The Positivity Thread...

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nhlfan9191

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To be honest, I don't even think they need to bounce back, I just think there are quite a few players on this team that just can do a lot better going forward.

This team is young no matter what people say around here.

The bouncing back was indeed related to guys like Price and Max who clearly underperformed as we know they can do a lot better.

But for the rest of those guys is more a potential thing as they don't even have a solid track record in the NHL.

Well do you see guys like Alzner and Benn playing better? Where do you see guys like Drouin, Lehkonen, Domi, etc projecting as far as offense? Can Gallagher repeat his 30 goal season? We had a terrible goals for and against last season but where do you see us finishing in those categories next season?
 

CHfan1

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I don't even think we need those things to happen, to be honest.

I was crunching some numbers lately and Jeff Petry got 28 points in the second part of the season(41 games), that's 56 points per season pace...

I have a feeling this guy is just entering his prime at 30 years old...

Alzner was not signed to put up points so I don't know what's your point there...

And then again you keep mentioning all the older players but completely ignoring guys like Hudon, Lehkonen, Scherbak, Armia, Domi, Drouin who could explode...

He was really good on the PP where he had 16 of those 28 points. During the last half of the season (from Jan. 5 on) he was 6th overall among d-man for PP points, better than guys like Burns, Doughty, Subban, and Karlsson.
 

Belial

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Well do you see guys like Alzner and Benn playing better? Where do you see guys like Drouin, Lehkonen, Domi, etc projecting as far as offense? Can Gallagher repeat his 30 goal season? We had a terrible goals for and against last season but where do you see us finishing in those categories next season?

Alzner and Benn are not guys that will make you win or lose games on a regular base IMO. They're just there, they'll be decent when the team is playing well and they'll look like shit when the team struggles.

People probably expect way too much out of those guys and then get disappointed when those expectations aren't met.

Those guys are not difference makers, they won't tip the balance one side or the other.

You need your top players to lead the way.

Yes, I expect Domi, Drouin, and Lehkonen to have decent seasons.

Domi and Drouin 50+ points, Lehkonen around 40 points with 20+ goals.

Why wouldn't Gallagher repeat his season if he stays healthy? The guy is entering his prime...

Trade Max give Gally the C and watch that guy killing it out there.

The problem last season was clearly the goals against, that number should drop. I'm talking to you, Carey...

We scored only 16 fewer goals than the previous year where we won the division, and the whole team played like shit...
 

nhlfan9191

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Alzner and Benn are not guys that will make you win or lose games on a regular base IMO. They're just there, they'll be decent when the team is playing well and they'll look like **** when the team struggles.

People probably expect way too much out of those guys and then get disappointed when those expectations aren't met.

Those guys are not difference makers, they won't tip the balance one side or the other.

You need your top players to lead the way.

Yes, I expect Domi, Drouin, and Lehkonen to have decent seasons.

Domi and Drouin 50+ points, Lehkonen around 40 points with 20+ goals.

Why wouldn't Gallagher repeat his season if he stays healthy? The guy is entering his prime...

Trade Max give Gally the C and watch that guy killing it out there.

The problem last season was clearly the goals against, that number should drop. I'm talking to you, Carey...

We scored only 16 fewer goals than the previous year where we won the division, and the whole team played like ****...

I don’t see any room for huge improvement. I’m expecting Gally to come down goal’s wise. Alzner is an overpaid depth d man and Benn is paid accordingly but will likely be overused again. I can see a few forwards playing better but not enough to change that much. As far as Price, who knows what his mindset is. Seems he’s a guy who needs motivation or he crumbles.
 

OldCraig71

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Alzner and Benn are not guys that will make you win or lose games on a regular base IMO. They're just there, they'll be decent when the team is playing well and they'll look like **** when the team struggles.

People probably expect way too much out of those guys and then get disappointed when those expectations aren't met.

Those guys are not difference makers, they won't tip the balance one side or the other.

You need your top players to lead the way.

Yes, I expect Domi, Drouin, and Lehkonen to have decent seasons.

Domi and Drouin 50+ points, Lehkonen around 40 points with 20+ goals.

Why wouldn't Gallagher repeat his season if he stays healthy? The guy is entering his prime...

Trade Max give Gally the C and watch that guy killing it out there.

The problem last season was clearly the goals against, that number should drop. I'm talking to you, Carey...

We scored only 16 fewer goals than the previous year where we won the division, and the whole team played like ****...

respectfully disagree, offence starts at defence and we really really lacked on the back end in the puck moving department. We lack a 1-2 center duo and we can't move the puck from D with the exception being the inconsistent Petry.
 

