Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by RECsGuy*, Jun 7, 2011.
1) he didn't have to cherrypick to get his goals
2) his playoff goal scoring is among the best ever (not that Bure was bad in playoffs, but Bossy was better).
^TDMM said it.
as a fan of bure, i feel the need to chime in. polls such as these are unfair to him and will only result in him being badmouthed.
by the way, bure didn't have to cherry pick to his goals either. he did cherrypick for more than half of his career, but he did show in his best years in vancouver that he didn't have to.
Heh, I knee someone would take issue with my wording.
Bossy played for Al Arbour on a defense-first team. So while his totals are inflated by era, they aren't as inflated as players who perhaps played for other teams.
Yeah, Bure wasn't a huge cherrypicker in Vancouver, but he still was allowed to think all-offense with backchecking an afterthought.
And then he did cherrypick his way to the two most statisitcally impressive seasons of his career in Florida
I watched both play for years and say each was impressive in their own way.
Bossy was an up and down winger, stayed in his lane old school style, kinda boring to watch except for when he shoots but man what a shot! His shot was impressive.
Bure was a more mobile, shifty and flashy puck carrier with speed on breakaways. His rushes were impressive.
I would say Bossy was the more impressive goal scorer though Bure had more highlight reel goals.
It's kinda like comparing Forsberg to Sakic, the former did more with the puck before the shot but the latter really impressed with the shot itself.
Fully agree here and I took Pavel in a close call, really it's a tossup for me, as Bossy played with a great Centerman and Pavel's setup men were not on the same caliber as Trottier
Have to pick Bossy. You can pretty much compare their GPG since they both retired at pretty much the same age and didn't have that period in their careers where GPG drops in their 30s.
But Bossy did it all the time. Twice he led the NHL in goals compared to Bure doing it 3 times. The string of three straight 17 goal seasons in the postseason is peerless and Bure just didn't do that.
I have no quibble with the pick of Bossy as for me these 2 are a toss up.
Just a couple of points though, to compare GPG for both players based on age, without adjusting for the different era or times they played in doesn't tell us very much.
Also Bossy's streak of 3 straight 17 goal seasons in the playoffs is extremely impressive but it points more to opportunity than jsut pure skill.
Denis Potvin had 4 straight seasons of 19 plus points in the playoffs and is peerless in that department for Dmen but no one is making the argument that he is the best Dman of all time based just on that either.
Bure had a better peak, although his top 5 seasons are separated by injuries and Bossy was more consistent and steady.
Bossy was the better pure shooter and had more PP goals and Bure was more electrifying and could create more from nothing.
Like I said before, not much separates these 2 great goal scorers and both are easily top 10 all time for me (in terms of pure goal scorers).
It's ironic that both were done by injuries by 30 and 31 and both players would have scored at a decent clip into their mid 30's without their respective injuries IMO.
I voted on who I thought had more impressive goals - not who I thought was the better goal scorer. They are different in my opinion.
I voted Bure the more impressive
Bossy played a year with Brent Sutter as his center and didn't miss a beat. Not suprisingly, Sutter had by far the best year of his career.
Not to nitpick but Bure never got a chance to score 17 goals in three post seasons.
true, but he didn't do it once and i think you could argue that he had the chance in '94. but like i said earlier in this thread, i'd much rather celebrate bure for being the great goal scorer that he was than badmouth him for not being as great as bossy.
i'm as big of a bure fan as there is. i abstained from chiming in on the '00 hart trophy thread, but i maintain that very little separated him, pronger, and jagr that year and that he was my pick for the hart then, and looking back i still think it's defensible.
BUT-- i don't see how anyone could argue that bure was equal to bossy in goal scoring.
the raw finishes-- bossy: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7; bure: 1, 1, 1, 3, 5
the finishes if you take out unreasonable competition (i.e., gretzky)-- bossy: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 5, 6
the finishes if you take out gretzky and kurri-- bossy: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 5
it is incredible that every year bure played more than 70 games he finished top five in goals. i think that stat is going to stand the test of time as something only two people have ever done (ovechkin was there with them until this season). that second person of course is bossy, and he played eight years with more than 70 games. plus he finished 7th the year he only played 63 games (and 5th if you take out gretzky and kurri).
and the teammates argument goes out the window when you look at the season trottier was hurt and bossy put up 58 goals (3rd behind gretzky and kurri) while carrying brent sutter and john tonelli to career seasons (both hit 40 goals, 100 points for the only time that year).
