Post-Game Talk: THE MIGHTY SABRES - 4, The Puny Penguins - 1

[MtlPenFan]

It still baffles me long nothing else how he can continue to keep Vitale out of the lineup. I really wish a reporter would toss that question out to him one day during one of his pressers. Why would you keep a guy who is a) an absolute workhorse, b) stellar in the faceoff circle, and c) one of the fastest skaters on the team in favor of a useless slug like Glass that brings absolutely NOTHING to the lineup.

Because they don't want their press passes revoked, or they don't know **** all about hockey.

Sid's out now, but once he's healthy (and the rest of the team is as well) there are no more excuses left for this team.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Because they don't want their press passes revoked, or they don't know **** all about hockey.

Sid's out now, but once he's healthy (and the rest of the team is as well) there are no more excuses left for this team.

They don't need to be that rude about it. Just simply ask why we don't dress 4 centers every night.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying mathematically, the average across the league will always be exactly 50%. Anything else is literally impossible. As a math person, it boggles my mind that professional analysts don't understand that. For every team at 55%, there have to be teams giving up that 5%. Either one at 45%, or two to 47.5%, 5 at 49%, etc.

Ya, but as a coach, you don't accept that your team is the one at 45%. That is basically my point.

They did a study in the late 90s, I believe in 98... It concluded that having a 55-45 advantage on face offs in the regular season yielded .7 more goals per game. In the playoffs, having the same advantage yielded 0 goals. It based these stats on around 1000 regular season and playoff games.

So people can always point to studies like this to discount the importance of faceoffs. However, if anyone re-watches the 08 and 09 cups, you will clearly see how faceoffs played a key role in those series.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Ya, but as a coach, you don't accept that your team is the one at 45%. That is basically my point.

They did a study in the late 90s, I believe in 98... It concluded that having a 55-45 advantage on face offs in the regular season yielded .7 more goals per game. In the playoffs, having the same advantage yielded 0 goals. It based these stats on around 1000 regular season and playoff games.

So people can always point to studies like this to discount the importance of faceoffs. However, if anyone re-watches the 08 and 09 cups, you will clearly see how faceoffs played a key role in those series.

okay. I am agreeing with you and have been the whole time.

 

[MtlPenFan]

They don't need to be that rude about it. Just simply ask why we don't dress 4 centers every night.

GM's and coaches don't like to be told how to do their jobs. That's why you always hear cookie cutter questions.

And I'm serious about guys not knowing hockey. Listen to Madden, Rossi, Yohe, even Dejan sometimes. To them Vitale is essentially a dime-a-dozen 4th liner, and Glass has value because he "kills penalties"

 

[steveg]

I still think that there is just no way for any line consisting of Iginla, Malkin and Neal to work and give us our best possible lines when Sid is healthy.

Both Iggy and Neal should be playing RW. Neal went from a 20 goal scorer to a 40 goal scorer after making the move and Iggy shouldn't be moved from the spot he's been playing for 16 years.

Not to mention how obvious it is Iggy wants to be on Sid's wing, and I think the feeling is mutual.

xx-Crosby-Iginla
xx-Malkin-Neal

Should be the base of our top six. Whether it ends up being:

Kunitz-Crosby-Iginla
Morrow-Malkin-Neal
or
Dupuis-Crosby-Iginla
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal

is fine. It just doesn't make sense to put two guys that excel on the right playing on the same line because one of them will not be reaching their potential at all times.

I could not possibly agree more with this post. KIRK and IcedCapp have been making a very clear case for K-C-I, M-M-N, and Ogrezilla making his case for D-C-I, K-M-N. I can see the reasoning behind both, and I think both could be used -- especially if one combination is not working for a game, or stretch of games. However, I really, really believe that Kunitz-Crosby-Iginla Line 1, Morrow-Malkin-Neal Line 2, and Cooke (or Bennett)-Sutter-Dupuis Line 3 is the best use of personnel. To me, this puts everyone in their most natural positions, and I really do think that Morrow will open up space for Malkin and Neal, and should do at least as well as BB did at LW on that line (though for different reasons stylistically), and far better than the other options tried on the left side of that line this year.

