The Official Tank Thread III

[Pavels Dog]

After Vegas takes Howard and we're looking at a Mrazek - Coreau tandem, the Red Wings are going to be a ton worse.

Well, you know, unless Mrazek starts looking like an NHL goalie again.

 

[Frk It]

Well, you know, unless Mrazek starts looking like an NHL goalie again.

Yeah, not like he's shown that before or anything. Or even looked like a really good one.

 

[TatarTangle]

Well, you know, unless Mrazek starts looking like an NHL goalie again.

A top 5 goalie!

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Yeah, not like he's shown that before or anything. Or even looked like a really good one.

He obviously has shown that. But he's not looked that way for over a year and never done it for an entire season so the concern is warranted.

He's only 25 though. Hopefully this is a bump in his development and not a trend.

 

[Frk It]

He obviously has shown that. But he's not looked that way for over a year and never done it for an entire season so the concern is warranted.

He's only 25 though. Hopefully this is a bump in his development and not a trend.

Yeah, I get that. I'd like to see what he looks like playing in front of a defense that isn't a complete train wreck before I give up hope, personally.

I think he is a competitor, and although it seems like he relies far too much on his athleticism, I think he can be one of the better starters in the league if he is on a solid team.

Just my two cents on Mrazek.

 

[Retire91]

Mrazek does have a competitive drive but I feel like anyone's confidence could get shaken in front of a defense this inept. Mrazek has never played in front of even an average NHL defense.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Yeah, I get that. I'd like to see what he looks like playing in front of a defense that isn't a complete train wreck before I give up hope, personally.

Enh. Good goalies can show well behind average to poor defenses. We know this is true because we've seen it happen often.

I think Mrazek is a good goalie, but I'm not sure he can consistently be a good one behind an average to poor defense. He seems, so far, to be one of those guys who gets rattled by a team struggling in front of him rather than one of those guys who takes up the challenge.

 

[Frk It]

Enh. Good goalies can show well behind average to poor defenses. We know this is true because we've seen it happen often.

For a sustained time? Or for a 1/2 season? I can't think of too many examples of goalies posting great stats on garbage teams. If I can, the next season is usually vastly different.

I think Mrazek is a good goalie, but I'm not sure he can consistently be a good one behind an average to poor defense. He seems, so far, to be one of those guys who gets rattled by a team struggling in front of him rather than one of those guys who takes up the challenge.

I think goalies that can be consistently good behind garbage defenses, would be elite goalies, and I don't think he will be that. Probably just one of the better starters in the league that catches fire from time to time.

 

[Retire91]

I've seen goalies like Luongo, Price, Rinne, Babrovski consistently carry bad teams in the past. I am not sure I would say it happens 'often' and I don't think at this point anyone thinks Mrazek is the next Price. But we can hope he will develop some consistency and perform better with an improving D.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I've seen goalies like Luongo, Price, Rinne, Babrovski consistently carry bad teams in the past. I am not sure I would say it happens 'often' and I don't think at this point anyone thinks Mrazek is the next Price. But we can hope he will develop some consistency and perform better with an improving D.

All of those guys listed had several years especially when younger where it didn't go so hot either. Well I don't really remember Luongo having one but the other three sure did so I looked them up.

In 2008-09 (2nd Season) and 2012-13 Carey Price had a .905 sv%

Bobrovsky had 2011-12 (.899 2nd season) and 2015-16 (.908) sv%

Rinne who has actually had very similar numbers to Howard for most of his career so hard to call him truly elite and has bridged the .920 sv% in only three seasons of his career. Low mark of .902 in 13-14 though injured and a .908 in 15-16. He also dropped in his second year from a .917 to .911

Is Mrazek's .901 worse than a couple, sure, but Bobrovsky had a really rocky second year going back to a back-up role. I expect him to collect his second Vezina in Vegas this off-season.

Also most NHL goalies seem to have a bumpy second or third year. The scouting reports get out and it is time for adjustments, the ball is in Mrazek's court to improve like other great goalies.

Mrazek has top five goalie kind of talent. I hope he figures it out as that could be huge for us.

 

[Syckle78]

The perception of rinne is rather odd. He's always spoken of as a sure top 5 goalie. Well,more so before this year,but his year to year numbers are always up and down. Despite always having the benefit of playing behind one of the top defenses in the league and usually defensively responsible forwards his numbers don't really add up to the reputation he has amongst fans lead wide.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The perception of rinne is rather odd. He's always spoken of as a sure top 5 goalie. Well,more so before this year,but his year to year numbers are always up and down. Despite always having the benefit of playing behind one of the top defenses in the league and usually defensively responsible forwards his numbers don't really add up to the reputation he has amongst fans lead wide.

Him and Howard had very similar numbers up until a couple years ago.

I think Rinne is one of those guys when he gets hot he looks like a total world beater. Massive in the net, but with good movement and surprising puck skills. I think it is the fluidity of watching him play, but he doesn't really play at that level all that often and because the Preds are the Preds most people only get to see them come playoff time where he has been good for the most part and had a couple of his big stretches. He is a goalie I would struggle to see having the ability to put together a long enough stretch to win four rounds, but who knows the might have enough offense in Nashville that it finally won't matter.

