The NHL has a BIG problem (Cap Circumvention via LTIR)

Ciao

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Jul 15, 2010
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This is silly.

So GM's just need to be more "creative" in convincing their banged-up star players to milk an injury until playoffs come?

This has nothing to do with being creative. Most teams aren't rich enough to survive without a Kucherov for ~50 plus games and still comfortably make the playoffs. And I would think most star players aren't down with sitting out for the playoffs to help their team's salary cap situation. Kucherov just won a stanley cup and has played a ton of hockey, so he probably doesnt mind.

It's a rich team (in terms of their talent and depth) taking advantage of a nuanced situation.
Kucherov is injured.

That's why he is not playing.
 
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ItWasJustified

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Jan 1, 2015
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I think the point is, if you then got out of the hospital and were fit as a fiddle, but your boss said “stay home until June because while your were sick we hired a bunch of guys to replace you and now we don’t have anywhere to put you as they are all using your office. But don’t worry, once June gets here we can find room for all of you”. Then you would be paid to stay at home.
And that allegory is the comparison to who in the hockey world?
 

Mr Positive

Cap Crunch Incoming
Nov 20, 2013
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Kucherov is injured.

That's why he is not playing.
Its also from an elective surgery, one that he is likely already better from.

But doesn't the insurance pay for at least part of an injured players salary, sometimes all? If the cap is there mostly to keep small markets competitive, is this "loophole" much of a concern? If they can exploit it too, maybe it's not a big deal to anyone
 
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Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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But doesn't the insurance pay for at least part of an injured players salary, sometimes all?
No. It only pays if
-- the injured player was selected to be insured,
-- the insurer accepted the player to be insured (not all of them are - and, not all of them necessarily can be depending on the player's contract and injury history),
-- the injury is from an allowable (or non-excluded) injury, and
-- the player has missed some required amount of time (which can vary by player and/or injury nature)

It is never a default "oh, the player is injured? No big deal, insurance kicks in" thing.
 

LeafFan66

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Apr 14, 2021
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Why not simply force teams to only dress enough players to reach the cap? Your game playing roster cannot exceed the cap (based on full salary for the year in question).
Would not be complete fix but at least no team would have a playing roster that is miles over the cap.
 

Bevans

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Apr 15, 2016
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If you make a team reserve cap space for an injured player, in case he returns to playoffs (Kane, Kucherov etc), you are removing up to 12%+ of the salary cap (JOBS) for that team.

What player is going to agree to potentially remove 12%+ of their job opportunity on a given team?

This specific situation has happened a small handful of times in 15 years. Removing cap space for the year would risk reducing jobs annually, just in case this happens again.

This solution is an extraordinary reaction to a minor and rare tail risk to the system.

You don't destroy jobs just because a guy needs hip surgery or breaks his collar bone.
 

Blackjack

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13 pages of "I don't understand collective bargaining".

Almost every suggestion forwarded would take cap away from teams, which takes jobs away from players.

13 pages of asking NHLers to play Russian Roulette with a loaded pistol, all so that armchair fans can say the word "fair" a bunch.

1 post of "I don't understand that no matter how the cap is structured, the number of NHL player jobs will stay the same, and the players will get 50% of revenue"

I want to uncontrollably love this post.

I'm not surprised
 

Bevans

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1 post of "I don't understand that no matter how the cap is structured, the number of NHL player jobs will stay the same, and the players will get 50% of revenue"



I'm not surprised

Incorrect. You are looking from the collective, not the individual voter.

If salary space has to be reserved then new players cannot be called up or signed, and existing players may not be able to sign for as much on future contracts.

Go tell ross Colton that he's better off being in the AHL because "50% of revenue!"
 
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Blackjack

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2. The Rangers - and Leafs and all the other high-revenue teams - could still "pour money into player salaries beyond their fair portion" because people have a misguided notion of what's fair. Life isn't fair.

This is about the shittiest possible way to comport yourself in a discussion. Nobody here has a seat on the BoG, nobody here has any power to change anything in the CBA. We're just fans talking about what we like or don't like about the salary cap rules and the competitive environment it creates, but for some reason you need to make snotty, obnoxious comments like this.
 

Blackjack

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Incorrect. You are looking from the collective, not the individual voter.