I also feel that while Sid is injured, Sutter should be centering the Kunitz/Iggy line...with Jeffrey centering the third and Vitale the 4th. IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN FACEOFFS, Vitale should not sit another game this season. I simply do not understand Glass in, Vitale out...

 

[plaidchuck]

Ya, but as a coach, you don't accept that your team is the one at 45%. That is basically my point.

They did a study in the late 90s, I believe in 98... It concluded that having a 55-45 advantage on face offs in the regular season yielded .7 more goals per game. In the playoffs, having the same advantage yielded 0 goals. It based these stats on around 1000 regular season and playoff games.

So people can always point to studies like this to discount the importance of faceoffs. However, if anyone re-watches the 08 and 09 cups, you will clearly see how faceoffs played a key role in those series.

Well you'd think more won faceoffs>more puck posession>less goals against/more goals for. But who knows, numbers wise it probably isn't that cut and dry. Where is that Kennedy loving hockey stats guy when you need him?

 

[Ogrezilla]

I could not possibly agree more with this post. KIRK and IcedCapp have been making a very clear case for K-C-I, M-M-N, and Ogrezilla making his case for D-C-I, K-M-N. I can see the reasoning behind both, and I think both could be used -- especially if one combination is not working for a game, or stretch of games. However, I really, really believe that Kunitz-Crosby-Iginla Line 1, Morrow-Malkin-Neal Line 2, and Cooke (or Bennett)-Sutter-Dupuis Line 3 is the best use of personnel. To me, this puts everyone in their most natural positions, and I really do think that Morrow will open up space for Malkin and Neal, and should do at least as well as BB did at LW on that line (though for different reasons stylistically), and far better than the other options tried on the left side of that line this year.

I also feel that while Sid is injured, Sutter should be centering the Kunitz/Iggy line...with Jeffrey centering the third and Vitale the 4th. IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN FACEOFFS, Vitale should not sit another game this season. I simply do not understand Glass in, Vitale out...

I completely agree with you. My lines were all based on Bylsma not taking Dupuis out of the top 6 because I just don't think its an option for him.

 

[steveg]

Back in the good ole days, where we theorized about being this loaded instead of suffered through it, here was my plan:

Kunitz - Sid - Iginla
Morrow/Bennett - Malkin - Neal
Bennett/Morrow - Sutter - Dupuis
Cooke - Vitale - Kennedy

Note: Morrow/Bennett doesn't mean OR it means AND. Morrow would start out there, but we all agree that he can't play effectively for 16+ minutes a night. So he would take like 75% of the ES shifts on the 2nd line, but Bennett, who made the 2nd line look good should take the balance. This way Morrow gets his 2nd-line minutes, Bennett gets time and experience, and the 2nd line is always dangerous. And the 3rd line is REALLY GOOD.

I could not possibly agree more with this...

I vote for IcedCapp as an adviser to DB -- to be in charge of line combinations.

That is all.

 

[IcedCapp]

I could not possibly agree more with this...

I vote for IcedCapp as an adviser to DB -- to be in charge of line combinations.

That is all.

FINALLY a job worthy of my ego...

 

[Ogrezilla]

I will say this. Adams deserves to be playing this year. I talked **** on him all off-season and he's proven me wrong I think.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I will say this. Adams deserves to be playing this year. I talked **** on him all off-season and he's proven me wrong I think.

Maybe he's just looking good because he's on a line with Tanner Glass. That's the genius of the Glass signing. Adams no longer is the weak link on his line.

 

[wgknestrick]

FINALLY a job worthy of my ego...

If all you ever did was scratch Glass, you'd be an improvement.

 

[wgknestrick]

Maybe he's just looking good because he's on a line with Tanner Glass. That's the genius of the Glass signing. Adams no longer is the weak link on his line.

I can relate. I just ignored the bubble gum stuck to the bottom of my shoe while trying to scrape the dog S off.

Do I need to dig up my 4th line thread again where I crap all over them using statistics?

