The NJ Devils Goaltender Thread

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Bleedred

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I thought CS could only do a 5 game conditioning stint in Binghamton and he had to come back? And that it is not up to Shero and Co.
I think that is all he could do.

My criticism was calling him up and not playing him that game against the Kings, rather than just calling him up. I thought they should have played him that night, but understand why they didn't, as Keith is good against the Kings.
 

Smitty426

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I think that is all he could do.

My criticism was calling him up and not playing him that game against the Kings, rather than just calling him up. I thought they should have played him that night, but understand why they didn't, as Keith is good against the Kings.
Got it.
 
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NJDevs26

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I think it's dumb that Hynes won't say who is playing tomorrow and he's really dumb if he sits Cory while he's on a hot streak.

I thought it was stupid to call Cory back up just to put him on the bench as the backup against the Kings after his last AHL game, which was pretty good. I did understand a bit though, just because Kinkaid has been good against the Kings.

The only rationale to not playing Cory tomorrow would be to not give him too many games while he's still ''Healing''. As long as he's on this hot streak, there's no reason not to play him in what's a non-back to back tomorrow night. Especially since Keith looks like he might be cooked for the season at this point.

The rationale is KK is 3-0 against the Pens this year. And yes eventually Cory was going to get a game off this week, they weren't going to play him 4 out of 7 considering he hasn't had that kind of workload in a while - since the end of 2017.
 

Bleedred

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The rationale is KK is 3-0 against the Pens this year. And yes eventually Cory was going to get a game off this week, they weren't going to play him 4 out of 7 considering he hasn't had that kind of workload in a while - since the end of 2017.
I think they should play Cory anyway. Keith looks miserable since the bye week ended. He’s had two good games since then. One was against the Pens and the other was against Carolina. He looks ready for the offseason.
 

Bleedred

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I have this theory that we played Keith tonight not because his play against the Penguins this year and in his career, but because Cory was getting too hot and Ottawa was coming up on Thursday, which should be a win. Just like when Blackwood was blacklisted after that game that he stole in Montreal.

I'm kind of joking, but I'm kind of not. If we see him again in a non-back to back in the next week (barring Cory either getting injured or being destroyed for a game or two), then that will pretty much be confirmation.
 
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Bleedred

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Man Hynes really did just drop the knife on Keith in the post-game.

He definitely subscribed to Bleed’s soft goal list.
Honestly, I was just a little bit sympathetic to the ''The defense makes Kinkaid look worse'' theory and the ''Expected save percentage on this team is very low'' argument, as the percentage of goals he had allowed that I counted stoppable was high, but still a bit low for a goalie that was in the .890's% for a save percentage. That all evened itself out in his last 3 starts. He's allowed 16 goals in his last 3 starts and I've counted 9 that were stoppable, which has catapulted him into the league lead and after tonight's game particularly, he's safely in the league lead for likely the next few nights or maybe for the rest of the week, as he's now 3 ahead of second place and 4 ahead of third. His buddy Dubnyk from Friday night is second, who has also skyrocketed to the top in his last 3 starts.

Now I still have a couple guys who have allowed a higher percentage. Talbot, Smith and Koskinen being 3, as well as quite a few guys that haven't played nearly as many games like Cory, Calvin Pickard and a few others. But due to number of games played and total goals allowed, his count is much higher.
 
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indfin

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I think of the Devils goaltending situation this way:

Using whatever metrics you use to evaluate goaltenders within a game (sv%, sv% on "high quality" chances (or low- or mid-quality chances, the "eye test" (which would involve a more subjective judgement of "great saves" and "bad goals", etc).

In light of this, how often have the Devils had the better goaltender (in that game)? the worse goaltender?

Recognizing that there are likely a significant # of games when the difference is not significant, how many points might the Devils have left on the table simply due receiving a weaker goaltender performance in a given game?

Understanding that this is partially a reflection of the rest of the team (a team like TB is more likely to be able to get points even if their goaltending is not as good on any particular night) ... this seems like an analysis best suited for Bleed? Although some of you who are better with advanced stats than I may be able to come up with an answer as well
 

My3Sons

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I think of the Devils goaltending situation this way:

Using whatever metrics you use to evaluate goaltenders within a game (sv%, sv% on "high quality" chances (or low- or mid-quality chances, the "eye test" (which would involve a more subjective judgement of "great saves" and "bad goals", etc).

In light of this, how often have the Devils had the better goaltender (in that game)? the worse goaltender?

