The NCAA/College Effect

[bluesfan94]

Why WHL only? How about OHL instead?

How about instead you finally address what I initially posted. The increasing numbers of Americans choosing CHL over NCAA, especially elite players. That would seem to mark the CHL as the better route IMO. The increasing numbers of players dropping college after being drafted and moving instead to the CHL.

Because there's 59 teams in the CHL and I'm only at team 31. It takes a while to compile data.

I'm trying to. I'm waiting for the data to be finished. Like I said, the only player I had heard of that had dropped a college commitment was William Wrenn. I found another; goalie John Gibson, who decommitted from Michigan to sign with Kitchener. Another - Jarred Tinordi, who eschewed Notre Dame for London. His teammate Jared Knight also left America, but didn't seem to have a scholarship offer. Judging by the Official 2013 NHL Entry Draft Thread that is either above or below this one, Taylor Crunk is a USA-born player who is a serious prospect for the draft, as is goaltender Brandon Burke. Now, I'm going to continue gathering the data to see the percentage of Americans who are in the CHL.

Stefan Noesen and JT Miller, both drafted Americans, currently play for Plymouth, along with 7 other, less remarkable Americans. Noesen, from Texas, had played with the Compuware U16 team, and has been in the OHL since he was 16. JT Miller, on the other hand, turned down a scholarship from UND to play for Plymouth.

Chicago prospect Brandon Saad did not have any/did not accept any scholarship offers as far as I could tell.

Jack Campbell also turned down Michigan. His teammate Kenny Ryan left Boston College to join the Windsor Spitfires, a team in which Americans make up half of the roster.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

None of that had anything to do with the post you replied to. Nice non sequitur.

Perhaps you could now post the statistics relating to the increasing numbers of American players moving into the CHL? Address the increasing numbers of players dropping college commitments and going to the CHL instead after they were drafted?

28.5%? Most interesting would be a comparison to the the number of CHL players that played at least one game in the NHL during the same period. Thanks in advance.

PS: Here is a link to the Hockey Hall of Fame.
http://www.hhof.com/
How many of its members are grads of Canadian junior hockey versus NCAA? Just wondering.

Your continued (and long-standing) douchery obscures a legit point: More and more American kids are playing CHL hockey. The CHL is better for fast-tracking to the NHL, and more Americans fit that bill. That doesn't mean less Americans are playing NCAA hockey though, just that more Americans are playing hockey and that more Americans have aspirations for NHL stardom.

 

[bluesfan94]

I finished the OHL; and from a total of 501 players, 71 were Americans. Thus far, combining the OHL and WHL, 106 of 1070 players are Americans.

 

[bigd]

There is no doubt that the CHL is the faster way to the NHL for players that are legit NHL prospects but what about the thousands that aren't legit NHL prospects? They all end up in the same place, the ECHL or the AHL. At least the NCAA players don't have to go back to school at 28 years old. The bluechippers are going to make it no matter which path they take. For the NCAA players it just might take a year or two longer.

 

[bigd]

I finished the OHL; and from a total of 501 players, 71 were Americans. Thus far, combining the OHL and WHL, 106 of 1070 players are Americans.

You won't find many in the Q. The Northeast is a College hockey hotbed.

 

[bluesfan94]

You won't find many in the Q. The Northeast is a College hockey hotbed.

Oh I know. But it's not for me.


@Gump Hasek: Do you want me to include Couturier in the list of American players in the CHL?

 

[bluesfan94]

And I've gathered all the data.
WHL: 35/569 = 6.15%
OHL: 71/501 = 14.17%
QMJHL: 8/407 = 1.97%
CHL: 114/1477 = 7.72%

What else would you like me to find Gump?

 

[Joe Hallenback]

You do know that Minnesota which is by far the largest hockey area in the WHL territory sends almost no one to the WHL? There are more kids from California in the WHL then there is from Minnesota


You also have to understand that for American kids the lure of everything outside of hockey that a University has to offer is very tempting. It is the whole experience that is part of the package. We do not have the same view of College as a leaving home for the first time experience in Canada. Most kids live at home and go to local schools.

 

[bluesfan94]

You do know that Minnesota which is by far the largest hockey area in the WHL territory sends almost no one to the WHL? There are more kids from California in the WHL then there is from Minnesota


You also have to understand that for American kids the lure of everything outside of hockey that a University has to offer is very tempting. It is the whole experience that is part of the package. We do not have the same view of College as a leaving home for the first time experience in Canada. Most kids live at home and go to local schools.

