OT: The Pittsburgher Thread - Mike Tomlin = Groundhog Day

[T1K]

Maybe he can win a SB, but again all we have are the current facts that he is 0-2 in the playoffs.

Maybe he will be in that tier with those two at some point, possibly this year.

However, you can’t put a guy who hasn’t even won a playoff game in the same tier as elite guys who have won SBs.

I’m not even saying he has to win a SB this season, but he most definitely has to show he can win in the playoffs.

I think we’ll need to land on agree to disagree on this for now.

Jackson entered the league at 21 and played mid way through the season, then obviously he followed that up by winning MVP at 22. Mahomes entered the league at 22 and sat out his entire rookie year (except for the last game). Wilson entered the league at 24 and started all games. To criticize Jackson’s playoff performances at 21/22 when the other two guys weren’t even starting QBs at the same age doesn’t make sense to me. Comparing players based off of team accomplishments (SB) and overlooking individual accomplishments (MVP) doesn’t make sense to me either.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I think we’ll need to land on agree to disagree on this for now.

Jackson entered the league at 21 and played mid way through the season, then obviously he followed that up by winning MVP at 22. Mahomes entered the league at 22 and sat out his entire rookie year (except for the last game). Wilson entered the league at 24 and started all games. To criticize Jackson’s playoff performances at 21/22 when the other two guys weren’t even starting QBs at the same age doesn’t make sense to me. Comparing players based off of team accomplishments (SB) and overlooking individual accomplishments (MVP) doesn’t make sense to me either.

So basically he’s old enough to laud him for being MVP and his regular season success, but not old enough to expect him to win a playoff game?

Either you win or you don’t in the playoffs, age is just an excuse.

Roth had a playoff win in his pocket at 22 and won the SB at 23.

That’s how the elite QBs are judged.

You win in the playoffs or you don’t.

I suspect he will finally win a playoff game this year, then and only then, can you compare him to the games elite QBs.

 

[T1K]

So basically he’s old enough to laud him for being MVP and his regular season success, but not old enough to expect him to win a playoff game?

Either you win or you don’t in the playoffs, age is just an excuse.

Roth had a playoff win in his pocket at 22 and won the SB at 23.

That’s how the elite QBs are judged.

You win in the playoffs or you don’t.

I suspect he will finally win a playoff game this year, then and only then, can you compare him to the games elite QBs.

He’s more accomplished more at his age in the NFL relative to what the other two guys did, so why would we not expect him to do better as he gains more experience? He lost two games in the playoffs at 21/22, it is not a “thing” as you’re implying. If he loses this year then maybe the playoff choker reputation will have some legs, but as it stands for last year, the Titans got hot at the right time and pulled off the upset. Big Ben wasn’t an elite QB when he won the SB, he was a game manager.

I expect him to win playoff games. I’m just saying in this particularly rare case that the player can be considered elite due to his team and individual regular season successes at such a young age.

I strongly disagree about your point of “either you win or you don’t in the playoffs, age is just an excuse”, it just doesn’t make any sense when evaluating QBs because age absolutely does matter.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I wasn’t even talking about winning or SBs. Eye test only. When I watch those Wilson and Mahomes I just think there’s such a gap between them and everyone else.

Lamar is good but there’s just something off with his game to me. Amazing, amazing athlete.. but I still feel like he’s a weapon that has been perfectly maximized by the Ravens machine.

I don’t feel you could get the same results from Jackson if you dropped him on any team, I do think Wilson and Mahomes are transcendent and would give you MVP caliber play anywhere. (And I know Mahomes gets to play with a silly collection of skill players and Andy Reid). And tbh - in a vacuum, I prefer Kyler Murray to Lamar as well.

Obviously Jackson is the perfect fit for what the Ravens are doing right now, and I do think that he has no ceiling to how good he can be. The talent is ridiculous. Just doesn’t have that polish others have to me right now.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

He’s more accomplished more at his age in the NFL relative to what the other two guys did, so why would we not expect him to do better as he gains more experience? He lost two games in the playoffs at 21/22, it is not a “thing” as you’re implying. If he loses this year then maybe the playoff choker reputation will have some legs, but as it stands for last year, the Titans got hot at the right time and pulled off the upset. Big Ben wasn’t an elite QB when he won the SB, he was a game manager.

