The Official Tank Thread III

[njx9]

What is he gonna say?

Who cares what he says? What does that have to do with literally anything? This is his team. He's responsible for every player on it. And there are only a couple of them that anyone else would want, and none of those have any *actual* value (per your statement that they won't go for the kinds of players we actually need)? Come on. It's indefensible.

He's saying that maybe nobody wants their assets for a young, top pairing D or a young, top line C... which is of course a no-brainer, but he's pretty much saying that it is up to other teams if they want his players to make a deal. He's not going to make change for the sake of change. He's not going to sweep out players for the sake of sweeping them out.

That's massive, unsubstantiated projection of a very simple sentence. I'll take his actual words over some guy's abstraction of them.

I'll add that no one is suggesting that trading Helm or Abbie or a Tatar/Nyquist deal or whatever is anything reasonably close to 'change for the sake of change.' Some people see that as 'change for the sake of moving forward.'

I mean, honestly, everyone lost their damn minds on not getting a 1st back for Vanek because "that was his value"... but nobody wanted to trade for him at that value.

Are you aware of how counter-productive garbage like 'lost their damn minds' is? Let alone when it's thrown in as a complete non-sequitur to the line you quoted? Good luck with that.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Take a look at what Babcock and Shanahan said when they first signed on with Toronto:

Can't compare that to Detroit. Coming into a team after they've made the playoffs once in the last decade and haven't won a cup in a lifetime means you can talk about pain and talk about a longterm process and dangle the idea of a cup as a carrot and fans will eat it up.
Different expectations in Detroit.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Red Wings GM has no interest in painful rebuild

"Maybe nobody likes our players or contracts"

Hah

The full quote puts it in a different light (while admittedly his comment about the contracts he's handed out is unintentionally hilarious).

“Am I going to work the phones?†Holland said. “Yeah, we’ve had a lousy year. I’m not going to step up and make this bold announcement, ‘I’m going to make massive, sweeping changes.’ I don’t know if I’m going to make massive, sweeping changes. Maybe nobody likes our players or their contracts.â€

He's basically saying he's not gonna make any bold pronouncements one way or another. The problem is that given Holland's track record the last several years, we all have a pretty good idea of what he's gonna do.

If he's not into a teardown and really wants the Wings in the playoffs next season then I think he definitely needs to fire Blashill. Of course it's not all the coaches fault but just about everyone regressed under him. If you're not gonna change the roster significantly you've at least gotta try to find someone who can better utilize what you have.

And absolutely fire the power play coach, and ask for your money back. I could've done as well being the PP coach by just yelling "SCORE MOAR GOALS!!!" at them every practice.

 

[jolly roger]

The full quote puts it in a different light (while admittedly his comment about the contracts he's handed out is unintentionally hilarious).


He's basically saying he's not gonna make any bold pronouncements one way or another. The problem is that given Holland's track record the last several years, we all have a pretty good idea of what he's gonna do.

If he's not into a teardown and really wants the Wings in the playoffs next season then I think he definitely needs to fire Blashill. Of course it's not all the coaches fault but just about everyone regressed under him. If you're not gonna change the roster significantly you've at least gotta try to find someone who can better utilize what you have.

And absolutely fire the power play coach, and ask for your money back. I could've done as well being the PP coach by just yelling "SCORE MOAR GOALS!!!" at them every practice.

Blashill MUST go.

We had a Powerplay coach?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Blashill MUST go.

We had a Powerplay coach?

The most revealing thing this offseason will be the coaching decision. If Holland keeps this coaching staff he's tanking next year. Change only the assistants and he is giving Blashill one more chance but is likely fine with the team doing bad again. Change the whole crew and he may be serious about trying to make the playoffs.

 

[Red Stanley]

You asked what the front office is supposed to say when the team is bad and needs to rebuild.

I provided quotes from a recently installed front office on a team that was bad and needed to rebuild.

You promptly dismissed it and said there was nothing in common.