If salary space has to be reserved then new players cannot be called up or signed, and existing players may not be able to sign for as much on future contracts.

Go tell ross Colton that he's better off being in the AHL because "50% of revenue!"

I have no idea what the situation is with Ross Colton, but I do know that roster sizes haven't changed, and players get the same share of revenue. Any kind cap arrangement will create winners and losers among individual players.
 

Ted Hoffman

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Dec 15, 2002
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Incorrect. You are looking from the collective, not the individual voter.

If salary space has to be reserved then new players cannot be called up or signed, and existing players may not be able to sign for as much on future contracts.

Go tell ross Colton that he's better off being in the AHL because "50% of revenue!"
But ... everything is win-win for the players! (As long as we ignore increased escrow, reduced opportunities for lower-paid players, reduced spending on existing players due to ill-conceived cap penalties, and so on) They can't possibly lose!
 
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Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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This is about the shittiest possible way to comport yourself in a discussion. Nobody here has a seat on the BoG, nobody here has any power to change anything in the CBA. We're just fans talking about what we like or don't like about the salary cap rules and the competitive environment it creates, but for some reason you need to make snotty, obnoxious comments like this.
You know how to use the ignore function here, right? Maybe you should try it if you don't like what I have to say. I'm not configuring my replies to satisfy someone's idea of what the world should be, when we're dealing with how the world really is.
 

sxvnert

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Nov 23, 2015
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Its been a problem since Kane did it years ago. All of a sudden now its a problem.
 

Ciao

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Jul 15, 2010
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Its also from an elective surgery, one that he is likely already better from.

But doesn't the insurance pay for at least part of an injured players salary, sometimes all? If the cap is there mostly to keep small markets competitive, is this "loophole" much of a concern? If they can exploit it too, maybe it's not a big deal to anyone
Kucherov's contract is probably insured -- because it's a high-value contract -- but not all player contracts are insured.

LTIR is very important to players because without it they might be unduly pressured to come back and play through injuries, with potential long-term damage to their overall health. Injured players should not be forced to play, and teams should not be penalized for not playing injured players.

LTIR is not a loophole at all. It's injury protection for the good of the player and the team.

BTW -- the "elective" part of surgery is irrelevant. Players don't get surgery for the fun of it. It's a health-related procedure recommended and performed by a physician. Whether it's done earlier or later, or not at all, is the player's decision.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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Kucherov's contract is probably insured -- because it's a high-value contract -- but not all player contracts are insured.
I would bet since it's a high-value contract, it's not fully insured. And/or, there's a pretty notable deductible like 30-40 games missed for coverage to kick in. Otherwise I agree with your post.
 
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Blackjack

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LTIR is very important to players because without it they might be unduly pressured to come back and play through injuries, with potential long-term damage to their overall health. Injured players should not be forced to play, and teams should not be penalized for not playing injured players.

By that logic players would be pressured to return in the playoffs, when their LTIR status is no longer an advantage to the team. In fact, it also wouldn't help with the pressure for ELC players, whose contracts are cheap and therefore don't provide much LTIR relief, or players of teams that are not capped it. It would only help relieve pressure for a narrow band of athletes.

If this pressure really is a problem, the way to address it is directly in the CBA, not through some bizarre contract exception that causes more problems than it solves.
 

edog37

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Jan 21, 2007
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Simply put, Cap Circumvention via LTIR

Teams like Tampa Bay and Toronto are using LTIR to bolster their rosters for the playoffs.

Kucherov being out the entire season, giving the Lightning $10.5M in extra cap relief throughout the season. But as soon as the playoffs come around, he can be activated off LTIR without a hiccup and Tampa will be playing in the playoffs with a roster that could have a cap hit north of $95M.

Toronto acquired Riley Nash from Columbus and it won’t count for a cent on their cap since he’s on LTIR and won’t be activated until the playoffs where there is no salary cap.

The Salary cap was created to give smaller market teams a fighting chance against the larger spending, big markets of the NHL. But with this LTIR loophole, it allows teams like Toronto and Tampa Bay extra cap space since in the playoffs, there is no salary cap.


There is a simple solution to this problem, have a salary cap in the playoffs. it would completely negate this loophole.