I expect him to win playoff games. I’m just saying in this particularly rare case that the player can be considered elite due to his team and individual regular season successes at such a young age.

I strongly disagree about your point of “either you win or you don’t in the playoffs, age is just an excuse”, it just doesn’t make any sense when evaluating QBs because age absolutely does matter.

You acting as if not crowning him elite is some sort of slight. Hes had a great year booked ended but terrible playoff games.

Hes clearly talented. But there a lot of running QBs that are talented that peak early and are just ok to bad once the physical toll sets in.

RGIII is an extreme example, Newton had one great year that he never replicated. Vick had popped a couple times and always flamed out in the playoffs.

Its not impossible that he can become Wilson/Mahomes level. But they have had great years, won Super bowls AND most importantly have repeatedly had that success.

its the same reason giroux or kopitar or etc etc etc were never better than Crosby. Maybe they had more points for a year or they won for a year but year in and year out there is one guy always there

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

He’s more accomplished more at his age in the NFL relative to what the other two guys did, so why would we not expect him to do better as he gains more experience? He lost two games in the playoffs at 21/22, it is not a “thing” as you’re implying. If he loses this year then maybe the playoff choker reputation will have some legs, but as it stands for last year, the Titans got hot at the right time and pulled off the upset. Big Ben wasn’t an elite QB when he won the SB, he was a game manager.

I expect him to win playoff games. I’m just saying in this particularly rare case that the player can be considered elite due to his team and individual regular season successes at such a young age.

I strongly disagree about your point of “either you win or you don’t in the playoffs, age is just an excuse”, it just doesn’t make any sense when evaluating QBs because age absolutely does matter.

Roth didn't 'game mange' those wins agt Indy and Denver... people forget he threw all over those teams and without him, they never make it to the SB.

Age is once again an excuse.

Just because you want to put a guy in a category, doesn't mean he belongs there yet.

Jackson has to earn that rep like Mahomes and Wilson.

Having the potential to win playoff games and actually doing it are entirely different things.

Once he does, then yes, we can say he is there with the guys who you know, have actually done it.

 

[T1K]

You acting as if not crowning him elite is some sort of slight. Hes had a great year booked ended but terrible playoff games.

Hes clearly talented. But there a lot of running QBs that are talented that peak early and are just ok to bad once the physical toll sets in.

RGIII is an extreme example, Newton had one great year that he never replicated. Vick had popped a couple times and always flamed out in the playoffs.

Its not impossible that he can become Wilson/Mahomes level. But they have had great years, won Super bowls AND most importantly have repeatedly had that success.

its the same reason giroux or kopitar or etc etc etc were never better than Crosby. Maybe they had more points for a year or they won for a year but year in and year out there is one guy always there

Is Joe Flacco elite?

 

[ziggyjoe212]

Man the new Pitt alternate unis are sweet. I wish the Steelers used a steel looking helmet like that.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Is Joe Flacco elite?

no, thats a stupid question.

a loaded atupid question to boot. An average and sometimes even a bad quarter back can win a super bowl. But you cannot be elite after one regular season with no playoff success.

Because actual elite QBs have both multiple great seasons and playoff success. Thats what makes them elite.

 

[T1K]

no, thats a stupid question.

a loaded atupid question to boot. An average and sometimes even a bad quarter back can win a super bowl. But you cannot be elite after one regular season with no playoff success.

Because actual elite QBs have both multiple great seasons and playoff success. Thats what makes them elite.

I was referring to the meme lol

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I was referring to the meme lol

my bad totally unaware of that. I dont know much about memes. Im a grumpy old man in a not so old body

 

[JTG]

Wilson is probably the best QB in the league. His intelligence is really what differentiates him. Mahomes arm is bionic. The throws he can make are unbelievable.

To me, QBs like Jackson get figured out. He's very good, and will be in the league for a long time, but I don't get as enamored watching him as I do with Wilson or Mahomes - particularly Mahomes with some of these video game throws he makes.

 

[Rossi Rat]

If the Ravens aren’t #1 in power rankings after this week, idk who is. Honestly they look not just like the best team in the NFL, but the best team in the NFL by far. No real glaring weaknesses, they’ll for sure beat the Chiefs next week. It really sucks how good they are.

