Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by h2, Jan 24, 2005.
Is there a way the sides can compromise?
If theyre open minded then yes they can compromise. If they continue to act like 5 year olds and want it their way or the high way then this season is done.
I can't see the reason for a meeting this week other than to salvage this season. I believe that both sides are more desperate to start this season than they are letting on. For this reason only, I tend to disregard all the rhetoric regarding the season being over that we have heard from many players and a few owners. If this alleged proposal by the NHL contains some significant concessions by the league on issues other than cost certainty along with slight concessions on the cost certainty issue, then I can see a deal done before the weekend. If the NHLPA rejects an offer of this kind and the season is cancelled, it only adds more credibility to the NHL's inevitable appeal for an impasse, which could only hurt the players more. I believe that if an offer of this nature is proposed, the players will have no choice but to accept it and for both sides to word it in the press that both sides won in this lockout so both can "save face" (although the fans are, unfortunately, the losers in all of this, as if they actually care).
The NHL knows that an impasse is one of the obstacles down the road. If the players don't break first that's what it's going to come to, and in order have any chance of winning they need to have a complete CBA proposed to the union, something they have't done yet. So, that's probably what we are going to see this week. It's more positioning for a possible impasse and PR than anything else.
I agree. However, I feel that the league's offer needs to show a decent amount of concession on their part in order for the appeal for impasse to go more smoothly. A decent amount of concession does not mean pulling the plug on the salary cap idea, by any means. But if they raise the threshold of the cap a little and then make some concessions on the other issues (arbitration, UFA minimum age, etc), they will back the NHLPA into a corner in which they have to accept or the possibility of impasse granted to the owners becomes much greater.
If the owners' proposal shows very little concession on their part, it will only make it harder for impasse to be declared by the respective labor councils.
Does anyone worry that the owners are so prepared to lose the season already, they will stick to an offer they know is just unreasonable enough that the players will not concede? Doing this for the purpose of making a point, making them suffer even longer so they will come back next season and be willing to accept just about anything?
no- see the impasse discussion above. the league must make some type of competitive offer, otherwise they'll lose footing down the road when it comes to sorting out the legal action w/regards to an impasse
Interesting hypothesis. I wouldn't put it past the owners, due to the bad blood between both sides. However, if both sides are that close and the season can be saved, I can't see the owners willing to give up the playoff revenues for this season in order to make that point to the players. They would be cutting off their nose to spite their face, in my opinion. Then again, the owners haven't shown much intelligence in hockey matters for the last 10 years. What makes me think that they're going to start now?!
yup ... Mikey will have to take a collection to feed his beloved dog
I believe this was the league's intent/hope all along.
Maybe in future discussions, but not now. The league is willing to bail on the season if the players don't agree to a cap, but hopes the PA will blink. I hope I'm wrong.
Gee, what a shock that meetings are again scheduled for this week between the two sides. And to think it was only late last week after talks broke off where some of the pessimists here in the crowd were taking Lindens he was supposedly "insulted" statement, Damphouse saying "its over" and that "no meetings are now scheduled"...yada yada yada as verbatum as if they were telling the truth. It would have seemed "impossible" for both sides to have come to a conclusion so quickly after last week that they would be meeting if they really were telling the truth...right?
If you think about it, none of the sides have told us the truth from the get go, since the beginning of this whole boring and disconcerting labor process, as its not in the best interests for any of the sides to let us know truly what is going on.
I mean most of you folks realize who are reading this thread, that these new meetings that are scheduled isn't a suprise. And that they were already planned last week and that an agreement is right around the corner...right? Wouldn't suprise me one bit if both sides "staged" all of the BS rhetoric to keep the media and public off-guard so as to not intefere with the actual agreements they have reached. I mean would is suprise anyone here that other than the cap question and how much the revenues will be split, if all the other areas have been agreed upon...eh?
How can all of this be possible the neysayers ask? Pretty simple folks. These are all normal regular labor negotiation ploys and we are at 11:45 PM, fifteen minutes before midnight, with that being the witching hour when most deals of this magnitude are invariably struck.
And with billions of dollars at stake, these guys may be stubborn fools but dumb and stupid they are not as they see like us "average Joes" see and what's at stake. And both sides are simply posturing and want more of the piece of pie staring at them. Its just a question of how much each side gets and that's what will be occuring this week during these meetings I'd bet on that. I'd also bet a pretty nice chunk of change as well that an official agreement will be announced by end of week as well...we'll see but I'm extremly confident this is all going to come to a happy ending for all of us fans and we'll be seeing some hockey played shortly.
the nhl has asked for a salary cap in the last 3 cba negotiations and in the last two they caved in. when you say comprimise do you mean the owners should give in the cap again or do you mean they should comprimise on other things.
when you say comprimise. which side should comprimise on the cap issue?
should the owners comprimise on their demand for a cap or should the players comprimise on their refusal to talk about any sort of a cap at all?
they can't both comprimise on that issue. you either have a cap or you dont. thats why neither side is going to comprimise.
Alot of guys in the media have been saying for a while that the players need to realize that they "lost" and a cap is coming therefore they need to negotiate the best deal possible now so that they don't end up with less later.
The supposed 3 yr luxury tax followed by a hard cap is a good example of how the owners should recognize the same advise that the players are getting.
If this proposal is legit then the owners have their cap, however getting picky about the cap being implimented right now vs in 2 1/2 yeras may result in the players trying to take it back off the table if this thing carries on for another year when ego's and stubborness becomes the driving force behind all decisions. Take it now and in a short two and half years they get what they feel they need. Once it is there it likely will never be removed....