Sounds like a solution in search of a problem. The players get paid for the playoffs by a money pool set up by the NHL & NHLPA & depends on how far a team advances. So effectively there is no way to calculate the cap on a daily basis like they do in the regular season. Because of that, there is no way to enforce cap compliance thus rendering the point moot.

How Much Do Players Get Paid in the Playoffs? (thehockeywriters.com)
 

Blackjack

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Sounds like a solution in search of a problem. The players get paid for the playoffs by a money pool set up by the NHL & NHLPA & depends on how far a team advances. So effectively there is no way to calculate the cap on a daily basis like they do in the regular season. Because of that, there is no way to enforce cap compliance thus rendering the point moot.

How Much Do Players Get Paid in the Playoffs? (thehockeywriters.com)

I would scrap the daily cap calculations and redefine it so that that aggregate AAV of a team's contracts must be below the cap for the entire regular season as well as the playoffs. This would also get rid of "saving cap space" for deadline rentals.
 

Ciao

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Jul 15, 2010
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By that logic players would be pressured to return in the playoffs, when their LTIR status is no longer an advantage to the team. In fact, it also wouldn't help with the pressure for ELC players, whose contracts are cheap and therefore don't provide much LTIR relief, or players of teams that are not capped it. It would only help relieve pressure for a narrow band of athletes.

If this pressure really is a problem, the way to address it is directly in the CBA, not through some bizarre contract exception that causes more problems than it solves.
I don't understand what you mean.

Are you suggesting that LTIR is a "bizarre contract exception?" If so, I would disagree because its not at all "bizarre", nor is it a contract exception.

The player contract is fully respected and remains in place. The only exception is to the salary cap, which does not apply while the player is injured and unable to play. That is not at all bizarre.
 

therealkoho

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Jul 10, 2009
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Simply put, Cap Circumvention via LTIR

Teams like Tampa Bay and Toronto are using LTIR to bolster their rosters for the playoffs.

Kucherov being out the entire season, giving the Lightning $10.5M in extra cap relief throughout the season. But as soon as the playoffs come around, he can be activated off LTIR without a hiccup and Tampa will be playing in the playoffs with a roster that could have a cap hit north of $95M.

Toronto acquired Riley Nash from Columbus and it won’t count for a cent on their cap since he’s on LTIR and won’t be activated until the playoffs where there is no salary cap.

The Salary cap was created to give smaller market teams a fighting chance against the larger spending, big markets of the NHL. But with this LTIR loophole, it allows teams like Toronto and Tampa Bay extra cap space since in the playoffs, there is no salary cap.


There is a simple solution to this problem, have a salary cap in the playoffs. it would completely negate this loophole.


don't see it as a problem when it's available to all member clubs

What I do see as a problem, is the way the NHL directs their officiating, in what to call, what never gets called, who tends to get called all those things that add up to game management. I couldn't care less about "parity." If a team is really talented and well coached, it has great goaltending and is clearly a superior team, there is no justification to help the opponent "stay in the game." This is what athletics are about, the superior athlete by all measures should win is all things are equal. Watching Gretzky work his magic, or Howe, Lindros and the like bulling their way through defences was great to watch, it inspired me and many others to become better as a player. I never minded watching the late 70's Canadiens just whipping an opponent, well maybe not my Leafs but I digress. When a team like those Montreal teams or those Islanders and Oiler teams have that level of talent, and a compete level to match. The league at least imo is an idiot, if they try and stifle it through what can only be called subjective officiating. Whose feelings are they trying to spare with this practice? What is so special about parity especially a parity that shouldn't be.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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The only exception is to the salary cap, which does not apply while the player is injured and unable to play.
The salary cap still applies while the player is injured. He continues to count against the cap.

His replacement(s) "do not count" up to the amount of the injured player's cap hit, depending on how much (little) cap space the team had at the time it involved LTIR.
 
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Ciao

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Jul 15, 2010
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The salary cap still applies while the player is injured. He continues to count against the cap.

His replacement(s) "do not count" up to the amount of the injured player's cap hit, depending on how much (little) cap space the team had at the time it involved LTIR.
Yes, I agree.

And with that, LTIR is still not "some bizarre contract exception."
 

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