The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part III

[TheBradyBunch]

@BondraTime I feel like Dorion allows his staff to do their job (sometimes to a fault (see: Boucher's boys)). What makes you think he doesn't allow his staff to make their own decisions? These recent picks - good and bad - reflect far more on the staff than they do on Dorion, imo.

 

[Ice-Tray]

That's not the only kind he drafts, but it will be what is brought up mostly because our big busts that are widely known and brought up (Cowen/Lazar) fit that type of guy.

Then guys like Englund, White, Bowers, Formenton, and to a lesser extent Tkachuk that are similar in the fact that they passed on guys who had much higher potential. All these guys (Englund not so much) should be certain to have 3rd line careers at a minimum, though not a high ceiling.

This team always bunts rather than going for a big time player, since 2010 the only star we have drafted is Stone, and soon to be Chabot, then we have drafted a ton of quality guys, who will never push a team over any kind of hump.

The Tkachuk pick really sinks in for me on what he values above other aspects, and not in a good way.

Obviously it's my opinion and doesn't mean a row of beans, but that's how I see it

Our big busts compare quite nicely to the rest of the NHL, given the low percentage chance of players even in the first and second round making the NHL as a long term career, I'd say we do pretty good.

The consensus opinion amongst pros is that Zadina doesn't have higher potential than BT, he has a different skill set but not a better prospect, and I don't think Formenton fits that list either given how well he's progressed since drafting him. We picked up guys like Chabot and Brown who also don't fit your 'bunt' theory, neither did Puemple.

It looks like our staff identifies players that have high hockey skill potential (all of them) and a high likelihood of making the NHL. You can have all of the potential in the world, but if that doesn't project to the NHL it's a bad first round pick, and you'd be first in line to lambaste the team for a wasted pick.

To me it looks like every fan could pick a drafting adjective 'bunt', skill, safe pick, bust, and there would be a group of players drafted that would slot into all of those categories. When people make generalizations like yours they have to leave out a bunch of names, or try and make them the exceptions. The reality is that we draft BPA and when all things are equal we seem to take the guy who has higher intangibles, but we don't have a draft board based on them, we want to pick the very best NHL possible at each pick.

You know your stuff Bondra, but I don't think it's a fair characterization to say our team goes safe and plug every year. It just isn't the case. BT is hardly a bunt, he has the potential to be one of the biggest impact players from the draft if he lives upon to his potential.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Our drafting prowess is seriously overrated, especially in recent years.

Lazar in 2013.
Colin White hasn't performed like we expected this year, but he might improve.
Bowers over Tolvanen was a joke.
And people will say it is way too early to declare this, but Zadina will be a much better player than Tkachuk.

Don’t forget Cowen, though to be fair they tried to trade up for Kadri

 

[Ice-Tray]

@BondraTime I feel like Dorion allows his staff to do their job (sometimes to a fault (see: Boucher's boys)). What makes you think he doesn't allow his staff to make their own decisions? These recent picks - good and bad - reflect far more on the staff than they do on Dorion, imo.

Agreed, Trent Mann looks like he's in charge of scouting, and seemed very much a driving force behind picking BT, as well as Docker. At the draft table we even heard of a moment where PD wanted to trade down again, but relented at the strong urgings of his scouting staff.

He's been on the other side for years, he knows what it's like.

 

[TheBradyBunch]

Agreed, Trent Mann looks like he's in charge of scouting, and seemed very much a driving force behind picking BT, as well as Docker. At the draft table we even heard of a moment where PD wanted to trade down again, but relented at the strong urgings of his scouting staff.

He's been on the other side for years, he knows what it's like.

Exactly - I meant to express this in my post, as a matter of fact.

 

[armani]

I will high five PD myself if he re-signs #65 to 8 years. Heck, I would hug him and slap his bum for a job well done.

Just do it, none of the rumoured deals are worth losing EK over. Convince him to stay and create a mini rebuild plan that would see some of the younger prospects, especially the bluechippers, make an impact within the next 3 years.

 

[BondraTime]

Our big busts compare quite nicely to the rest of the NHL, given the low percentage chance of players even in the first and second round making the NHL as a long term career, I'd say we do pretty good.

The consensus opinion amongst pros is that Zadina doesn't have higher potential than BT, he has a different skill set but not a better prospect, and I don't think Formenton fits that list either given how well he's progressed since drafting him. We picked up guys like Chabot and Brown who also don't fit your 'bunt' theory, neither did Puemple.

It looks like our staff identifies players that have high hockey skill potential (all of them) and a high likelihood of making the NHL. You can have all of the potential in the world, but if that doesn't project to the NHL it's a bad first round pick, and you'd be first in line to lambaste the team for a wasted pick.

To me it looks like every fan could pick a drafting adjective 'bunt', skill, safe pick, bust, and there would be a group of players drafted that would slot into all of those categories. When people make generalizations like yours they have to leave out a bunch of names, or try and make them the exceptions. The reality is that we draft BPA and when all things are equal we seem to take the guy who has higher intangibles, but we don't have a draft board based on them, we want to pick the very best NHL possible at each pick.