I just wonder if maybe Rodgers/Wilson have another ring in them, but their defenses aren’t as good.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

If the Ravens aren’t #1 in power rankings after this week, idk who is. Honestly they look not just like the best team in the NFL, but the best team in the NFL by far. No real glaring weaknesses, they’ll for sure beat the Chiefs next week. It really sucks how good they are.

I just wonder if maybe Rodgers/Wilson have another ring in them, but their defenses aren’t as good.

They beat 2 none play off teams. Lots a CB for the year don’t need rankings till week 4

 

[SouthGeorge]

Claypool had an 84 yard TD and DJ had 94 yards and a TD, along with a great punt return for a TD he got screwed on.

Can’t say I’m wishing for Metcalf TBTH.

The argument will never be Metcalf vs. Claypool. We don't know who we would have drafted this year at X so Metcalf/unknown vs DJ/Claypool isn't a fair argument. Our combo could be better.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Metcalf is a good WR but what you are seeing from him is likely what youll see throughout his career. While DJ is just scratching the surface. He will continue to get better. Whether he will be better than Metcalf, IDK but I think At least he is the type that stays on top longer. More of a Brown- Holmes(even Emmanuel Sanders) type rather than Mike Wallace.

And yeah we could have drafted differently but Ben having 4 legit WRs for his last year or so is more important right now.

 

[OnMyOwn]

He looks so much like AB it’s unreal. The big question is whether he’ll ever snag those clutch grabs along the sideline. You could always count on AB to make a huge catch when you needed one. His route running, playmaking after the catch and punt returning are all already similar.

His target share is also similar. Ben just loves throwing to that position and especially if he trusts the guy playing it.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Yup, 23 targets already to DJ. He will have plenty of opportunities to become a top WR.

It also leaves Juju more open(along with the others) . As the season goes on, our offense should get better and better. Thats where we see those 80 yard TDs to Claypool for example. Or Juju and JW open for a first down. With defenses having to pay more attention to DJ.

Its only been 2 weeks, I feel like the offense can become a top 5 unit in the league. Thats if our Oline can do its job. Either way, Ben has 6 legit targets(not including the RBs) to throw to. There is no excuse for us not to be at least top 10.

Getting DeCastro back will make a huge difference btw.

 

[T1K]

DJ will be a star, but eventually they will be less accepting of his ball security issues. He needs to improve on the fumbling.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The argument will never be Metcalf vs. Claypool. We don't know who we would have drafted this year at X so Metcalf/unknown vs DJ/Claypool isn't a fair argument. Our combo could be better.

Unknown what bro?

To get Metcalf they would have had to have given up an asset, so you also need to factor that in and take it away.

The guys they did get combined for like 170 yards, two TDs and a called back punt return for a TD.

If you think they would have done better with Metcalf and some other mystery player minus another asset, that’s um, some odd mental twisting.

 

[Arkadiusz]

Well if they want to move on from him I would gladly take him once Ben is retired with in the next 2 seasons I was thinking it be Rodgers but maybe the front office wants to go younger

I was thinking the Jets might just be bad enough this year to get 1st OA pick. I would take a flier on Darnold if Jets trade him cheap to make way for Trevor? I feel like he would flourish in a different system...

 

[T1K]

I was thinking the Jets might just be bad enough this year to get 1st OA pick. I would take a flier on Darnold if Jets trade him cheap to make way for Trevor? I feel like he would flourish in a different system...

Agreed. I’d also be interested in Danny Dimes if the Giants stink

 

[Iggy Smalls]

Even with Lawrence I'm not sure how much better NYJ would be. They lack depth at nearly every position and will be cutting Bell come March, too. What a mess.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

They won't be better with Lawrence. Doesn't mean they wouldn't draft him if given the chance.

Whoever gets 1st overall will take Lawrence. Franchise QBs cure a lot of ills.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

I wouldn't mind signing Jameis Winston if he decides to leave NOLA after this season. Same with Darnold. I think he could be a good starter with proper coaching. Unfortuately, sFinchter isn't the right coach for that. But he'd still be a better project than Rudolph, IMO.