career against career, it's bossy easily.
prime against prime, it's still bossy easily.
peak against peak, now we're getting closer.
i'm too young to have seen bossy in his prime, i only know the legend of bossy destroying the canucks in '82. you heard richard brodeur talk about bossy and he still seems shellshocked thirty years later. i remember he said once in an interview, "by the time you see the number 22 on his gloves, the puck was already in the back of the net."
but i saw bure's entire career. i've seen him shut down in a playoff series by scott stevens, and i've seen him shut down by alexei zhitnik (and that sounds bad, but zhitnik played out of his mind that series). and bure could do basically whatever he wanted at the WJC the year he was captain, but he had to settle for silver because he was shut down by kris draper in the final game against canada. i'm sure there were times bossy was shut down by someone in big games too, i just never saw it. can one of the older guys chime in? still his playoff track record suggests that he was harder to shut down.
also, in terms of cross-era comparison, i always heard so i take it to be true that bossy at his peak was a better goal scorer than brett hull at his peak. i saw hull's peak. to my eyes, pavel was one of the finest goal scorers i've ever seen and in terms of pure goal scoring i would put '94 or '00 bure a bit ahead of ovechkin to date. but bure wasn't quite as unstoppable as hull, at least in terms of pure goal scoring. bure's '94 won more, but even though hull couldn't score his way to the third round, he absolutely lit up playoff series at his 70-80 goal peak. so it stands to reason that if hull was slightly above bure, and bossy was above hull, that peak vs. peak bossy was above bure.
I voted Bossy, but I think Bure could be more explosive. That's why they called him "the Russian Rocket". I got respect for both.
Bure for me. Bure was more dynamic than Bossy. Bure also never had as much support as Bossy.
58 goals in 74 games with Viktor Kozlov as a center is just nasty.
Bossy played his whole career with one of the best playmakers of all time.
Yes this is true but he did score 16 as a 22 year old. Now put Bure on a team like Wings, Flyers or the Avalanche in the mid-90s.
in Florida, Bure was getting 28 minutes per game, 5+ more minutes than most star forwards, and more than most #1 defensemen. He could handle the extra ice time, since he was only asked to play half the ice surface.
Also, read PPJ's post above. Bossy played an entire year with John Tonelli and Brent Sutter, didn't miss a beat, and gave them both career years.
the flipside to this is, he could have scored less, but enjoyed better team success and ultimately been better regarded by history.
Bure would score quite a bit less on the defense-first wings, I'd imagine. On an offensive-minded team that had the talent to go far (Like Colorado, though I think Bure's style would be awful with Sakic and especially Forsberg), he very well could have scores like Bossy. But he didn't and there's no reason to discredit bossy for actually doing what he did.
My post wasn't written to discredit Bossy at all but you have to admit that they played for two completely different teams. Where Bossy's got better and better while Bures got worse and worse until he left even worse teams.
I voted for Bossy however, I think he was marginally more impressive as a goalscorer.
Why would his style be awful with Forsberg?
because bure is much less effective when he doesn't carry the puck. he probably would have looked great with ozolinsh though. they did have that one WJC together, but ozo was just a young'un then.
we saw what bossy could do with second liners (tonelli and sutter) and we saw what bure could do with second liners (adams, craven, kozlov, whitney). they were both great. on the other hand, we saw what bossy could do with arguably an ideal linemate (trottier). i do wish we could have seen bure with the same (paul coffey, i guess?), instead of making do with lumme, jeff brown, and svehla. all good puck movers, but none elite.
Mike Bossy. In the year 1984-85, Trottier was recovering from a string of injuries which required surgery, and as a result, was relegated to lower line duties. Gillies at this point, was ready to retire and was no longer what he was. Sutter was moved to Bossy's line all year, along with Tonelli. Both Sutter and Tonelli had career years in which they never came close to matching ever again, while Bossy scored around the exact same clip he would have with Trottier/Gillies on his line. He never missed a beat without his superstar linemates and 2nd liners replacing them.
His linemates on the other hand, benefited from him greatly. Sutter, who had never before even scored 50 points, scored 102 that year, and never again scored more than 68. Tonelli, a very good player, but average 60 point man over his career, also had a career year, although he did once come close to that mark once before playing significantly more time on the top line with Boss and Trotz another year.
Bossy was on pace to eclipse 1000 goals over a "full career." I'll take him.
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