Recognizing that there are likely a significant # of games when the difference is not significant, how many points might the Devils have left on the table simply due receiving a weaker goaltender performance in a given game?

Understanding that this is partially a reflection of the rest of the team (a team like TB is more likely to be able to get points even if their goaltending is not as good on any particular night) ... this seems like an analysis best suited for Bleed? Although some of you who are better with advanced stats than I may be able to come up with an answer as well


There have been a number of games this season where NJ goalies let in early deflating goals and the team crashed right away and the other goalie never had to make any crucial saves as a result. Last night, despite the softy, Murray made several really good stops, including that second save on MarJo, which all else being equal, were the difference in the game. Of course, he also had a bit of luck with Nico hitting the post, and the PIT goal that knuckled by KK could have gone over the net if the physics were the slightest bit different.
 
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Bleedred

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I think of the Devils goaltending situation this way:

Using whatever metrics you use to evaluate goaltenders within a game (sv%, sv% on "high quality" chances (or low- or mid-quality chances, the "eye test" (which would involve a more subjective judgement of "great saves" and "bad goals", etc).

In light of this, how often have the Devils had the better goaltender (in that game)? the worse goaltender?

Recognizing that there are likely a significant # of games when the difference is not significant, how many points might the Devils have left on the table simply due receiving a weaker goaltender performance in a given game?

Understanding that this is partially a reflection of the rest of the team (a team like TB is more likely to be able to get points even if their goaltending is not as good on any particular night) ... this seems like an analysis best suited for Bleed? Although some of you who are better with advanced stats than I may be able to come up with an answer as well
Since Hall has been injured and ESPECIALLY since we've had the likes of Rooney (IDGAF what anybody says, this is a BAD player at the NHL level, just like Rod Pelley), Gabriel and Gryba and other BAD call ups in the lineup on the regular, goaltending probably isn't gonna make too much of a difference. Not enough to keep us in the playoff race.

But as of the time Hall got injured, we were middle of the league in goal scoring and we had a pretty decent lineup, one that shouldn't have already been blasted far out of the playoff race by that point, but the goaltending was an embarrassment.

Most of this stemmed from the fact that until around December 18th, we only had one goaltender on the team giving us a decent start sometimes. Cory hadn't played a good game all year, until he came back recently. And when you see Keith Kinkaid as #1 on your team's goalie depth chart, that just screams that goaltending is a huge sore spot. When I look at every team around the league and what they have in goal, Keith Kinkaid would be the #31 goalie when sizing him up against the best goalie on every team in the league. Schneider (even assuming he somewhat bounces back) wouldn't be much higher than that either. We can say it's the defense, but when Kinkaid is the best goalie on your team, you're in a lot of trouble. You can get by with it for one year (see last season), but you're pushing your luck with it more than that. Imagine Scott Clemmensen following up 08-09 by doing it again in 09-10? I don't think he would have.

We've lost quite a few games because of goaltending this year. First one that comes to mind is the Nashville game in the third week of the season. Kinkaid allowed 3 poor goals, including the OT winner and a very weak shot he whiffed on in the 1st period. Next game where goaltending cost us was probably the Detroit game, which was Cory's first start. He allowed 3 goals, 2 were very stoppable and we lose the game by one goal. That's at least 2-3 points gone right there. Then Kinkaid had some good games, but also some bad games throughout November, since he was the only goalie we could start and hope for a quality start from.

Last night was a prime example of goaltending costing us the game. It's not the blowout games like St. Louis. It almost cost us against Minnesota, but we came back. It also almost cost us in December when Cory put us down 3-0 against Vegas and was yanked, and we came back to win. This horrendous goaltending also makes it harder to evaluate players and causes players to look a lot worse than they really are or to have more minuses and goals against than they probably deserve and would on teams with competent goaltending. Last night was just one example of goaltending costing us games, but at this stage in the season, we're long out of it, so it doesn't matter anymore. It hurt us the most in November and December.
 

Bleedred

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I think of the Devils goaltending situation this way:

Using whatever metrics you use to evaluate goaltenders within a game (sv%, sv% on "high quality" chances (or low- or mid-quality chances, the "eye test" (which would involve a more subjective judgement of "great saves" and "bad goals", etc).

In light of this, how often have the Devils had the better goaltender (in that game)? the worse goaltender?

Recognizing that there are likely a significant # of games when the difference is not significant, how many points might the Devils have left on the table simply due receiving a weaker goaltender performance in a given game?

