The private school education of NHL All-Stars

[violaswallet]

So I'm an economist who works a bit on policy and household finance. I think everyone identified clear selection bias as well as the confounding variable of scholarships. I also think we all agree hockey is very expensive. What we don't agree on is how useful this statistic is.

First, I think they need to control for location: in my home in the South, everyone want to public school. For my friends in NYC, everyone want private. This determines whether the 40% number is high or low. My prior is that Americans are more likely to attend private school and they are now making up a high portion of elite NHL players, which would confound the results and historical analysis they invoke.

I think a more interesting analysis would address the difference between pre schools:

• Conditional on say playing some decent level of hockey, do wealthier students do better than less wealthy? I.e. is 40% high relative to the number of players Junior A. The study tries to use a .02% chance of making NHL argument, which is just a bad argument. If the probability of making the NHL is equal ands say 40% of quality junior players, then we would expect this result.
• Are these scholarship students? Suppose they are: Then the private school number is actually a positive social externality for inequality reasons. (i.e. are working class families sending their kids to Andover because of hockey)
• Why do students go these schools? Currently the argument seems to be the answer is that they're wealthy. The other could be the scholarship argument, which is positive if the schools are better. My guess is that these private schools are often more flexible for elite hockey schedules, which is more ambigious.

Without answering these questions, we are left with our initial point: playing hockey is expensive and requires major parent involvement, which is easier for wealthier families on average.

Edited for grammar and spelling

 

[jetsforever]

Exciting stuff here

 

[Burke the Legend]

I don't know. I saved up all year, worked weekends for a month to have the money to send my son to ONE week long camp at just under $1000.

My son who wasn't a very good skater, came out of that camp a different player. He is so much better, and more confident. I can only imagine if I had had the resources to send him to more camps at an earlier age than he is now (13) how much better than he would be. I don't mean NHL or anything but maybe playing on a better travel team or being able to try out in college for a D3 school. For the record, I don't play full price for his small time travel team as I apply for a scholarship every year that cuts some of the cost.

Natural athletic ability is a must for sure, but actually being taught the mechanics and physics by former professionals can't be discounted. This year again, it will be one clinic, hopefully he takes another step in his development, I really wish I could do more, because he really loves ice hockey.

Just being able to have fun playing it, making friends and then later the gift is that as an adult he can play in quality beer leagues (more fun & friends anywhere he moves to) is the most important thing.

 

[BruinsBtn]

I'd say the article doesn't really mean anything without knowing how many of them received scholarships/financial aid to go to the schools.

Did you read the article???? Because it does say exactly that.

 

[McDNicks17]

Did you read the article???? Because it does say exactly that.

Did you? haha

"All the private schools offer scholarships and some sort of financial aid to those who qualify. CBC News was not able to determine if any of the NHL All-Stars who attended the schools received scholarships or financial aid."

If we're talking about how expensive these schools are(and therefore hockey in general), obviously finding out if they're actually paying for it should be the writer's first step.

 

[Regal]

What's wrong with being a niche sport?

It's one thing to be a niche sport due to lack of interest, it's another to be one due to lack of opportunity.

 

[SwaggySpungo]

The last time a thread like this came up I researched the cost of kids hockey in my home city and it was surprisingly affordable. Like, to the level of “as long as you are employed you can easily afford this.”

I think it’s more a matter of priority than anything else. The expense of hockey gets wildly overblown, especially in Canada.

I played over 20 years ago, but I don’t remember any of the kids on my teams coming from families who were well-off. My family sure as hell wasn’t.

 

[loudi94]

No issue with private schools but they should not receive any public dollars. The idea of elite hockey players coming out of that system should be acknowledged. It should neither be praised nor vilified.

 

[Sam Spade]

You really think public school is better than private school? Where the heck do you live where this is the case?

Heck, class size alone, forget anything else, makes this not true.

 

[violaswallet]

The last time a thread like this came up I researched the cost of kids hockey in my home city and it was surprisingly affordable. Like, to the level of “as long as you are employed you can easily afford this.”

I think it’s more a matter of priority than anything else. The expense of hockey gets wildly overblown, especially in Canada.

I played over 20 years ago, but I don’t remember any of the kids on my teams coming from families who were well-off. My family sure as hell wasn’t.

I agree that the monetary cost is not first order up until a certain level. (i.e. when there are $10k travel teams)

My prior belief that it is the parent's time cost that has the inequality component: if a parent needs to spend like 2 hours taking a kid to a rink, clearly that is costly. Perhaps wrongly, I always kind of imagine that upper middle class to upper class families are more likely to only have one parent working than poor families, this is a pretty big constraint/cost.

 

[Breakers]

I'd say the biggest leg up I have ever seen from a player is Kerfoot.
not taking anything away from his play, but the leg up he had growing up playing hockey is probably one of the biggest in the NHL with his dad building a super nice arena for him.

It was so controversial when he was building it.

 

[violaswallet]

You really think public school is better than private school? Where the heck do you live where this is the case?

Heck, class size alone, forget anything else, makes this not true.

Hey, it really depends. Usually outcomes are betters at private schools, but it is unclear if it is because of the value-added of the education or selection bias. (i.e. if only wealthy kids from super educated parents make it to private school, probably the causal factor is family background, not education)

The class size debate is actually pretty interesting. There is some research that shows lower class sizes are better for certain groups, but usually only at certain margins. It really becomes a local debate: are we comparing excellent suburb public schools with private schools or are we comparing desolate urban public schools?

We should maybe avoid generalizing too much because it is irrelevant to the topic at hand. What matters is the tradeoff these hockey players make.