Really? Cause here almost no one lives at home, even if they attend a local school.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Really? Cause here almost no one lives at home, even if they attend a local school.

Yep. For instance in Manitoba since most of the Population is centered around Winnipeg, I would say 90 percent of the grads who go to college after go to either University of Manitoba,University of Winnipeg or Red River College. Most students will end up living at home and you have students from far outside of Winnipeg who end up living in apartments or relatives.

US College is all about going to the school and living there.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Jonathon Toews
Dany Heatley
Paul Stasnty(?)
Travis Zajac
Mason Raymond
Tyler Bozak



Jaden Schwartz
Kyle Turris
Joe Colbourne
Brendan Smith
Patrick Wiercioch
Dylan Olson
Cody Goloubef
Justin Schultz

Off the top of my head. WCHA only.

The CHL is just bigger. Of course it willl have more names and better ones. But that has nothing to do with devolpment.

You give me the WCHA and i will put their alum vs any 11 team conference in all of the CHL since 2000. Have to have a cut off somewhere. Doughty and Weber different leagues. Crosby, Nash, Getzlaf all different conferences. Parise, Toews, Heatley, same conference.

When you expnad to an entire confence all of the WHL not just the east or west. The NCAA loses a lot of ground. When you comapre the whole of the CHL vs the NCAA it is not even close. But it is numbers, CHL has more.

 

[S E P H]

What a strange thread.

The CHL is clearly the better developmental route for players, it is not even close. The NCAA meanwhile is best for marginal players. The CHL features overall much better coaching - coaches employing full pro systems play versus run and gun scatter-shot NCAA play. The CHL employs a pro style schedule that prepares players for the grind of professional hockey.

Note the increasing numbers of US players choosing CHL over college.

Note of late the growing number of players giving up college commitments after they've been drafted; this is because their NHL team usually strongly advises them to play in the CHL... because they are better prepared there.

It's posts like these, that ruin these threads.

 

[Colby]

I would think that a nice benefit of playing in the CHL is that you can attend training camp, play in prospect camps, play in preseason games, etc. This gives the player a chance to get in the system, learn from veterans, and get NHL coaching. As a Ranger fan, it would have been nice if Kreider could have played in Traverse City, for example.

 

[Slowe]

Some excellent reading here with a good breakdown of somem draft info by league. With the name of the website you'd think it's pretty biased, but it's a good objective read.

http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/201...nhl-part-i-big-decisions-at-age-16/#more-1579

Between the 2005 and 2011 NHL Entry Drafts, there have been 52 Americans selected in the first round. Here is where those 52 players played their 16-year-old season:

NTDP – 24; MN-HS – 11; OHL – 5; Prep School – 4; USHL – 2; WHL – 1; Shattuck – 1; AtJHL – 1; EmJHL – 1; Midget AAA – 2.

 

[BluechipBulletin]

Perhaps you could now post the statistics relating to the increasing numbers of American players moving into the CHL?

Increasing? You realize the number fluctuates from year to year, right?

 

[BluechipBulletin]

JT Miller, on the other hand, turned down a scholarship from UND to play for Plymouth.

Not exactly. Miller signed with the New York Rangers, who sent him to Plymouth. Had there not been a contract, Miller was going to stay at NoDak (where, from what I hear, he had already begun classes).

 

[BluechipBulletin]

Your continued (and long-standing) douchery obscures a legit point: More and more American kids are playing CHL hockey. The CHL is better for fast-tracking to the NHL, and more Americans fit that bill. That doesn't mean less Americans are playing NCAA hockey though, just that more Americans are playing hockey

It also means fewer opportunities for Canadian kids at Canada's top developmental level. We're already seeing the dramatic effects of CHL teams importing their goalies instead of giving Canadian kids a shot - the chicken or egg question there is whether CHL teams are importing their goalies because Canada can't produce them, or is Canada having a harder time producing them because they're choosing to import goalies at the CHL level rather than using Canadians?

 

[BluechipBulletin]

You also have to understand that for American kids the lure of everything outside of hockey that a University has to offer is very tempting. It is the whole experience that is part of the package. We do not have the same view of College as a leaving home for the first time experience in Canada.

The CHL offers nothing like the experience of being a hockey player at a top D1 school. The easiest way to turn the tide in the recruiting battle would be for NCAA schools to be allowed to take potential recruits to a college hockey party.