Understanding that this is partially a reflection of the rest of the team (a team like TB is more likely to be able to get points even if their goaltending is not as good on any particular night) ... this seems like an analysis best suited for Bleed? Although some of you who are better with advanced stats than I may be able to come up with an answer as well
And by the way, you're right. A team like TB and San Jose can afford this kind of goaltending and still be alright. Calgary is another. That's why you got BUMS like Louis Domingue who is currently on a Lightning franchise record run in consecutive wins or Martin Jones being second or third in the league in wins, despite not being much better than Kinkaid this year and Mike Smith with a winning record, despite horrendous play.
 

Bleedred

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Still think it's a progression to the mean market correction. Cory isn't this good, but he's also not as bad as his last 25 games before this either. He's somewhere in between, which is where he'll likely finish in save percentage for this season at this rate. Somewhere around where he finished the last two years.

Still think he's probably anywhere from a .903%-.908% goalie. Which means he can still play in the NHL for now, but we need a better starter than that and absolutely a better option than Kinkaid or one of the 5 Kinkaid-like goalies that will be available next year.
 

Bleedred

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Going back to this question, with how well Schneider has been as of late, do you think we see Blackwood again this year?
Probably not.

I'm okay with it now. I think we should see as much of Schneider as we can, just to see if he's good enough to play in the NHL next year. I wouldn't hate it if Kinkaid ended up outta here and Blackwood and Schneider split time. Doubtful that happens though, because who the f*** wants Kinkaid?

I am starting to come around to not buying out Schneider after this year and going just year by year and reevaluating.

I also am starting to think a tandem of Blackwood and Schneider might also be too much of a question mark if we're to ice a team with playoff aspirations next year. Blackwood is too unproven and his AHL play has just been pretty average, but his NHL stint was the best goaltending we've seen up here all year.

I do think Shero needs to go for a guy that can either start over Schneider or play half the games next year, that's better than Kinkaid. Kind of like how the Bruins went out and got Halak to battle with Rask this year. And Rask hasn't even been as poor as Schneider the last several years. We need something like that here.

I just hope it isn't Thomas Greiss, who might be poor again next year. It definitely can't be Niemi, he's finished. The Schneidkaid isn't working anymore, so Kinkaid is out. Ryan Miller is too old and will probably be injured before long and Cory will play all the games then, and Miller likely won't post good numbers as anything more than a sparsely used backup. Chad Johnson is finished. Lehner would be awesome, but the Islanders are probably re-signing him. Domingue is no better than Kinkaid and his stupid win streak is a product of Tampa being the best team in the league and being able to outscore anybody. Halak is probably overachieving this year. Talbot has been worse than Kinkaid the last two years, Nilsson is trash (As we saw again tonight), there should be somebody. Elliott is okay, but can't be a starter or 1b on this team.

Jack Campbell sounds and looks real good, but he's also a question mark as he's only been in the NHL one full year. Stay away from Jarry, who probably isn't better than Blackwood and isn't worth the assets.
 

Bleedred

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Depends if Kinkaid is traded or not. If Keith is still here then no we won’t see Blackwood again barring injuries.

We almost certainly will see him next year.
Yeah, I think the same thing. If Keith is traded, he gets called up. If Keith isn't traded or injured, he probably won't be. It is possible they could start him in the finale or the last week of the season though. We did that with Santini, Wood and Zacha for the 15-16 finale, although that was the first NHL game for all of them, whereas he's played a bunch of them already. We also called up guys like Henrique to play in the season finale in the few Lou years that we missed the playoffs.

I don't think Keith is getting traded, but I'd never completely rule it out.

Priority should be getting a look at Cory. I would say Keith is probably up there with Stafford as far as regulars go, for being the player that doesn't really need any additional looks, as his ticket is already punched out of town for next year and he won't bring back anything of value at the deadline like Lovejoy or Johansson, who almost assuredly done here, even if they are still on the team by Saturday afternoon.
 

NJDevs26

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If he keeps it up over the final twenty games, great. At least it'll prove he can still play if healthy although that's never a given. The next challenge will be if he can actually do this when the games matter but we won't find that out till next year.
 

Bleedred

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If he keeps it up over the final twenty games, great. At least it'll prove he can still play if healthy although that's never a given. The next challenge will be if he can actually do this when the games matter but we won't find that out till next year.
That's why I think we still need someone reliable to pair with him next year. Just going by his last 2 years and assuming he plays well enough to end this season to match his level of play from the last two years, it's still too much of a liability for us to go into next season with him as the best goalie on the roster.
 
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