The Official Tank Thread III

[Red Stanley]

Sure it does. He's the one driving the boat. He's the one who can trade picks and young assets for veterans. He's the one who can tie up millions on questionable UFAs to make the playoffs again.

How the team rebuilds is just as important as that it rebuilds. If you do it wrong, you make things drastically worse.

Anything is possible. It just hasn't happened yet and everything that has since it became clear we were missing tells me the opposite of what you suggest.

 

[Dotter]

No reasonable person would believe that.

Their forward core is already good regardless of their age. Even if it takes them a few years to get the necessary piece(s) on the blueline, all of their core forwards will still be young and under 30.

They're in very good shape organizationally speaking. If Detroit was already sitting where they are, most of us here would be pretty ecstatic.

They proved nothing other than how to tank. Successfully or unsuccessfully is still TBD. They were gifted a generational talent, but then again, Nucks will never win a cup with the Sedin twins. TML need to prove way more than they have now to be in the talks. I'm not sold.

 

[Dotter]

Another great quote from that video (8:05):

"I'm the general manager. As long as I'm the general manager, I want us to be the very best that we can be. I don't believe in tear-downs or massive rebuilds because I don't believe that you can just guarantee that the end result is going to turn out to be Stanley Cups and dynasties."

We're doomed. We're avoiding doing the right thing because it won't guarantee us a cup. But in the meantime, we're perfectly content doing something that has even less of a chance to work, because at least we can make the playoffs that way.

So the real question is... how do we get Holland fired? Could we make a big petition? We could at least get it on the radar that we're unhappy with him.

You conveniently failed to mention that history has proven (he used examples) that when you purposely tank for picks it's hard to bring the winning culture back after you lose it. He is right. This isn't NHL17

 

[Heaton]

You conveniently failed to mention that history has proven (he used examples) that when you tank it's hard to bring the winning culture back. He is right. This isn't NHL17

No it isn't. You get elite talent, you win again, it's simple. Edmonton got their 'culture' back in two seasons. Same with Toronto.

Want to lose the culture for a long time? Do what Ken Holland is doing. Make this organization bad to average for the next 20 years.

 

[Dotter]

No it isn't. You get elite talent, you win again, it's simple. Edmonton got their 'culture' back in two seasons. Same with Toronto.

Did they? Seems a bit premature proclaiming they have a "winning culture" before they win anything. One could go buy next weeks lottery ticket and place it at a safety deposit box and call themselves a millionaire. It'd make about as much sense.

 

[Heaton]

Did they? Seems a bit premature proclaiming they have a "winning culture" before they win anything.

Not really. But seriously, it's silly to nitpick every other organization and ignore the Wings issues and how poorly Holland is handling the failing franchise.

 

[Dotter]

Not really. But seriously, it's silly to nitpick every other organization and ignore the Wings issues and how poorly Holland is handling the failing franchise.

It's not Holland, it's the design of the new NHL. All teams will fall. No team will have a 25 year streak anymore. Rebuilds don't take 3 years. They can take 10+ years.

I'm not convinced that there is a default way to rebuild a franchise. I am not convinced there is only one right way to do it.

From all the current teams that won, none did it liked the TMLs. And none did it in just 3 to 5 years.

 

[Winger98]

Another great quote from that video (8:05):

"I'm the general manager. As long as I'm the general manager, I want us to be the very best that we can be. I don't believe in tear-downs or massive rebuilds because I don't believe that you can just guarantee that the end result is going to turn out to be Stanley Cups and dynasties."

We're doomed. We're avoiding doing the right thing because it won't guarantee us a cup. But in the meantime, we're perfectly content doing something that has even less of a chance to work, because at least we can make the playoffs that way.

So the real question is... how do we get Holland fired? Could we make a big petition? We could at least get it on the radar that we're unhappy with him.

Being the best they can be doesn't necessarily mean they'll be any better than this year. Are we really going to lobby for him to gut the majority of actual talent from this club just to ensure a better draft position next June?

Is this looking like Holland taking the most austere path towards team (re)building? No, but I also don't get the impression he's going to sell the farm to make one last hard push at the post-season.