 

[bluesfan94]

Not exactly. Miller signed with the New York Rangers, who sent him to Plymouth. Had there not been a contract, Miller was going to stay at NoDak (where, from what I hear, he had already begun classes).

Which is, in essence, the same thing. If you sign a contract, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to play in the NCAA, and even if he could have, I'm sure he and the Rangers management would have discussed that possibility anyways.

 

[ecemleafs]

they really arent comparable. if ur a top youth player at 16 years old u can go to the CHL while the ncaa simply is not an option for another 2 years. its really a CHL v lower canadian junior hockey levels/USHL/NTDP/HS hockey.

 

[Herby]

they really arent comparable. if ur a top youth player at 16 years old u can go to the CHL while the ncaa simply is not an option for another 2 years. its really a CHL v lower canadian junior hockey levels/USHL/NTDP/HS hockey.

Yet hundreds of NHL players over the years have had no problem playing in the USHL or Junior A in Canada, made the transition to the NCAA and then went on to play in the NHL.

As I said in my first post, some people simply put a higher value on getting an education or living the college experience.

As for the numbers, the CHL has more teams and draws from a much larger and talented player pool in Canada. They are also able to bring in high end players from Europe who often go on to NHL careers.

The large college programs are loaded though, Michigan had 9 players from its 2003 team play in the NHL. That would be almost unheard of for an individual junior team.

 

[bigd]

American kids grow up dreaming of playing D1 College hockey, esp in the hockey hotbeds of New England, Minn, and Michigan. Canadian kids grow up dreaming of playing Major junior. As they get older the are exposed to the different options but for the most part an American kid has never heard of the Memorial Cup and a Canadian kid has never heard of the College National championship.
Personally, I don't like seeing American kids go up the Canada to play and I don't like seeing Canadian kids taking American College scholarships but that's the way of the world today.
Canada produces the most NHL players but they have been losing ground to the US and Europe. I think they have the most to worry about if they want to keep up their #1 hockey status. American hockey is on the right path.

 

[Stories]

Yet hundreds of NHL players over the years have had no problem playing in the USHL or Junior A in Canada, made the transition to the NCAA and then went on to play in the NHL.

As I said in my first post, some people simply put a higher value on getting an education or living the college experience.

As for the numbers, the CHL has more teams and draws from a much larger and talented player pool in Canada. They are also able to bring in high end players from Europe who often go on to NHL careers.

The large college programs are loaded though, Michigan had 9 players from its 2003 team play in the NHL. That would be almost unheard of for an individual junior team.

A more recent example, the 2009 championship Boston University team has already had 7 of its players appear in at least 1 NHL game with quite a few of them as NHL regulars already (Colin Wilson, Kevin Shattenkirk, Matt Gilroy, Brandon Yip) and a few with cameos knocking on the door (John McCarthy, Nick Bonino, and to a lesser extent Colby Cohen).

NCAA clearly has no problem developing NHL talent, especially the upper echelon of NCAA teams.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

A more recent example, the 2009 championship Boston University team has already had 7 of its players appear in at least 1 NHL game with quite a few of them as NHL regulars already (Colin Wilson, Kevin Shattenkirk, Matt Gilroy, Brandon Yip) and a few with cameos knocking on the door (John McCarthy, Nick Bonino, and to a lesser extent Colby Cohen).

NCAA clearly has no problem developing NHL talent, especially the upper echelon of NCAA teams.

Well you also need to know that CHL teams don't recruit they draft. If Vancouver or Kitchener or Calgary or Quebec were simply allowed to recruit they could possibly have their entire team filled with drafted kids. That is part of the crapshoot that is Junior hockey and its also why it probably is more competive team by team as opposed to traditional NCAA powerhouses like BU or Minnesota or UND.

 

[bigd]

Well you also need to know that CHL teams don't recruit they draft. If Vancouver or Kitchener or Calgary or Quebec were simply allowed to recruit they could possibly have their entire team filled with drafted kids. That is part of the crapshoot that is Junior hockey and its also why it probably is more competive team by team as opposed to traditional NCAA powerhouses like BU or Minnesota or UND.

They recruit American kids. An American kid uses the threat of going NCAA to keep teams that he doesn't want to play for from picking him early in the draft so he gets to be picked by the team of his choice. Not many Canadian kids use that wild card because teams don't really believe they will jump to the NCAA. So they pick them early anyway.