Belial

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I don’t see any room for huge improvement. I’m expecting Gally to come down goal’s wise. Alzner is an overpaid depth d man and Benn is paid accordingly but will likely be overused again. I can see a few forwards playing better but not enough to change that much. As far as Price, who knows what his mindset is. Seems he’s a guy who needs motivation or he crumbles.
Again, as I already pointed out we only scored 16 fewer goals than the previous year where we won the division.

The huge difference was in the goals allowed.

Carey had a .900 SV% this year, his average for the last 4 years prior to this season is .929 SV%.

If he would've posted that SV% this season we would've allowed 43 fewer goals...

There doesn't need to be some major turnaround for this team to be competitive.

Just Price being the best goalie in the world again would catapult this team in the PO mix.
 

CHfan1

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The huge difference was in the goals allowed.

One of the huge differences I see is teams in the Atlantic division have gotten a lot better. TB, Toronto, Boston, Florida, and even Buffalo are better than they were 2 seasons ago.
 
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Belial

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respectfully disagree, offence starts at defence and we really really lacked on the back end in the puck moving department. We lack a 1-2 center duo and we can't move the puck from D with the exception being the inconsistent Petry.
Who can't move the puck on that D? This whole puck moving thing is overblown IMO.

We don't have a lot of rushing D's apart Petry that I agree but moving the puck?

All those guys are able to make decent tape to tape passes on a regular basis...

Maybe not Markov type passes that would split the opposition in one pass but the puck is able to get out of the zone on a consistent rate.
 

Belial

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One of the huge differences I see is teams in the Atlantic division have gotten a lot better. TB, Toronto, Boston, Florida, and even Buffalo are better than they were 2 seasons ago.

While that's true I don't see how it has anything to do with my point...
 

nhlfan9191

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Again, as I already pointed out we only scored 16 fewer goals than the previous year where we won the division.

The huge difference was in the goals allowed.

Carey had a .900 SV% this year, his average for the last 4 years prior to this season is .929 SV%.

If he would've posted that SV% this season we would've allowed 43 fewer goals...

There doesn't need to be some major turnaround for this team to be competitive.

Just Price being the best goalie in the world again would catapult this team in the PO mix.

That many goals is substantial. And it doesn’t fall all on Prixe. The defence that was predictably bad had to improve. Not to mention Price started under 50 games so it wasn’t just him contributing.
 

Belial

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That many goals is substantial. And it doesn’t fall all on Prixe. The defence that was predictably bad had to improve. Not to mention Price started under 50 games so it wasn’t just him contributing.

16 goals are substantial? That's the 16 goals Pacioretty didn't score...
 

nhlfan9191

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16 goals are substantial? That's the 16 goals Pacioretty didn't score...

Yes it is. Especially with the philosophy of trying to win low scoring games which didn’t work. When you’re trying to win by a goal in a chess match, which assumingly signing an elite goalie and propping up a defense would suggest, then I would say yes thats substantial. Look at the games Julien coached in 16/17 and tell me what kind of hockey he was trying to play. He just failed miserably this past season.
 
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JohnLennon

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Or us trading Pacioretty? God that better not be for a roster player.

If you really think that we're going to score more than 210 goals next season, it's a really interesting exercise to write out who scores those goals. Someone's gotta score them, right? Do we start predicting more goals than like...6 of our players have ever scored? I actually haven't checked. I think it's basically not possible to get there without predicting big years for players who have never had big years if we trade Pacioretty for futures, though.

I tried to make a list. I really did. And it's really hard. I did low-end and high-end projections for every player on the team, even accounting for injuries and past performance and all that stuff. I found that the low-end was much too low, and the high-end was too high. Which makes sense, considering it likely won't ever happen that every single player on a team unanimously hits their low-end projection or high-end projection. Which brings us to the fact that the variance in goals scored likely isn't as high in practice as it is in theory.

We can all speculate that it's possible that all our young players have break out years, Pacioretty and Price bounce back, and everything works out... but the odds of that are extremely low. Possible, just not probable. As are the odds of this team all having a down year. While I do think that last year was definitely more of a down year for most of the group, the real-life variance in goals likely doesn't swing back to make a big enough difference - especially if we lose Pacioretty.

Though I will say that I expect Pacioretty to regress back to his normal production, and that the combined acquisitions of Domi, Armia, and Peca likely outscore Galchenyuk alone - so I do expect this team to somewhat improve in goals scored.

I don't think the swing can be that huge in terms of our offence. This team hasn't scored more than 223 goals since it wasn't this particular team. The mean to which we would revert just isn't that high.

Our goals against though? There's a lot of room for improvement.

