The Missing Rings: The 1995-96 Detroit Red Wings

[MBH]

Thanks for a ll the work @ShelbyZ , is interesting to see that laid out. Probably points to part of why as someone that grew up in a house with season tickets my fear of Roy isn't huge, I watched him lose a lot. True of a bunch of guys I guess. I would be curious to see Osgood's numbers against the other big three teams of the era in terms of Devils, Stars and Avs.

Belfour and Roy are actually a part of the reason I don't place as much value in franchise top 10 tenders. I mean I loved having the greatest goalie of all-time in Hasek, but as long as the guy wasn't ******* the bed I was good with a collection of guys. I mean you cannot go Legacy or Essensa. It is interesting that in this other time period Carey Price and Henrik Lundqvist the current top flight goalies have been monsters when we see them. Obviously not the post-season implications, but I feel like both guys have spanked us pretty hard over the course of their careers.

By the time we got Hasek, he was ready to retire.

It's really hard to make an argument against the career of Patrick Roy - a guy who can make a legit claim to the title of best goalie ever.
Ed Belfour was one of the elite goalies of his era, but he didn't rise to Roy's level consistently, even if he was sensational at times.

Patrick Roy on our Red Wings would have made us virtually invincible.
We won 3 Cups in that pre-cap era.
We could have won five or more if Roy was our goalie.

He was that much better than the goalies the Wings had.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

This is awesome man, thank you. Playoffs were another story, but it's clear the numbers you showed that Belfour did have many stand out games against the incredible Wings teams.

Like you said, the ownage was the Turco era. Back when Hatcher, Zubov, and Sydor were all prime, those Stars teams were defensive monsters with an ability to bury pucks. Jere Lehtinen was every bit as good as Datsyuk defensively and I think the most underrated player in the last 30 years.

That Lehtinen did it from the wing always amazed me. Basically the four guys you listed are some of the most underrated players I have watched.

The Wings really dominated Turco because of how reliant he was on moving the puck. Even during his brief good stretches while we were still decent we did the same to Mike Smith. How we choose to play hockey was difficult for that, Brodeur seemed worse against us too, especially once they targeted him with the trapozoid.

I would point out Brodeur is 4-0 against us in the playoffs as well. Though I understand there needs to be a cutoff somewhere. Just don't really think that should be buried.

Cujo knocked out Dallas and Colorado by himself pretty much if I remember right. How his time unfolded here was tough to watch. He is a much better guy than most people in Detroit think. It was pretty tough, he was a next door neighbor of a buddy of mine during his stay in Detroit. It was tough to watch, it honestly might keep him as the best goalie not in the HHOF.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

By the time we got Hasek, he was ready to retire.

It's really hard to make an argument against the career of Patrick Roy - a guy who can make a legit claim to the title of best goalie ever.
Ed Belfour was one of the elite goalies of his era, but he didn't rise to Roy's level consistently, even if he was sensational at times.

Patrick Roy on our Red Wings would have made us virtually invincible.
We won 3 Cups in that pre-cap era.
We could have won five or more if Roy was our goalie.

He was that much better than the goalies the Wings had.

Roy won his last Vezina in 91-92, Hasek would win 5 that decade. Just because the Sabres were not as good doesn't change who is better. They also met twice that I can think of in big moments. Hasek besting Roy in Nagano and then with the Wings when he was "past it" in 01-02 while being the reigning Vezina champion his sixth title you know double of Roy... I get the playoff argument people want to have, guess what across most sports I think a bit much is made of post-season stuff. Like I don't care that MJ is 6-0 in Finals and Lebron actually gets there more but loses in a more competitive league... It just is what it is.

I don't think it is arguable. Not one bit. Hasek was the best goalie I have seen and by a pretty healthy margin. I also think Ken Dryden's indifference to hockey because of him just being spectacularly more versatile as a human being is the only thing that made playoff records reachable to begin with. Do you guys know who has the most loses in NHL history? Roy has a 62% winning percentage in the playoffs, Osgood is at 60% there with 2 point lower save percentage and a .21 lower goals against average. ***To be very clear this is tough with the overlap and differences in era, but I am pointing to our guy for a reason as Osgood is disrespected a lot by our fan-base in my opinion. Another fun one in his playoff history Roy gave his team a shutout performance in just a shade over 9% of his starts. Osgood's number is 12%, so actually statistically I am more likely to get a shutout from Osgood come the post-season than Roy. He played on good teams too, even if they weren't the best team in the NHL like the Wings, they were very good.