Now what Detroit WILL do is entirely different, but what they SHOULD do is to say something along these lines:

'We as an organization are extremely proud of the many fantastic accomplishments we have been fortunate enough to witness during this historic run of success. We also would like to thank all the many talented and wonderful individuals that helped make that run possible. But now that the streak has ended, and we take an honest look at the state of the franchise, we realize that a shift in philosophy is in order. We have the greatest fans in hockey, and those fans deserve our best efforts to return to championship contention. Now we realize that there are no guarantees, and that rebuilding a roster can be a long and difficult process. But we fully intend to utilize the great hockey minds we have in this organization, and will consider the best available resources from within and outside the organization, in order to build for a future return to success, where The Detroit Red Wings are once again a flagship for playoff success in the National Hockey League.'

Note that none of the above imply or require scorched earth, intentionally losing games, or any of the other typical objections to rebuilding. It might work, it might fail, it might be somewhere in between, but it's high time to end the delusion that hoping to be an 8th seed is respectable to have as a recurring goal.

That's because Detroit's situation doesn't have all that much in common with Toronto's. I also dismissed the notion that PR talk constitutes reality. If all you say about Holland comes to pass, I'll go grab my pitchfork and join you in righteous rebellion. Until then I'm not going to freak out over words when the actions (so far post-streak) directly contradict them.

 

[Red Stanley]

Having three rookies do something on the same team nobody else ever has in history makes you relevant.

Why even bother with this charade they call playoff hockey? Just hand these three rookies the Cup now, or at the very least give them a bye to the conference finals. HFBoards has deemed them sufficiently relevant.

 

[Heaton]

Until then I'm not going to freak out over words when the actions (so far post-streak) directly contradict them.

How? The Lightning aren't rebuilding and they're still competing for a playoff spot yet they still sold at the deadline. Nothing Holland has done has shown me that he has any interest in taking the steps necessary to fix the team.

Why even bother with this charade they call playoff hockey? Just hand these three rookies the Cup now, or at the very least give them a bye to the conference finals. HFBoards has deemed them sufficiently relevant.

Relax, if you want to minimize what Toronto has done this year, go for it. But some of us are impressed by what they've been able to accomplish in a couple seasons of competent management. They realized their plan wasn't working and adjusted, I'm not sure Holland will ever admit to his plan not working even if we go 20 years without making the conference finals.

 

[Red Stanley]

How? The Lightning aren't rebuilding and they're still competing for a playoff spot yet they still sold at the deadline. Nothing Holland has done has shown me that he has any interest in taking the steps necessary to fix the team.



Relax, if you want to minimize what Toronto has done this year, go for it. But some of us are impressed by what they've been able to accomplish in a couple seasons of competent management. They realized their plan wasn't working and adjusted, I'm not sure Holland will ever admit to his plan not working even if we go 20 years without making the conference finals.

What are the steps necessary to fix the team? Could you please list them in order so that we may see which ones Holland has skipped since the trade deadline?

What have TML accomplished so far this year that makes them relevant and which I'm, apparently, trying to minimize?

 

[Vladdy84]

Blashill MUST go.

We had a Powerplay coach?

Blashill isn't the problem. The team would still suck if Babcock was the coach.

 

[obey86]

Blashill isn't the problem. The team would still suck if Babcock was the coach.

doesnt mean blashill doesnt suck. people around here always seem to think it's one thing or the other. the roster can suck AND the coach can suck. we need to rebuild the roster AND we also need a new coach because blashill IS a problem...regardless of how good or bad the roster is.

 

[jkutswings]

That's because Detroit's situation doesn't have all that much in common with Toronto's.

Indeed. One team saw the reality, addressed it, and has made progress. The other is digging in their heels to fight an impossible battle against Father Time.

I also dismissed the notion that PR talk constitutes reality. If all you say about Holland comes to pass, I'll go grab my pitchfork and join you in righteous rebellion. Until then I'm not going to freak out over words when the actions (so far post-streak) directly contradict them.

What actions? Getting a few 3rd rounders? Teams both in and out of the playoffs make those type of moves often. The actions that will matter will be who is protected, what coaches stay, what they do on draft day, and what (if anything) happens in the trade market and free agency.

And I no longer have any faith in Ken Holland to handle those things with a realistic eye on both the state of the franchise and how to improve it.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Blashill isn't the problem. The team would still suck if Babcock was the coach.

It would suck a lot less though, let's be real. Leafs were more entertaining to watch last year than the Wings, without Matthews/Marner/Nylander. I have a feeling Mantha/AA/Larkin would be doing a lot better under Babcock at least. I also doubt Sheahan would have this combination of goals and icetime.