You know your stuff Bondra, but I don't think it's a fair characterization to say our team goes safe and plug every year. It just isn't the case. BT is hardly a bunt, he has the potential to be one of the biggest impact players from the draft if he lives upon to his potential.

Never said any different, I am a huge advocate of our amateur scouts, they are the only part of the organisation exceeding, even meeting, expectations. That doesn't change the fact that the Sens have a tendency to go after a certain group of players, or certain set of attributes with a set number of their picks; more so than the teams who have been getting high-end players in the drafts. Just like they also are the only team who continually, and pointlessly as of now, go to the wells of the NAHL and other obscure US leagues to take an overaged or unknown player (Novak/Burgess/Boyle/Leblanc/Shore(NCAA)/Loheit/Daccord). They are measurable draft tendencies.

I do wholeheartedly disagree that Tkachuk has higher potential than a number of guys drafted after him, I will agree he has among the highest floors, but lowest ceilings in the top 10. It doesn't matter what I think as the Sens choose fit to draft him, we can look back at it when there has been some hockey played to compare and evaluate him too, and I certainly hope I am dead wrong. Mann and co have forgotten more about scouting than I know, but I really don't see it. As of right now, I personally am displeased, but that is based on my own opinions.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I have to hand it to Pierre though.. he has certainly made discussing Senator player trades on the main boards more entertaining... apparently this has transcended hockey boards , rumors and twitter into real life.

 

[BUCKLE UP]

I love high fives

 

[armani]

I love high fives

Nah, you are more a fist bump and group hug kinda guy, PD loves hugs too.

 

[JungleBeat]

Yeah, our drafting has improved massively under Mann. I don't think with hindsight Dorion did a good job in that department previously. Most of the good picks were either Lowes or Forsberg's back then.

From what I understand as well, Tkachuk wasn't Mann's pick either. Dorion and Eugene should have differed to him. They'll pay dearly for it.

I think our drafting has stayed relatively the same with the exception of us drafting better from the eastern coast like Chabot and Batherson, which can be directed to Mann.

We’re still drafting two-way character guys with low ceilings like White,Bowers,Tkachuk,Formenton etc. That much has stayed the same. The Sens drafting is overrated.

 

[Ray Kinsella]

I will high five PD myself if he re-signs #65 to 8 years. Heck, I would hug him and slap his bum for a job well done.

Just do it, none of the rumoured deals are worth losing EK over. Convince him to stay and create a mini rebuild plan that would see some of the younger prospects, especially the bluechippers, make an impact within the next 3 years.

Agreed, minus the bum slap.

 

[BatherSeason]

Dorion has a busy off-season ahead

It is now July 23rd and Dorion has made a couple of depth signings while seemingly making very little progress in resigning Stone, Ceci, Duchene and Karlsson.

The Ottawa Senators have had the quietest summer of all teams in the league, in an off-season where we should be one of the busiest teams. Something is up.

 

[swiftwin]

Dorion has a busy off-season ahead

It is now July 23rd and Dorion has made a couple of depth signings while seemingly making very little progress in resigning Stone, Ceci, Duchene and Karlsson.

The Ottawa Senators have had the quietest summer of all teams in the league, in an off-season where we should be one of the busiest teams. Something is up.

I agree. Things are quiet... Too quiet. To me, the fact that Friedman reported that Karlsson wants to sign with the team, but not with the owner is a huge tell. Those two things are supposed to be the same thing. The fact that those two things are being considered two separate entities is a huge sign that there's a ton of stuff happening behind the scenes.

 

[armani]

I agree. Things are quiet... Too quiet. To me, the fact that Friedman reported that Karlsson wants to sign with the team, but not with the owner is a huge tell. Those two things are supposed to be the same thing. The fact that those two things are being considered two separate entities is a huge sign that there's a ton of stuff happening behind the scenes.

We are all speculating, but I agree the pindrop silence is odd. Then again, if the team was being sold, I would think there would be more leaks by now.

"We are hoping to get a new owner" gives me hope, that honest man could've said "probably not" but didn't in this case.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Dorion has a busy off-season ahead

It is now July 23rd and Dorion has made a couple of depth signings while seemingly making very little progress in resigning Stone, Ceci, Duchene and Karlsson.

The Ottawa Senators have had the quietest summer of all teams in the league, in an off-season where we should be one of the busiest teams. Something is up.

 

[swiftwin]

We are all speculating, but I agree the pindrop silence is odd. Then again, if the team was being sold, I would think there would be leaks by now.

"We are hoping to get a new owner" gives me hope, that honest man could've said "probably not" but didn't in this case.

There have been leaks for a long time. Since last fall. As recently as a few weeks ago an offer was made for the team. Mendez also repored a direct quote from Melnyk: "I havent received any WORTHWHILE offers yet." The fact that he used the word worthwhile means he's open to it.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that there are negotiations going on behind the scenes. Whether Karlsson is on the team or not is going to have a huge impact of the value of the team. I guarantee you that the "leak" of Karlsson being traded earlier this month was a bluff from Melnyk in these negotiations.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Dorion has a busy off-season ahead

It is now July 23rd and Dorion has made a couple of depth signings while seemingly making very little progress in resigning Stone, Ceci, Duchene and Karlsson.