I think most of Roy's favorite status comes from the 93' overtime miracle run. It built on the legend of 86 rookie Roy when he took the league by storm in the post-season with his triple XL jerseys and beginnings of his butterfly positioning. Again even while being hard on him it isn't like I don't think he is a top 10 goalie, I just am less certain on top 5. I think Hasek really stands alone in his own tier when we do this, while his style was nerve racking his results were amazing, he just played on some pretty poor teams. As Montreal started declining hard after 93' Roy forced his way out, good for the argument people take on his legacy with playoffs above all else in terms of he went to another team that was about to go on big playoff runs. Do you think the Avs cannot win with Osgood as well? I mean I am sure the Blackhawks would be upgraded if you gave them Lundqvist for the last decade, but it is always a tough to predict more cups.

I have watched this argument play out for years, it isn't a lack of numbers or not having seen enough games. I watch frankly a ridiculous amount of hockey and have since I was a kid. I don't have Roy in a conversation with the best for Hasek, personally I have him in a debate with Brodeur and I think if the NHL had targeted Roy's jersey conversions the way they did Brodeur's puck handling he probably is on a different level as well. But I understand those less willing to have the Marty debate, I have him a touch better than Roy as well. But had they targeted what Roy did first, I think we would have been happy not to see the Giggy lead pipe and for us to have higher goal scoring. Roy might be the most important goalie for what he did to the position.

Especially in the time period we are talking from 93 to 00-01 Hasek won 6 Vezina trophies losing two (losing to Jim Carey and Kolzig), stole the Olympics and was back to back MVP while we won back to back titles. He was demonstrably better in the era that we are talking about that anybody else in my opinion. It is a stretch of form that is closest matched by Dryden, Plante and Durnan which is a fun part. I honestly would have an easier time arguing for Roy being the 3rd or 4th best Canadiens goalie. He might have peaked at the right times, but those guys were all judged to be the best at their position for the balance of the season more frequently than Roy. Dryden and Plante have better winning percentages in the post-season as well but played on loaded Canadiens teams. Still that would be my point he fits with the other elite goalies. I think we all know that, but I don't see the best goalie of all-time, frankly he isn't the best goalie for Montreal. Reminds me of Crosby Mount Rushmore conversations where I just have to say wait a minute he is extremely likely frankly because he is out of time to do it, but he is the third best player to wear a Penguins jersey, so no he isn't on Mount Rushmore. It doesn't mean I don't have time to talk about him as the 9th or 10th best player in league history, but were having an even more elevated argument that I just disagree with. We all have opinions and I understand those feeling differently. But sorry I just don't see a universe where Roy is better than Hasek, certainly not in the time frame we are discussing which I think is the most dominant decade run of any goalie in league history.

 

[ShelbyZ]

I would be curious to see Osgood's numbers against the other big three teams of the era in terms of Devils, Stars and Avs.

Ask and you shall receive.

And this is over the same era I did for the other goalies when Osgood was in Detroit so 97-98 to 00-01. I did look at 95-96 and 96-97 as well.


vs. New Jersey

6 games, 3-2-1, .929 SV%, 2.32 GAA
No playoffs

Small sample size, but pretty good overall. He really only has one less than great start against them, which was a win in 97-98 where he allowed 4 goals. If you stretch back to 95-96 he only has two other games against the Devils, both losses coming in 96-97, but with a .917 SV%, so he stays pretty solid.

vs. Dallas

Regular season: 15 games, 8-5-2, .902 SV%, 2.50 GAA
Playoffs (one series): 6 games, 4-2-0, .938 SV%, 1.67 GAA

Interestingly, like Belfour against the Wings, Osgood has a .500 or better record against the Stars in all but one season (98-99), which must mean they frequently didn't always face each other in games. Osgood's season numbers seem to slip against them until his final year in his 1st outing with Detroit (.909, .900, .875, and then .926).

Stretching back to 95-96 doesn't help him either, although Dallas doesn't count as a real "threat" until 96-97, where Osgood was particularly terrible in 3 games against the Stars (.841) and that included allowing 6 goals in a loss and a win where he allowed 3 goals on only 12 shots...

vs. Colorado

Regular season: 10 games, 5-3-1, .902 SV%, 2.56 GAA
Playoffs (1 and 1/3rd of a series): 7 games, 1-6-0, .891 SV%, 2.82 GAA

One thing that stands out about Osgood in the RS, is that his numbers consistently slip against the Avs in all 4 years (.934, .915, .881, .879). Playoffs are tough because it's a small sample size. You have two pretty bad games where he played hurt in 1999, and then a .906 5 game series loss in 2000.