 

[Winger98]

teams rose and fell well before the cap system, and rebuilds have always been a massive question mark. And any team having a 25 year streak is incredibly rare.

Maybe TML's aggressiveness is new, but flailing around the draft to get top talent isn't. Toronto just decided they didn't want to be mediocre and would rather be out and out bad, with a greater hope of being great at some point.

 

[Red Stanley]

No it isn't. You get elite talent, you win again, it's simple. Edmonton got their 'culture' back in two seasons. Same with Toronto.

Want to lose the culture for a long time? Do what Ken Holland is doing. Make this organization bad to average for the next 20 years.

Why do you people keep talking about the Leafs like they've actually done something in like forever? What have they won in order to (re)claim a winning culture? They haven't even secured a PO spot yet in the ********* division to be ****** since the glory days of the Southeast. Potential means nothing until it's realized.

But all is not lost, greener grass symptom sufferers. We'll soon be the envy of other teams' #brightfuture enthusiasts for years to come.

 

[Heaton]

Why do you people keep talking about the Leafs like they've actually done something in like forever? What have they won in order to (re)claim a winning culture? They haven't even secured a PO spot yet in the ********* division to be ****** since the glory days of the Southeast. Potential means nothing until it's realized.

But all is not lost, greener grass symptom sufferers. We'll soon be the envy of other teams' #brightfuture enthusiasts for years to come.

They're relevant again, that's what matters. The Wings aren't relevant anymore and we have GM who is too stubborn to actually do what is necessary to fix the team. Get ready for a summer packed full of more bad contacts and zero proactive management.

 

[Flowah]

Why do you people keep talking about the Leafs like they've actually done something in like forever? What have they won in order to (re)claim a winning culture? They haven't even secured a PO spot yet in the ********* division to be ****** since the glory days of the Southeast. Potential means nothing until it's realized.

But all is not lost, greener grass symptom sufferers. We'll soon be the envy of other teams' #brightfuture enthusiasts for years to come.

What is a winning culture exactly?

Is it winning the Cup? Then we haven't had a winning culture since 2008.

Is it winning playoff series? Then we've only had a winning culture once in the past like 5 years.

Is it making the playoffs? Then Edmonton and Toronto have a winning culture now.

"Winning culture" is a vague, nebulous, useless term that some fans use to make themselves feel better about not tanking while their team flounders at the bottom fo the league.

 

[Heaton]

Is this looking like Holland taking the most austere path towards team (re)building? No, but I also don't get the impression he's going to sell the farm to make one last hard push at the post-season.

No, but making moves to only address the short term and try to make the playoffs just delays the healing process. Whether or not we need to win the lottery aside, we need more than one year of high picks.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Why do you people keep talking about the Leafs like they've actually done something in like forever? What have they won in order to (re)claim a winning culture? They haven't even secured a PO spot yet in the ********* division to be ****** since the glory days of the Southeast. Potential means nothing until it's realized.

But all is not lost, greener grass symptom sufferers. We'll soon be the envy of other teams' #brightfuture enthusiasts for years to come.

You're correct that they haven't achieved anything yet. But which team has more potential to do something great? Which team would you rather watch?

The Leafs have 6 players with 50 points or more, three of whom are 20 years old or younger.

The Wings have Zetterberg.

There's no replacement for Z as the #1 center. We desperately need a #1 dman. The goaltending is between an injury-prone 33 year-old and a 25 year old who hasn't played consistently well in over a season now. Those three positions are the foundation of a competitive team and the Wings only have a 36 year old Zetterberg going for them.

Even if the Wings tank and fill one of those weaknesses, they're still not there yet. But what's the alternative? Keep signing aging vets and hoping to be a playoff bubble team until we hit the lottery in drafting and a couple late 1st rounders turn into a franchise d man and center? That's a greater likelihood than a tear down?

 

[Red Stanley]

They're relevant again, that's what matters. The Wings aren't relevant anymore and we have GM who is too stubborn to actually do what is necessary to fix the team. Get ready for a summer packed full of more bad contacts and zero proactive management.

Did not realize just making the playoffs - unless you're the Red Wings - makes you relevant. Not going to comment on the future, since my crystal ball ran out of batteries. I'm happy yours is still working. Could you tell me when we finally get to drive flying cars?