As I mentioned above, I completely agree that the swing in practice will not be as significant as it would be if we were to make theoretical projections for the entire roster.

Goals against does have more room for improvement, given the dreadful seasons of guys like Alzner, Schlemko and Price, the injury to Weber in game 1, and it being a rookie season for both Mete and Juulsen. I certainly expect a more significant swing in terms of goals against than in goals scored, but I do indeed expect both to improve this season. This team will be better at both ends in my opinion, but nevertheless is not a playoff caliber team and finish definitely out of the playoffs.
 

MaxDummy

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the combined acquisitions of Domi, Armia, and Peca likely outscore Galchenyuk
It doesnt work like that..

I remember when Radulov signed in Dallas... some posters were saying how it wasnt a big deal since Hudon, Lehkonen and Byron would "replace" Radulovs production.. that worked Well, eh
 
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JohnLennon

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It doesnt work like that..

I remember when Radulov signed in Dallas... some posters were saying how it wasnt a big deal since Hudon, Lehkonen and Byron would "replace" Radulovs production.. that worked Well, eh

Difference between the two is that we replaced Galchenyuk with Domi, and got Peca and Armia as new additions with no additional goals lost. You're referencing some posters who thought already-current members of the team would replace a member that left. It isn't crazy for those people to think Hudon, Lehkonen and Byron would all have a net gain of 20 goals year-on-year, but it certainly isn't a sure thing. Far from it. Basically, those posters were saying those three players would INCREASE their production in order to replace Radulov's LOST production, and that's a tall task. Not at all what I suggested.

In the case I mentioned above, my claim that Domi (9 goals last year), Armia (12 goals last year), and Peca (2 goals in 10 games last year, but likely gets closer to 10 overall) COMBINED would feasibly replace Galchenyuk's (19 goals last year) lost production is more reasonable, and quite frankly, likely. Even if they don't improve at all in terms of goal-scoring, their combined production from last year replaces that of Galchenyuk.
 

groovejuice

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Again, as I already pointed out we only scored 16 fewer goals than the previous year where we won the division.

The huge difference was in the goals allowed.

Carey had a .900 SV% this year, his average for the last 4 years prior to this season is .929 SV%.

If he would've posted that SV% this season we would've allowed 43 fewer goals...

There doesn't need to be some major turnaround for this team to be competitive.

Just Price being the best goalie in the world again would catapult this team in the PO mix.

That calculation works in a vacuum where the quality of the D corps is irrelevant to GA and Save%.

Look at the defense and tell me again how all Price needs to do is play up to his own standards.

It's like asking @jaffy27 to fly his 737 with an engine out and failed landing gear and expecting an uneventful landing.
 
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Belial

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Yes it is. Especially with the philosophy of trying to win low scoring games which didn’t work. When you’re trying to win by a goal in a chess match, which assumingly signing an elite goalie and propping up a defense would suggest, then I would say yes thats substantial. Look at the games Julien coached in 16/17 and tell me what kind of hockey he was trying to play. He just failed miserably this past season.

Again, I don't think this team performed as it was supposed to perform. On paper they were better than what we saw on the ice in my opinion.
That calculation works in a vacuum where the quality of the D corps is irrelevant to GA and Save%.

Look at the defense and tell me again how all Price needs to do is play up to his own standards.

It's like asking @jaffy27 to fly his 737 with an engine out and failed landing gear and expecting an uneventful landing.

Then let me ask you what's the point in having a stellar goalie if he can't deliver if he's not having a wall of a defense in front of him?

Price is our star, he should make the difference and last year he failed.

Niemi was able to put up decent numbers while playing behind the same D brigade so spare me with that excuse.
 

muzion

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I said I think they'll do better as a whole team not only solely riding Price's back.

Again, I'm not saying we'll win the cup next season or something, I just think we had a ton of underachieving players last year.

If some of those players can bounce back and with the natural progression of some of our younger players I can see us being much better next season.



Well, he'll be our #1 D next season also for quite some games, and even when Weber is back he could still play on the first PP alongside Shea...

And if you look at his advanced stats there's nothing really that suggest he was a tire fire defensively apart the GA.

I don't think he needs to change the way he was playing, with some better goaltending that GA number should go down.

The team was generating more scoring chances than allowing when he was on the ice but they let in more goals than scored.
I do think they should consider putting him on the 1st wave, as the Habs are short of a power play threat with the departure of Galchenyuk, and Domi performed way below par on the PP in Arizona.

I'll grant that was better with Mete (no Alzner) as he didn't have to carry the load in terms of puck-moving.