 

[Heaton]

What are the steps necessary to fix the team? Could you please list them in order so that we may see which ones Holland has skipped since the trade deadline?

1. Stop pretending like you can make the playoffs and rebuild at the same time.
2. Stop saying that 'we haven't had high picks so we could not have rebuilded' while having the message that we're still trying to make the playoffs which prevents the team from having the high picks necessary to properly rebuild.
3. Be more proactive in incorporating younger players into the lineup instead of waiting for injuries to be one of the main avenues to open up a roster spot.
4. If Holland approached the rebuild as a journey to get back to the championship ways, he would have full support. Instead, he used the streak as a crutch to allow the franchise to sink into mediocrity.
5. Embrace the situation we're in instead of denying it. Holland acts like the fans are idiots when it comes to the length of a rebuild. I've already said this a dozen times, but rebuilds take 10 years because the management who start the rebuild does a terrible job. What rebuild has taken 10 years where management was in charge the entire time?. The Oilers had to change management. The Blackhawks had to change management. The Leafs had to change management.

What have TML accomplished so far this year that makes them relevant and which I'm, apparently, trying to minimize?

They went from the worst team in the league last season to a top 3 team in the division. They have one of the best rookies in the history of the NHL and other exciting rookies like Mitch Marner. I don't think you need to go to the conference finals to be a relevant team. The Leafs have proven this year that they're in the conversation as one of the better teams in the East. They still are probably a couple years and a defenseman away from being any sort of contender, but they're at least 10 steps ahead of where the Wings are.

 

[Red Stanley]

Indeed. One team saw the reality, addressed it, and has made progress. The other is digging in their heels to fight an impossible battle against Father Time.

Digging in their heels by ... selling at the deadline. That's literally the only action that has transpired since the then, yet you wrote the epitaph on the post-streak era already.

What actions? Getting a few 3rd rounders? Teams both in and out of the playoffs make those type of moves often. The actions that will matter will be who is protected, what coaches stay, what they do on draft day, and what (if anything) happens in the trade market and free agency.

Again, only actual things to have transpired since the deadline have been positive. You're condemning actions that haven't transpired yet.

And I no longer have any faith in Ken Holland to handle those things with a realistic eye on both the state of the franchise and how to improve it.

And we get to the base argument used to support any and every position no matter how irrational it may be ...

 

[Heaton]

Again, only actual things to have transpired since the deadline have been positive. You're condemning actions that haven't transpired yet.

We can judge him based on things he's done in the past and what he says he's going to do. He says he has no interested in rebuilding this team. Trading a couple expiring contracts that weren't going to re-sign here anyway shouldn't tell anyone that Holland is serious about fixing the issue this team has.

Once we see actual evidence of Holland fixing the defense and developing elite talent, we have no reason to believe anything he's doing is going to work.

 

[Red Stanley]

1. Stop pretending like you can make the playoffs and rebuild at the same time.

It's not pretending if you do it at least once, which he did. Failed miserably the second time, though. Once the failure was complete, he promptly sold assets for picks. I'd call that a good first step.

2. Stop saying that 'we haven't had high picks so we could not have rebuilded' while having the message that we're still trying to make the playoffs which prevents the team from having the high picks necessary to properly rebuild.

Yet it's the truth. They were still competitive for a couple of years after the last championship. The past 5 years it has been all about extending the streak as the immediate goal, with a split emphasis on retooling. It didn't work due to the higher picks mostly not working out. Now that the streak is over, the rebuild "should" take priority. Whether it will remains to be seen. So far so good, though, unless you think interviews are worth more than actions.

3. Be more proactive in incorporating younger players into the lineup instead of waiting for injuries to be one of the main avenues to open up a roster spot.

Yes, absolutely agree. Should always have a healthy turnover happening, especially in the new NHL.

4. If Holland approached the rebuild as a journey to get back to the championship ways, he would have full support. Instead, he used the streak as a crutch to allow the franchise to sink into mediocrity.

How many teams can use that as a blueprint for rebuilding properly? Don't have Holland as a GM, while on a 25-year playoff run. Check.