Stretching back doesn't help either. Osgood is 1-2-0 and somewhere around .893 from 95-96 to 96-97, and you have the 1996 WCF where Osgood is 2-4 and .859 against the Avs.

 

[MBH]

Ozzie's performances against Colorado were often brutal.
Have the puck all game. Dominate play. And lose 4-2.

 

[Henkka]

Ozzie's performances against Colorado were often brutal.
Have the puck all game. Dominate play. And lose 4-2.

That's not easy for a goaltender, when you have to stand cold, without any action.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Thanks for a ll the work @ShelbyZ , is interesting to see that laid out. Probably points to part of why as someone that grew up in a house with season tickets my fear of Roy isn't huge, I watched him lose a lot. True of a bunch of guys I guess. I would be curious to see Osgood's numbers against the other big three teams of the era in terms of Devils, Stars and Avs.

Belfour and Roy are actually a part of the reason I don't place as much value in franchise top 10 tenders. I mean I loved having the greatest goalie of all-time in Hasek, but as long as the guy wasn't ******* the bed I was good with a collection of guys. I mean you cannot go Legacy or Essensa. It is interesting that in this other time period Carey Price and Henrik Lundqvist the current top flight goalies have been monsters when we see them. Obviously not the post-season implications, but I feel like both guys have spanked us pretty hard over the course of their careers.

By the time we got Hasek, he was ready to retire.

I've often wondered if there's a case to be made that the Red Wings didn't need Hasek to win in 2002.

I mean you'd think coming to a team that had way more depth and talent than the Sabres teams he basically carried on his back, he would've put up some ridiculous >.93SV% <2.00GAA season, but he was more or less just good that regular season, and really didn't get it going consistently in the playoffs until they were on the brink on elimination (.903 SV% going into game 5 against the Avs. and then .953 for the remaining 8 games).

Could they have won that Cup retaining Osgood and using the difference in their salaries (around $4.25M?) on another skater?

I guess on the other hand, Hasek was the first domino to fall in building that ridiculously HOFer heavy team. If they don't make that trade, are Robitaille and Hull less interested to come over and try to win? And if they are, are the other high paid players on the team as open to renegotiating their contracts to make room for Hull as they were? If the Hasek trade was indeed that influential, then it's possible retaining Osgood (and Kozlov) means the Wings go into 01-02 still just band-aiding the '98 Cup winning core. IE they still lose LaPointe to Boston, maybe try to get a forward on the UFA market, but also try to retain guys like Murphy, Verbeek and Brown to stay competitive?

 

[Reality Check]

This is another team where I just never became upset.

Short season or not, Quebec/Colorado was the #1 seed in the '95 playoffs for the East. Only to add a HOF goaltender in Patrick Roy early in the '95-96 season as they moved to Colorado and changed conferences. Helping fix their biggest weakness in the process.

That squad just flew under the radar all season long due to the Red Wings regular season. Which I wouldn't doubt was motivated by the sweep in the '95 SCF.

 

[MBH]

I've often wondered if there's a case to be made that the Red Wings didn't need Hasek to win in 2002.

I mean you'd think coming to a team that had way more depth and talent than the Sabres teams he basically carried on his back, he would've put up some ridiculous >.93SV% <2.00GAA season, but he was more or less just good that regular season, and really didn't get it going consistently in the playoffs until they were on the brink on elimination (.903 SV% going into game 5 against the Avs. and then .953 for the remaining 8 games).

Could they have won that Cup retaining Osgood and using the difference in their salaries (around $4.25M?) on another skater?

I guess on the other hand, Hasek was the first domino to fall in building that ridiculously HOFer heavy team. If they don't make that trade, are Robitaille and Hull less interested to come over and try to win? And if they are, are the other high paid players on the team as open to renegotiating their contracts to make room for Hull as they were? If the Hasek trade was indeed that influential, then it's possible retaining Osgood (and Kozlov) means the Wings go into 01-02 still just band-aiding the '98 Cup winning core. IE they still lose LaPointe to Boston, maybe try to get a forward on the UFA market, but also try to retain guys like Murphy, Verbeek and Brown to stay competitive?

Yes. We needed Hasek.
Or an upgrade on Osgood.

At the time, Osgood had lost the trust of the Red Wings and his stock around the NHL was such that Holland couldn't move him for anything.

In Ozzie's last year here
Osgood 52 games 25-19-4 .903 2.69
Legace 39 games 24-5-5 .920 2.05

He had a 2-0 series lead against LW and then lost the next 4 games, going 0-4, .889.

He was toast in Detroit.