We've never seen him be aggressive 5-on-5 when Weber has played. Maybe he will change his approach, but the last time he had more than 28 pts he was in the USHL. Thirty year old athletes tend to be set in their ways. I attributed it to Julien saying "F it" and just letting him go on offense. A team lacking in skill that's coached by Claude Julien and backstopped by an elite goalie is not going to open up the game, as long as it's in playoff contention. I don't see why he would suddenly become a better point producer, especially in that environment.
 

Miller Time

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Difference between the two is that we replaced Galchenyuk with Domi, and got Peca and Armia as new additions with no additional goals lost. You're referencing some posters who thought already-current members of the team would replace a member that left. It isn't crazy for those people to think Hudon, Lehkonen and Byron would all have a net gain of 20 goals year-on-year, but it certainly isn't a sure thing. Far from it. Basically, those posters were saying those three players would INCREASE their production in order to replace Radulov's LOST production, and that's a tall task. Not at all what I suggested.

In the case I mentioned above, my claim that Domi (9 goals last year), Armia (12 goals last year), and Peca (2 goals in 10 games last year, but likely gets closer to 10 overall) COMBINED would feasibly replace Galchenyuk's (19 goals last year) lost production is more reasonable, and quite frankly, likely. Even if they don't improve at all in terms of goal-scoring, their combined production from last year replaces that of Galchenyuk.

That math doesn't work...

Those three roster players will "replace" Galch AND two other roster players.

Assuming they are all in the top 9, then you'd have to add the bumped players goals to galch's in comparing the production difference... And even that is a specious comparison.

Net GF is all that really matters. As bad as we were last year, Galch was a key offense contributor despite not getting great min or deployment.

Hard to look at our current fwd/D group & feel bullish on it improving on last year's goal output, imo.
 

Belial

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I do think they should consider putting him on the 1st wave, as the Habs are short of a power play threat with the departure of Galchenyuk, and Domi performed way below par on the PP in Arizona.

I'll grant that was better with Mete (no Alzner) as he didn't have to carry the load in terms of puck-moving.

We've never seen him be aggressive 5-on-5 when Weber has played. Maybe he will change his approach, but the last time he had more than 28 pts he was in the USHL. Thirty year old athletes tend to be set in their ways. I attributed it to Julien saying "F it" and just letting him go on offense. A team lacking in skill that's coached by Claude Julien and backstopped by an elite goalie is not going to open up the game, as long as it's in playoff contention. I don't see why he would suddenly become a better point producer, especially in that environment.
We'll see next season but I was often questioning myself why is he not more aggressive during games, the guy clearly has the tools to produce.

Skates like the wind, big body, good shot, can make decent passes...

Maybe he finally put it all together?

Isn't that the whole point of having an elite goalie? Being able to take more risks? Pinch more often?
 

groovejuice

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Then let me ask you what's the point in having a stellar goalie if he can't deliver if he's not having a wall of a defense in front of him?

Price is our star, he should make the difference and last year he failed.

Niemi was able to put up decent numbers while playing behind the same D brigade so spare me with that excuse.

The D was garbage all season and yes, Price didn't have a good season at all. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on Niemi's play as he faced an awful lot of crappy teams.

Pointing out that there's a correlation between the play of the defence and goals against isn't an excuse, it's a fact. When was the last time you saw a Montreal defence as bad as the one on the ice last season?

You're like Bergevin, picking out single players to blame the season on, when in reality it's the entire gawd-awful team that Bergevin built playing at the odious level any reasonable person would expect.
 

Belial

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That math doesn't work...

Those three roster players will "replace" Galch AND two other roster players.

Assuming they are all in the top 9, then you'd have to add the bumped players goals to galch's in comparing the production difference... And even that is a specious comparison.

Net GF is all that really matters. As bad as we were last year, Galch was a key offense contributor despite not getting great min or deployment.

Hard to look at our current fwd/D group & feel bullish on it improving on last year's goal output, imo.
While I agree with your logic those players will replace guys like Froese, Mitchell and Logan Shaw who combined for 5 goals last season.
 

groovejuice

Without deviation progress is not possible
Jun 27, 2011
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That math doesn't work...

Those three roster players will "replace" Galch AND two other roster players.

Assuming they are all in the top 9, then you'd have to add the bumped players goals to galch's in comparing the production difference... And even that is a specious comparison.

Net GF is all that really matters. As bad as we were last year, Galch was a key offense contributor despite not getting great min or deployment.

Hard to look at our current fwd/D group & feel bullish on it improving on last year's goal output, imo.

Exactly. Who's going to replace the scoring of Galchenyuk and likely Pacioretty? It's like management are marionettes beholden to some gambling syndicate betting everything on the Habs to finish 31st.
 
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