I hope if Nashville wins the cup Subban has a big Cup party in Montreal and celebrates with their fans as a big **** you to the Habs organization.

 

[Red Stanley]

There's no quick fixing this current team. It's just too badly-built and there's virtually nothing Holland can do to address that with trades/fa signings. Don't care what he says in public, it's more likely than not we finish in the same place or lower next season, even with certain individual improvements (which will probably be counteracted by individual declines and the division unlikely being as putrid as it was). My worry is the draft.

 

[Syckle78]

Him and Howard had very similar numbers up until a couple years ago.

I think Rinne is one of those guys when he gets hot he looks like a total world beater. Massive in the net, but with good movement and surprising puck skills. I think it is the fluidity of watching him play, but he doesn't really play at that level all that often and because the Preds are the Preds most people only get to see them come playoff time where he has been good for the most part and had a couple of his big stretches. He is a goalie I would struggle to see having the ability to put together a long enough stretch to win four rounds, but who knows the might have enough offense in Nashville that it finally won't matter.

I hope if Nashville wins the cup Subban has a big Cup party in Montreal and celebrates with their fans as a big **** you to the Habs organization.

Yea, I remember rinne was red hot before that hip injury a few years ago and was being talked about as being the best in the league and some how carried that perception. He never really recovered from it and went back to that ultra peak level.

Then I think it was the next year? That Howard was having the vezina caliber season leading up to his injury right around the all star break. He didn't even at the time get the pub that rinne was getting despite his ridiculous season and became a sudden albatross amongst fans around the league. Just seems par for the course for Detroit goalies,hell even half the fan base usually hates them.

Right there with you with subban. Preds are like my top 3 or 4 teams I'd like to see win..they're infinitely more likeable now that that pos webber is gone. Plus anything to cause the habs fan base some heartache is fine by me.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

There's no quick fixing this current team. It's just too badly-built and there's virtually nothing Holland can do to address that with trades/fa signings. Don't care what he says in public, it's more likely than not we finish in the same place or lower next season, even with certain individual improvements (which will probably be counteracted by individual declines and the division unlikely being as putrid as it was). My worry is the draft.

Respectfully, if I may, why do you defend him if you believe all of that: you know, the team being badly built and worrying about the draft?

 

[Red Stanley]

Respectfully, if I may, why do you defend him if you believe all of that: you know, the team being badly built and worrying about the draft?

I find certain things said and assumed about him unfair. Fine with giving him an honest shot at a major rebuild to see what he does with the opportunity, but wouldn't blink if we got a new GM tomorrow.

 

[Winger98]

There's no quick fixing this current team. It's just too badly-built and there's virtually nothing Holland can do to address that with trades/fa signings. Don't care what he says in public, it's more likely than not we finish in the same place or lower next season, even with certain individual improvements (which will probably be counteracted by individual declines and the division unlikely being as putrid as it was). My worry is the draft.

Which is quite possibly true. My only qualm is that if Holland has been directed the past five years to maintain the streak and remain as competitive as possible - though not necessarily win the cup competitive - he doesn't deserve as much hate as he gets for the moves he's made. I don't agree with them, but they're at least more defensible.

 

[Retire91]

All of those guys listed had several years especially when younger where it didn't go so hot either. Well I don't really remember Luongo having one but the other three sure did so I looked them up.

In 2008-09 (2nd Season) and 2012-13 Carey Price had a .905 sv%

Bobrovsky had 2011-12 (.899 2nd season) and 2015-16 (.908) sv%

Rinne who has actually had very similar numbers to Howard for most of his career so hard to call him truly elite and has bridged the .920 sv% in only three seasons of his career. Low mark of .902 in 13-14 though injured and a .908 in 15-16. He also dropped in his second year from a .917 to .911

Is Mrazek's .901 worse than a couple, sure, but Bobrovsky had a really rocky second year going back to a back-up role. I expect him to collect his second Vezina in Vegas this off-season.

Also most NHL goalies seem to have a bumpy second or third year. The scouting reports get out and it is time for adjustments, the ball is in Mrazek's court to improve like other great goalies.

Mrazek has top five goalie kind of talent. I hope he figures it out as that could be huge for us.

I like that, in a best case I could see Mrazek having a Babrovski like path

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Which is quite possibly true. My only qualm is that if Holland has been directed the past five years to maintain the streak and remain as competitive as possible - though not necessarily win the cup competitive - he doesn't deserve as much hate as he gets for the moves he's made. I don't agree with them, but they're at least more defensible.

Most criticism of Holland around here is really a criticism of ownership. People criticize Holland because they think that by removing him, we will be able to change the direction of the organization is shorter order. Sadly, we won't see a true rebuild until ownership wants a true rebuild. I honestly have no idea what Holland really thinks of this team at this point.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I don't buy into the idea that's it's simply ownership not caring about contending anymore.

 

[Ezekial]

I don't buy into the idea that's it's simply ownership not caring about contending anymore.