The Ottawa Senators have had the quietest summer of all teams in the league, in an off-season where we should be one of the busiest teams. Something is up.

If we hadn't seen the straight mis-management of the team time and time again recently and at times on seemingly unprecedented levels, I would more strongly agree with you, at this point I pray for a sale or something behind the scenes in my heart, my brain tells me it's simply incompetence.

 

[armani]

There have been leaks for a long time. Since last fall. As recently as a few weeks ago an offer was made for the team. Mendez also repored a direct quote from Melnyk: "I havent received any WORTHWHILE offers yet." The fact that he used the word worthwhile means he's open to it.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that there are negotiations going on behind the scenes. Whether Karlsson is on the team or not is going to have a huge impact of the value of the team. I guarantee you that the "leak" of Karlsson being traded earlier this month was a bluff from Melnyk in these negotiations.

Oh yeah we know Melnyk hasn't received a "worthwhile offer" and Daly confirmed existence of an offer with the caveat that the team "wasn't for sale" (i.e. Melnyk wasn't actively selling). But nothing since then.

I think a lot of the members in the fanbase/media know that a sale is a matter of time, what we don't know is if it will be imminent. It could take months to years before that happens, as Melnyk would be bleeding money in a sunken ship (attendance will be embarassing, the STH drive have been beyond shit).

In case there is strong negotiation going on for the team to be sold, if I am Melnyk I am likely not re-signing anybody cuz I don't want to pay bonus money to players to a team that I won't own in the near future.

Otherwise, maybe there is strong negotiation going on involving player movements and all negotiating members have put a stop to any leak following the crazy shitshow from TDL to Draft to July 1 to somewhere early July when all the talks came to a screeching halt.

 

[armani]

f*** face just hired a Chief Marketing Officer from Barbados, why would he do that if he is trying to sell the team immediately?

 

[swiftwin]

Oh yeah we know Melnyk hasn't received a "worthwhile offer" and Daly confirmed existence of an offer with the caveat that the team "wasn't for sale" (i.e. Melnyk wasn't actively selling). But nothing since then.

I think a lot of the members in the fanbase/media know that a sale is a matter of time, what we don't know is if it will be imminent. It could take months to years before that happens, as Melnyk would be bleeding money in a sunken ship (attendance will be embarassing, the STH drive have been beyond ****).

In case there is strong negotiation going on for the team to be sold, if I am Melnyk I am likely not re-signing anybody cuz I don't want to pay bonus money to players to a team that I won't own in the near future.

Otherwise, maybe there is strong negotiation going on involving player movements and all negotiating members have put a stop to any leak following the crazy ****show from TDL to Draft to July 1 to somewhere early July when all the talks came to a screeching halt.

My guess is that the loan Melnyk got on June 27 was the potential owners giving Melnyk just enough rope to hang himself with. It was reported to be senior term debt, with the potential owner getting first dibs in the event of the team being sold. They are playing hardball with Melnyk. They know he has to sell. Even with the loan, Melnyk probably won't survive to see the new development built. They know it, but Melnyk might not know it. Maybe it's finally dawning on Melnyk with the dismal STH sales, the Stone situation (might be UFA along with Karlsson next summer) appearing out of nowhere. Also, don't underestimate the effect of Anderson's trade request. Even though he's at the end of his career, he's still one of the most recognizable names on the team, and the best goalie we've ever had. There's no way Melnyk can generate enough revenue to survive if we lose Hoffman, Karlsson, Stone, Duchene and Anderson within one calendar year.
Ofcourse unless he doesn't build the new building, which explains his strange "I don't need the new building" quote at the Heritage Classic last season. Once you start to connect all the dots and quotes and strange behaviours, it's incredibly clear that we're in the 11th hour of a team sale. The potential owners know they have Melnyk cornered and are playing hardball with him, pushing him to the very edge. The only card Melnyk has is to threaten to gut the team and ride it out until the building is done.

 

[swiftwin]

**** face just hired a Chief Marketing Officer from Barbados, why would he do that if he is trying to sell the team immediately?

A bluff.

Or maybe he wants to sell, but is prepared to hold on if he doesn't get what he wants?

 

[armani]

A bluff.

Or maybe he wants to sell, but is prepared to hold on if he doesn't get what he wants?

f***face is cheap, he doesn't bluff with money and contracts, even if she is being paid a bit more than Canadian Tire money.

 

[BatherSeason]

To me, the fact that Friedman reported that Karlsson wants to sign with the team, but not with the owner is a huge tell.

The fact that only bloggers have picked up on this is embarrassing. TSN1200 is in full Ottawa Senators boycott mode, while Garrioch is trapped inside Dorion's bunker. This is a story, a story the fanbase needs to hear.

 

[topshelf15]

The fact that only bloggers have picked up on this is embarrassing. TSN1200 is in full Ottawa Senators boycott mode, while Garrioch is trapped inside Dorion's bunker. This is a story, a story the fanbase needs to hear.

There has to be a sale going on ,way too much deflection and misdirection going on here...