was benched by Babcock and since Babcock was being kept, Dubas did the right thing and traded him.
Dubas wanted to keep Brown but couldn't because the deal Lou gave to Zaitsev.
Kapanen is a low IQ player.
Kadri is a playoff choker and costed his team 4 straight years. Seriously do people even pay attention outside the Leafs? People are still complaining about losing him? Do they just look at 2 years previous narratives and conclude Dubas doesn't know what he is doing?
Martin was benched by Babcock and since Babcock was being kept, Dubas did the right thing and traded him.

Yeah agree to disagree on Kadri…there was very little wrong with his hit this year (he didn’t even connect with the head) with DeBrusk he mostly missed him and hit boards so you know I completely and totally disagree with you on this one…but sure act like Kadri is just dirty whatever you say
 

as Pure as Evil

Registered User
Sep 18, 2011
4,897
2,062
Hell, Alberta
the biggest problem i noticed in this years playoffs the refs don't make the same calls on both teams. one team can clutch grab and pull down a player with no call the other team grabs on to a shoulder its holding. no consistency what so ever in the calls. another team can constantly crosscheck another the other one starts they get penalties.

its been like that for almost every series.
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
23,736
11,002
The problem isn’t Dubas, the problem is the league operates under two sets of rules. Can you imagine in the post season opposing players were suddenly allowed to tackle and haul down Lebrun and it was considered good post season basketball?

It’s ludicrous that teams need to play one way to win in the regular season and another to win in the playoffs.
I’m not a GM but I think if I knew how the playoffs operate, I’d build my team in line with that.

In fact, just a blue collar, hard working skilled team should suit most situations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: geo25

NHL WAR

Registered User
Sep 29, 2018
959
1,176
Only getting one goal from their top 3 forwards (no fault to Tavares) is the reason the Leafs arent still playing.

The bottom 6 was far from ideal, but having Matt Martin instead of Joe Thornton is shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->