 

[serp]

You really think public school is better than private school? Where the heck do you live where this is the case?

Heck, class size alone, forget anything else, makes this not true.

He probably meant on a conceptual basis. Which i agree with .

 

[Dirty Dan]

hockey is expensive but you don't need to buy the top end skates or top end equipment. those things only matter in percentages at the highest level

better to invest in hockey and sports for your child than let them sit on ipad or computer all day

 

[brentashton]

3 kids in hockey and one decided to chase the dream. Was in hockey academy programs where time in school was devoted to the game, skill development etc. That was all extra tuition over top of normal schooling costs. Then went on to play AAA bantam and midget programs for 5 years. Cost of playing on those teams, plus fundraising, plus our own costs to drive to games, hotels, meals and so forth were always like, on average $15,000kper season. I could not have done it without a good job and my wife working professionally as well, plus sacrifices. That being said, the other two after hockey also were involved in extracurricular activities that weren’t cheap neither. It costs money to live. Oh, and after all that our player decided not to persue further hockey after midget, went to U to concentrate strictly on school and now loves playing on the ODR and in a beer league(university) for enjoyment. Id still spend the 15k per year! It was worth it and enjoyable.

 

[violaswallet]

[qdp]

A lot of people brought up the cost argument here. One though I had for equipment is whether or not we can emulate high school baseball's metal bats? In the US, high schools use metal bats because they're substantialy cheaper and ban wooden bats...it might make sense to mandate cheaper materials at certain levels of hockey if they do give a performance advantage? Things like padding and to a lesser extent skates are then similarly like other equipment provided by teams in football by schools

 

[serp]

[qdp]

A lot of people brought up the cost argument here. One though I had for equipment is whether or not we can emulate high school baseball's metal bats? In the US, high schools use metal bats because they're substantialy cheaper and ban wooden bats...it might make sense to mandate cheaper materials at certain levels of hockey if they do give a performance advantage? Things like padding and to a lesser extent skates are then similarly like other equipment provided by teams in football by schools

I personally like that idea . Leave the proffesional equipment out of it until its gets to that level. Can't expect everybody to be able to spend an arm and a leg for something thats supposed to be a fun side activity after school.

 

[nbwingsfan]

The last time a thread like this came up I researched the cost of kids hockey in my home city and it was surprisingly affordable. Like, to the level of “as long as you are employed you can easily afford this.”

I think it’s more a matter of priority than anything else. The expense of hockey gets wildly overblown, especially in Canada.

I played over 20 years ago, but I don’t remember any of the kids on my teams coming from families who were well-off. My family sure as hell wasn’t.

That’s all dependant on the person. Anyone with any outstanding debt or living pay check to pay check likely won’t be able to have a child join hockey.

For example, let’s assume your kid is joining even base level hockey. You’re looking at a minimum of $560 registration fee in my hometown. Add in 2-3 away tournaments, so now you e got hotel and travel costs. Now add in even the worst of new equipment which will be $500 absolute best case scenario.

An extra ~$1100 just to get the base level of organized hockey is a lot. Obviously this goes up exponentially if you want your child to succeed.

substantially more than other sports

 

[BLNY]

Of note, these kids attending these schools are often getting in on athletic scholarships just like kids that get into D1 NCAA schools. Crosby spent a year at SSM. I doubt his family - by no means rich - paid a penny for it.

 

[violaswallet]

I personally like that idea . Leave the proffesional equipment out of it until its gets to that level. Can't expect everybody to be able to spend an arm and a leg for something thats supposed to be a fun side activity after school.

It could work I think? I guess skates are still a cost that need to born, but then again cleats and basketball shoes aren't necessarily cheap either.

The big cost to mitigate compared to other sports will be ice-time. Unfortunately, I can't think of a clear solution of how to make hockey as available as say basketball or football where any dirt field works alas. But then again, my objective is not to equalize completely, but as much as reasonable...

 

[mjlee]

Imagine thinking coerced state-sponsored education is good. Imagine caring about anything a state-sponsored broadcaster thinks about state-sponsored education.

(non-coerced) state-sponsored hockey education is standard in Sweden. You can apply to 'Hockey High School' which is free like all education. However, parents have to pay for room and board and equipment.

 

[nbwingsfan]

[qdp]

A lot of people brought up the cost argument here. One though I had for equipment is whether or not we can emulate high school baseball's metal bats? In the US, high schools use metal bats because they're substantialy cheaper and ban wooden bats...it might make sense to mandate cheaper materials at certain levels of hockey if they do give a performance advantage? Things like padding and to a lesser extent skates are then similarly like other equipment provided by teams in football by schools

It’s a great idea, but we know these big name companies that have made billions off of parents spending $300 on a 7 year olds stick won’t allow something like that to be approved

 

[violaswallet]

It’s a great idea, but we know these big name companies that have made billions off of parents spending $300 on a 7 year olds stick won’t allow something like that to be approved

I can't speak to the political economy part of this argument...but the fact that it happened in the US implies it should work elsewhere? I guess the problem would be convincing say Hockey Canada to implement it?

 

[nbwingsfan]

I can't speak to the political economy part of this argument...but the fact that it happened in the US implies it should work elsewhere? I guess the problem would be convincing say Hockey Canada to implement it?

Im not familiar with baseball in the slightest so I really can’t comment on how they did it or how long it’s been going on.

I just imagine it would be a logistical nightmare to do it at this point, and I could see Bauer and those guys losing their mind over the potential loss of 100s of millions of not billions or dollars from lost sales to the regular joe.

 

[El Travo]

I wonder what the percentage rate of NBA/NFL players going to private colleges are?