As far as the league and the PA meeting this week at an undisclosed place and an undisclosed time, it better be today because if there is any sliver of hope for a season this year, I can't see how they can put it off another minute....even if they agree to a frame work (big big IF) that just sets the real scrambling in motion to actually complete a deal and the teams to assemble their rosters....I just can't see how it can be done in time
They don't call if 11th hour negotiations for nothing. My guess is the league's proposal will be accepted by the union with some minor tweaks that will be ironed out before the weekend.
Both sides have to realize that if they become the first sport that goes without a season due to a labor negotiation fauxpaux, the sport will suffer like no other has. If they lose the season, the league will be done.
I agree. There have been more signs in the past week that show an agreement is iminent than ever before.
THey said they would be meeting since last week yet no day shave been batted around. I get the feeling that they could even be meeting as we speak figureing it out.
I've said the samething since the beginning, I agree with you 100%, funny how all the players come out and say the season's over, we'll never accept a cap, we won't accept a cap even at 200million$$$, yet your still willing to meet again fully knowing that the NHL's next proposal will also include a cap...this is all to convinient for me...
good post Max
Totally agree with all of this. Just look at Ziggy Stardust's excellent thread detailing the rhetoric and quotes from '92/'94 for prescedent.
This will get done.
Doesn't worry me a bit. Why should it? Maybe now, after the Linden gambit, the Goodenow camp will get it through their heads that the NHL isn't going to cave. The NHL caving has been what the NHLPA has been counting on, refusing to believe that the owners wouldn't break ranks as zero hour approached. Don't be surprised if it comes out later that Goodenow put Linden up to last weeks ploy to test ownerships resolve. The trouble with calling someone's bluff, of course, is that they might not be bluffing. The union now might be smelling death, because if the season gets cancelled, that's exactly what it is. By accepting a cap, the union will lose half its power, but by cancelling a season it will lose all it's power. Because a cap will then be put in place, and if a cap is going to happen anyway, fans will blame the union for not seeing the writing on the wall and saving the season. It's a lose/lose for the union, and that should be sinking in, right about now.
I wonder how long its gonna take until the media reveals the place of the meeting and times.
THe NHL is probablly gonna up the revenue sharing, bring down UFA, put in writting so thoose players can actually see it GAURNTEED CONTRACTS, and possibly move to a soft cap and hard cap at a bigger amount possibly $45 million.
Ya 417...thanks. And isn't it also all too convienvient that in the past week, all of a sudden like as if a lightening bolt hit the two sides and changed the way they speak and unlike in their past rhetoric, it was the OWNERS side this time, not the players, who have seemingly become much more hopefull, optimistic and enthusiastic about how the negotiations are going. All one has to do is see the "staged" BS after the meeting talks that Daley and Linden gave, in which Daly comes across as the guy who somehow saw the forest thru the trees and was pretty optimistic from his comments. Yet Linden, who was looking like Mr.Hero for supposedly listening to his constituents, was suddenly "insulted" out of the blue on Friday and the reports were that he and Damphousse told the rest of the executive committee that they best get ready for a looooooooong lockout and really looked like the hard liners rather than the owners....go friggin figure....
It makes no sense at all unless of course one believes, like I do, that the two sides are in actuality very close to striking a deal and these are simply negotiation machinations at play and they are just trying to buy a little more time before they come clean with the public that an agreement has been reached.
I'm sorry but there is simply too much money at stake for both sides for a deal not to be reached....I will not and can not be convinced of this happenstance until I see a drop dead date set and the players foolishly standing pat. I don't believe it will ever come to that though...
Good points you make Hockey guy. I mean we've discussed and read this exact point infinitum on all the posts on this Business side of hockey by hundreds of posters and we've read this same thing from media types as well. Is anyone going to convince us fans that the players and their leadership specifically don't see this same exact point that not playing this year worsens their position a hundred fold!! Probably not is the answer and thus my thinking that the players and Goodenow have called the owners bluff....they lost the hand and thus its time to strike a deal which make no mistake, will happen....just a question of when!.
You echo my thoughts on this situations to a tee, I feel exactly the same way...the NHLPA's goal in all of this was to see if the owners would fold, just like 1994, and really, who could blame them for trying, my problem with the NHLPA, is that unlike 1994, the game of hockey is in bigger trouble financially, they should know this, but instead chose to take them on in a stalemate, which they will ultimately lose, in which case I ask, "What was it all for?" to lose out on 1/2 a season salary which you will never see, if the PA really didin't want to collect their paychecks, I could of sent them my mailing address, and accepted it on their behalf with pleasure
You know you bring up a good point and something I was thinking about but that I haven't read discussed all to much. I'll use recent baseball negotiations as an example. In the past few strikes in baseball, the PA was able to use as a negotiating tool the ability to get back some of the salary that was lost by striking...not all of it but some of it.
Now sure the baseball PA is much more powerful than the NHL PA is but I wouldn't be shocked, and this is my point, if one of the negotiation tactics used by the league in order to "help" the PA see things there way and accept the inevitable cap, will be to offer as an incentive to the players, the willingness on their part to pay 1/2 of the 1/2 season season salary already lost. I know I read baseball did that and so it wouldn't shock me that the players would go for this as it could mean quite a bit of cashish for the players who have lost from what I've read 500 or so million dollars in salaries. So, even with a rollback, lets say they end up agreeing on an average of 20% from what the players offered, that would still mean a decent incentive to "help" the players make up a bit of the money they've already lost......just a thought
It's not a crazy thought either, but I doubt it could ever happened with the NHLPA, though i could be wrong, I do think that in the NHL's new offer, there will be something in there that jumps out, something that will make the players say something like "Despite our position on the cap, the owners offered a ___that we just couldn't refuse"
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