You shouldn't because it's not what's been said, but you should buy into them wanting to extend the steak and be a constant playoff team.

 

[Invictus12]

None of your posts disappoint, 1%er.



A lot of ramble.

Who said anything about expecting Detroit staying on top of the standings during the transition?

What I what is for Holland to show any sign that he understands that his team is not good and that they're not going to be suddenly good again overnight. Recognition really. Is that too much to ask? But all we hear from him is "oh, parity" and "if you get into the playoffs you've got a shot" and "are goal is to make the playoffs next season."

That's a plan that I don't agree with and quite frankly find awful and just seemingly delays the process of again building a contender.

It could be ramble or just a mistake on my part for giving too much credit to human intelligence at times...

Would there be any *****ing if we had a competitive team? You know, that ranks on top of the standings year after year? Competing for the cup etc... Is that not the source of the 'outrage' on this thread or any struggling team's thread? If we had a competitive team and they fail to win the cup, then people start questioning the captains, players, etc...

You don't see the sign of Holland's acknowledgement because you are very content on that whatever you believe is absolutely true. His philosophy is different and not that he's lacking the intent. You don't see the distinction between a different mind set and a lack of effort or emotional interest, I guess.

His philosophy is that building a team is a work in progress. You and like minded see it as burning the forest so that new plants can grow. I see your 'plan' as too reliant on luck. 'Get a high draft pick to get a superstar' and you can point to a team like Edmonton. On the other hand, I can point to twice as many teams that have so far gone nowhere by getting top draft picks. Nevermind the fact that it took Edmonton how long??? I would also like to point out that one year doesn't equal the same talent as the next. For example, if McDavid lives up to the hype, (so far, he's showing that he absolutely will) a player of his calibre, or anything even close to that is very unlikely to come along in the near future. Even then, if the odds are beaten, you still need guys like Lucic on your team; the Abdelkaders, Helms, etc...

Oh and I'm very positive that Holland will look to sign veteran players this offseason because believe it or not, we still have young folks on our club and they need guidance when things aren't going their way. Who's the best to do that? The players that have gone through ups and downs in this league.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I don't buy into the idea that's it's simply ownership not caring about contending anymore.

They've never once said that and their actions have never indicated that. If they didn't care about contending... they'd have eaten Datsyuk's deal among other things.

But they've continually made moves to try to compete. You can bash the efficacy of the deals they've made, but the driving force behind them is trying to win hockey games.

They seem to truly believe "get in and you have a shot". That's a fundamental difference in their thinking and the way most here will think about it. They've been on the other side, they know how easy it is to get thunderstruck in the first round.

And lastly, I don't think that 85 year old Mr. I would have had any tolerance for sucking on purpose. He'd kept being told to ratchet his Tigers payroll back by media and whoever because it was going to get bad... and he'd pull out another hundred million. I mean, do you think you could tell your 85 year boss with badly failing health that, even in the most wildly successful scenario, you'd be losing money and losing hockey games (and with it, fan support) for 3 years minimum?

 

[Frk It]

It could be ramble or just a mistake on my part for giving too much credit to human intelligence at times...

Would there be any *****ing if we had a competitive team? You know, that ranks on top of the standings year after year? Competing for the cup etc... Is that not the source of the 'outrage' on this thread or any struggling team's thread? If we had a competitive team and they fail to win the cup, then people start questioning the captains, players, etc...

You don't see the sign of Holland's acknowledgement because you are very content on that whatever you believe is absolutely true. His philosophy is different and not that he's lacking the intent. You don't see the distinction between a different mind set and a lack of effort or emotional interest, I guess.

His philosophy is that building a team is a work in progress. You and like minded see it as burning the forest so that new plants can grow. I see your 'plan' as too reliant on luck. 'Get a high draft pick to get a superstar' and you can point to a team like Edmonton. On the other hand, I can point to twice as many teams that have so far gone nowhere by getting top draft picks. Nevermind the fact that it took Edmonton how long??? I would also like to point out that one year doesn't equal the same talent as the next. For example, if McDavid lives up to the hype, (so far, he's showing that he absolutely will) a player of his calibre, or anything even close to that is very unlikely to come along in the near future. Even then, if the odds are beaten, you still need guys like Lucic on your team; the Abdelkaders, Helms, etc...

Oh and I'm very positive that Holland will look to sign veteran players this offseason because believe it or not, we still have young folks on our club and they need guidance when things aren't going their way. Who's the best to do that? The players that have gone through ups and downs in this league.

You're advocating a plan that is even more reliant on luck, FYI

Don't resort to drafting where the higher percentages lie = relying more on luck

 

[njx9]

Oh and I'm very positive that Holland will look to sign veteran players this offseason because believe it or not, we still have young folks on our club and they need guidance when things aren't going their way. Who's the best to do that? The players that have gone through ups and downs in this league.

You believe there isn't enough veteran 'guidance', whatever that means, on this team? Is it Z? Is he just not a leader anymore? Maybe it's Nielsen, Helm, Abbie, and Kronwall? How much bleeping veteran 'guidance' does a team need before it needs some actual talent? It's as ridiculous as the 'losing culture' crap.