 

[Red Stanley]

What is a winning culture exactly?

Is it winning the Cup? Then we haven't had a winning culture since 2008.

Is it winning playoff series? Then we've only had a winning culture once in the past like 5 years.

Is it making the playoffs? Then Edmonton and Toronto have a winning culture now.

"Winning culture" is a vague, nebulous, useless term that some fans use to make themselves feel better about not tanking while their team flounders at the bottom fo the league.

Winning culture is another term for overall compete level. There are ways of enhancing and channeling players' natural competitiveness. If management opts to intentionally and openly tank for picks, it basically kills any motivation beyond going through the motions to collect a check or chase a new contract. Of course, if you put together a bad team that wastes player efforts, you'll end up with current results. Anyway, the point is winning culture is definitely not a vague and useless fan term.

 

[The Zermanator]

Did not realize just making the playoffs - unless you're the Red Wings - makes you relevant. Not going to comment on the future, since my crystal ball ran out of batteries. I'm happy yours is still working. Could you tell me when we finally get to drive flying cars?

Be as condescending as you want, it's just silly that some people can't seem to acknowledge that teams like Toronto and Edmonton are in a much better position than the Wings. These teams have elite young players (super elite in McDavid's case) that are only going to get better. We have no one near the level of a McDavid/Matthews/Draisatl/Marner. Our team is being carried by a player who has had back surgery and will be gone sooner than later. Don't need a crystal ball to see that's clearly the case.

Ken Holland has not constructed this team well and it looks to only get worse as he seemingly refuses to acknowledge what is painfully obvious. Prices are always too high according to the man himself so trades are out of the question, and elite players don't make it to free agency as a general rule so that's out too.

Which brings us to the draft, here's how I look at it. In the past 10+ years, the only place the Wings have been locked out of was the top 15. Every player picked behind that was available to them. So the only players that were unavailable were the those chosen in the top 15. And what has eluded the Wings in the draft for 10+ years? Well it also happens to be one of the necessary components of a contender, elite players. But no, let's continue to go with Holland's genius patchwork plan of average players on bloated contracts and see how that goes?

 

[Syckle78]

Winning culture is another term for overall compete level. There are ways of enhancing and channeling players' natural competitiveness. If management opts to intentionally and openly tank for picks, it basically kills any motivation beyond going through the motions to collect a check or chase a new contract. Of course, if you put together a bad team that wastes player efforts, you'll end up with current results. Anyway, the point is winning culture is definitely not a vague and useless fan term.

Yea it is. Every team has a losing culture until they have legit talent in the right spots. Funny how that works.

 

[Syckle78]

Did not realize just making the playoffs - unless you're the Red Wings - makes you relevant. Not going to comment on the future, since my crystal ball ran out of batteries. I'm happy yours is still working. Could you tell me when we finally get to drive flying cars?

No offense but what an absolute load. First of all there's context in making the playoffs. You going to argue there's no difference between an old beaten down team fighting with all there might to flop across the finish line one last time and a young up and coming team finding their way taking a step towards being a contender? Maybe the problem with some of you all is you're too young or new to the team to know anything other than winning to some degree. I'll tell ya what it was a helluva lot more fun and exciting making the playoffs the five years prior to the streak starting than it was the last five years limping to the glue factory. Part of the fan experience is the build up. It's what made 97 so special. All the pain and agony of defeat makes winning worthwhile.

To the rest of your post if you need a crystal ball to tell you who is in better shape a team with 5 50+ point players 3 of whom are rookies or the team with one who is 37 well I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Flowah]

Winning culture is another term for overall compete level. There are ways of enhancing and channeling players' natural competitiveness. If management opts to intentionally and openly tank for picks, it basically kills any motivation beyond going through the motions to collect a check or chase a new contract. Of course, if you put together a bad team that wastes player efforts, you'll end up with current results.

There is absolutely no objective way to measure this. It's all just your subjective opinion.