5. Embrace the situation we're in instead of denying it. Holland acts like the fans are idiots when it comes to the length of a rebuild. I've already said this a dozen times, but rebuilds take 10 years because the management who start the rebuild does a terrible job. What rebuild has taken 10 years where management was in charge the entire time?. The Oilers had to change management. The Blackhawks had to change management. The Leafs had to change management.

You're just making a list of the reasons why you hate Holland, aren't you?

They went from the worst team in the league last season to a top 3 team in the division. They have one of the best rookies in the history of the NHL and other exciting rookies like Mitch Marner. I don't think you need to go to the conference finals to be a relevant team. The Leafs have proven this year that they're in the conversation as one of the better teams in the East. They still are probably a couple years and a defenseman away from being any sort of contender, but they're at least 10 steps ahead of where the Wings are.

First of all, kudos to them for getting something good out of being so terribly bad for so very long. That said, pump the breaks on all this praise. They haven't even locked a playoff spot as of right now in the WEAKEST DIVISION UNDER THE SUN. That somehow gives them relevance and makes them one of the better teams in the East? Wow ... just freaking wow.

 

[Red Stanley]

We can judge him based on things he's done in the past and what he says he's going to do. He says he has no interested in rebuilding this team. Trading a couple expiring contracts that weren't going to re-sign here anyway shouldn't tell anyone that Holland is serious about fixing the issue this team has.

Once we see actual evidence of Holland fixing the defense and developing elite talent, we have no reason to believe anything he's doing is going to work.

You're absolutely free to be as judgemental as you want to be. No pretense of reason or objectivity is required.

 

[Heaton]

It's not pretending if you do it at least once, which he did. Failed miserably the second time, though. Once the failure was complete, he promptly sold assets for picks. I'd call that a good first step.

When? Holland has never rebuilt a team without having any elite players. If you're talking about after 2002, he still had multiple elite players to build around from the pre-cap era.

First of all, kudos to them for getting something good out of being so terribly bad for so very long. That said, pump the breaks on all this praise. They haven't even locked a playoff spot as of right now in the WEAKEST DIVISION UNDER THE SUN. That somehow gives them relevance and makes them one of the better teams in the East? Wow ... just freaking wow.

Considering we're supposed to praise Holland for doing something so painfully easy and obvious like trading Ott and Vanek, I'm pretty sure I'm safe to heap some praise on a Maple Leaf team who has rookies breaking historic team records left and right.

 

[Heaton]

You're absolutely free to be as judgemental as you want to be. No pretense of reason or objectivity is required.

Meh, I think that's a bit of a hypocritical viewpoint. I don't think people on either side of the fence is being overly biased, I just think they have a difference of opinion. I feel I'm being pretty reasonable with my assessment, you and others may not agree with me, but I would hope you would be able to see where I'm coming from.

I see where people who defend Holland are coming from too, I see the reasons and understand them, I just don't agree. I'm not satisfied with the evidence given that Holland's plan will work, I haven't seen enough examples where a team has rebuilt without drafting extremely high for at least two seasons.

We're in uncharted territory and we can only look at how things have worked for other teams in the post-cap era. I've yet to see a team rebuild like Holland wants to in the post-cap era, if it works - great! But I'm worried that we're 2-5 seasons from realizing that it doesn't work and by then Holland will have either moved up stairs, or taken over a team on the cusp of winning again which better suits his abilities.

 

[Ricelund]

We're in uncharted territory and we can only look at how things have worked for other teams in the post-cap era. I've yet to see a team rebuild like Holland wants to in the post-cap era, if it works - great! But I'm worried that we're 2-5 seasons from realizing that it doesn't work and by then Holland will have either moved up stairs, or taken over a team on the cusp of winning again which better suits his abilities.

Hey, Lou is 74 years old...

 

[Red Stanley]

When? Holland has never rebuilt a team without having any elite players. If you're talking about after 2002, he still had multiple elite players to build around from the pre-cap era.

So? He still successfully transitioned from one championship core to the next. That qualifies as rebuilding on the fly.

Considering we're supposed to praise Holland for doing something so painfully easy and obvious like trading Ott and Vanek, I'm pretty sure I'm safe to heap some praise on a Maple Leaf team who has rookies breaking historic team records left and right.