In fact by your "standard," if it can so be called, any team in the league can have a winning culture. Hell even the Avalanche could have one, as long as they have a high compete level. They may not have the talent but they can try their hardest! You just sound like the scouts from before sabermetrics, going off gut feelings, thinking you have some kind of magical intuition about what compete level is and what "winning culture" is.

Anyway, the point is winning culture is definitely not a vague and useless fan term.

Then you may want to try and define it in such a way where it isn't vague and useless. So far you have failed to do so.

 

[Red Stanley]

Be as condescending as you want, it's just silly that some people can't seem to acknowledge that teams like Toronto and Edmonton are in a much better position than the Wings. These teams have elite young players (super elite in McDavid's case) that are only going to get better. We have no one near the level of a McDavid/Matthews/Draisatl/Marner. Our team is being carried by a player who has had back surgery and will be gone sooner than later. Don't need a crystal ball to see that's clearly the case.

Ken Holland has not constructed this team well and it looks to only get worse as he seemingly refuses to acknowledge what is painfully obvious. Prices are always too high according to the man himself so trades are out of the question, and elite players don't make it to free agency as a general rule so that's out too.

Which brings us to the draft, here's how I look at it. In the past 10+ years, the only place the Wings have been locked out of was the top 15. Every player picked behind that was available to them. So the only players that were unavailable were the those chosen in the top 15. And what has eluded the Wings in the draft for 10+ years? Well it also happens to be one of the necessary components of a contender, elite players. But no, let's continue to go with Holland's genius patchwork plan of average players on bloated contracts and see how that goes?

Yes, they have elite talent because they haven't been competitive for a long time. Yay for them. Yes, Holland patched together a frankenstein monster of a team that has finally unstitched itself into a morbid pile of crap. Now we get higher picks. Yay for us. No, I don't lament the fact we haven't sucked enough to pick high 10 years ago in order to be contenders now, because we actually did win 8 years ago and went to the final the year after. Don't see how any of this makes the Leafs and Oilers relevant teams with winning cultures. They'd have to win something first.

 

[Red Stanley]

Yea it is. Every team has a losing culture until they have legit talent in the right spots. Funny how that works.

Talent and competitiveness aren't necessarily the same and an excessive amount of one can often compensate for a lack in the other. Hard-working teams deployed and motivated the right way beat more talented on paper teams all the time. Funny how that works.

 

[The Zermanator]

Yea it is. Every team has a losing culture until they have legit talent in the right spots. Funny how that works.

There are losing teams and there are winning teams, the winning teams have a winning culture. Simple as that.

 

[Red Stanley]

No offense but what an absolute load. First of all there's context in making the playoffs. You going to argue there's no difference between an old beaten down team fighting with all there might to flop across the finish line one last time and a young up and coming team finding their way taking a step towards being a contender? Maybe the problem with some of you all is you're too young or new to the team to know anything other than winning to some degree. I'll tell ya what it was a helluva lot more fun and exciting making the playoffs the five years prior to the streak starting than it was the last five years limping to the glue factory. Part of the fan experience is the build up. It's what made 97 so special. All the pain and agony of defeat makes winning worthwhile.

To the rest of your post if you need a crystal ball to tell you who is in better shape a team with 5 50+ point players 3 of whom are rookies or the team with one who is 37 well I don't know what to tell you.

The only difference is perception. If the result is the same, there is no effective difference. Plenty of "contenders" have won little to nothing with their current cores. The Leafs and Oilers have won even less. That's a fact. What they'll accomplish going forward is pure speculation, requiring a crystal ball with fresh batteries to pass off as certainty.

 

[The Zermanator]

Yes, they have elite talent because they haven't been competitive for a long time. Yay for them. Yes, Holland patched together a frankenstein monster of a team that has finally unstitched itself into a morbid pile of crap. Now we get higher picks. Yay for us. No, I don't lament the fact we haven't sucked enough to pick high 10 years ago in order to be contenders now, because we actually did win 8 years ago and went to the final the year after. Don't see how any of this makes the Leafs and Oilers relevant teams with winning cultures. They'd have to win something first.

What does their being bad 10 years ago have to do with today? They have new management teams that have implemented a strategy and found success. That's the thing about a bottom-feeder, you're pretty much always starting from square one. The Wings need to go back to square one for a few years.