I mean you can spin anything into whatever you want. It just looks like blatant double standard to me /shrug

Meh, I think that's a bit of a hypocritical viewpoint. I don't think people on either side of the fence is being overly biased, I just think they have a difference of opinion. I feel I'm being pretty reasonable with my assessment, you and others may not agree with me, but I would hope you would be able to see where I'm coming from.

I see where people who defend Holland are coming from too, I see the reasons and understand them, I just don't agree. I'm not satisfied with the evidence given that Holland's plan will work, I haven't seen enough examples where a team has rebuilt without drafting extremely high for at least two seasons.

We're in uncharted territory and we can only look at how things have worked for other teams in the post-cap era. I've yet to see a team rebuild like Holland wants to in the post-cap era, if it works - great! But I'm worried that we're 2-5 seasons from realizing that it doesn't work and by then Holland will have either moved up stairs, or taken over a team on the cusp of winning again which better suits his abilities.

The bias against is much stronger and more prevalent than the bias for. I'm no big fan of his and would love to see someone with a fresher vision at the helm, but can't deny his track record and won't accuse him of things he hasn't done yet. As you said, with uncharted territory ahead, it's hard to predict what will happen. Examples of what has been may turn out to be completely irrelevant.

 

[TheMule93]

So? He still successfully transitioned from one championship core to the next. That qualifies as rebuilding on the fly.

He transferred a forward corps because he got lucky in the draft, but Lidstrom was still the backbone of our eliteness so it wasn't a full transition. Once he retired we were never gonna win a cup again without a replacement (doesn't necessarily have to be on his level though haha, suter would have made things interesting for a few years - especially 2013)

 

[Heaton]

So? He still successfully transitioned from one championship core to the next. That qualifies as rebuilding on the fly.

He still had Lidstrom, this team has no Lidstrom or Datsyuk or prime Zetterberg. It's not even close to the same thing.

The bias against is much stronger and more prevalent than the bias for. I'm no big fan of his and would love to see someone with a fresher vision at the helm, but can't deny his track record and won't accuse him of things he hasn't done yet. As you said, with uncharted territory ahead, it's hard to predict what will happen. Examples of what has been may turn out to be completely irrelevant.

He has no track record for this.

 

[Flowah]

Can't compare that to Detroit. Coming into a team after they've made the playoffs once in the last decade and haven't won a cup in a lifetime means you can talk about pain and talk about a longterm process and dangle the idea of a cup as a carrot and fans will eat it up.
Different expectations in Detroit.

I would think expectations from both fanbases are the same. Be competitive.

What have TML accomplished so far this year that makes them relevant and which I'm, apparently, trying to minimize?

It seems so weird to be you, where you can never extrapolate into the future and can only judge what has already happened. I imagine that you are unable to plan for anything because who knows what could possibly happen. Everything is equally likely. You're as likely to be caught in a sharknado as you are to skin your knee or stub your toe tomorrow. How can one know?

Or. Now stay with me here...

We can make reasonable guesses as to future outcomes based on patterns and history. That's pretty much what makes humans so dominant on this planet. Foresight, forethinking.

For example it didn't take a genius to realize that Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin on the same team would make them damn competitive for the cup. It didn't take a genius to realize Kane/Toews/Keith would be cup contenders. I wonder if you'd have been at the draft a couple years ago at Edmonton's table saying "BUT WHAT HAS CONNOR DONE TO PROVE HE'S RELEVANT AT THE NHL LEVEL? HE'S NEVER EVEN PLAYED A SINGLE NHL GAME. HE HASN'T ACCOMPLISHED ANYTHING." I don't think it takes a genius to recognize Connor McDavid is a special talent and could instantly make the Oilers a far better team, which he has.

In that same vein, sure, TML hasn't won anything yet. But look at their team. Look at their management and their coach. They're stocked with young, elite talent. They've got great advanced states. They've got an incredibly bright future. They're trending way up. Yes, that makes them relevant. I doubt there's a single coach or analyst around the league who would trade the Leaf's situation for the Wing's. I bet 99.9% (always a contrarian or two) would say the Leafs are 100x more relevant than the Wings right now and for the next few years as we continue to bottom feed with our abysmal roster and the Leafs continue to climb.