 

[steveg]

Geno needs a puck chaser. He's always played his best with someone to do the heavy lifting. Neal sure as hell isn't going to do it. Iginla might be able to, but he's better used as a scorer. Iggy - Geno - Neal will be a very good line. The players are just too good for it to not be.

Yes!

It just doesn't maximize Iggy or Geno's talents and I fully believe maximizing Geno and Sid's abilities is the way to build this offense.

YES!!!!

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

GM's and coaches don't like to be told how to do their jobs. That's why you always hear cookie cutter questions.

And I'm serious about guys not knowing hockey. Listen to Madden, Rossi, Yohe, even Dejan sometimes. To them Vitale is essentially a dime-a-dozen 4th liner, and Glass has value because he "kills penalties"

Vitale is better than Glass and probably Adams but I'm still not seeing why dime a dozen 4th liner isn't an appropriate description. Doesn't mean he's bad but 4th liners tend to be dime a dozen by nature. He skates well and will score about 5 goals. What are we talking about here?

 

[MtlPenFan]

Vitale is better than Glass and probably Adams but I'm still not seeing why dime a dozen 4th liner isn't an appropriate description. Doesn't mean he's bad but 4th liners tend to be dime a dozen by nature. He skates well and will score about 5 goals. What are we talking about here?

If you're describing him on his lonesome, then I can see the argument, even though I wouldn't agree with it.

But referring him as an interchangeable part with Glass is an insult.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Vitale is better than Glass and probably Adams but I'm still not seeing why dime a dozen 4th liner isn't an appropriate description. Doesn't mean he's bad but 4th liners tend to be dime a dozen by nature. He skates well and will score about 5 goals. What are we talking about here?

I'm fine with that. But we have at least one guy who is even less valuable than that playing in front of him.

Though he's cheap enough and good enough at faceoffs to be valued a bit more than that imo.

 

[IcedCapp]

Vitale is better than Glass and probably Adams but I'm still not seeing why dime a dozen 4th liner isn't an appropriate description. Doesn't mean he's bad but 4th liners tend to be dime a dozen by nature. He skates well and will score about 5 goals. What are we talking about here?

His face-off ability makes him a very good 4th-liner. When you add in his cap hit... It's a lot of little things that add up to make him a valuable 4th-liner. Yes, a 4th-liner, but you need to get value out of those guys on a team with top-heavy contracts.

 

[MtlPenFan]

His face-off ability makes him a very good 4th-liner. When you add in his cap hit... It's a lot of little things that add up to make him a valuable 4th-liner. Yes, a 4th-liner, but you need to get value out of those guys on a team with top-heavy contracts.

Agreed.

It's actually hard to find a prototypical fourth liner. I can't stand his psycho face, but Rinaldo is actually a perfect 4th liner. He's a wrecking ball and hits to hurt.

Vitale is a perfect 4th liner. Fast, goes balls out, provides a ton of energy, and can score a goal here and there. His snipe on Nabakov a couple of weeks ago wasn't a fluke. Head up the whole time and knew exactly what he was doing. He also wins a ton of draws and is the furthest thing from a liability.

Add the friendly cap hit, and he's exactly what you need for your 4th line. They're harder to find than people believe.

 

[steveg]

a lot of the streaks record holders are held by some above average, yet incredibly flawed teams (2001 Devils, 1985 Flyers, 1993 Penguins).

Minor point, but why exactly do you see the '93 Penguins as "incredibly flawed?" That is not how I would have described that team, at all...

 

[steveg]

seriously, I remember an NBC game where the announcers asked the stats guys to find the average faceoff percentage across the league. They were absolutely shocked at how fast they found it and that it was exactly 50%. True story. I died a little that day.

That is just CLASSIC!

 

[steveg]

I will say this. Adams deserves to be playing this year.

Agree. I like him on the PK especially...

 

[steveg]

FINALLY a job worthy of my ego...

Agreed!

 

[Stars]

Name one since he returned from the concussion. IMO, even with the shoulder injury intervening, he's been a force since returning from the concussion. I joked at the time that he got concussed into remembering that it was a year ago. I think the other thing for me-- and I have to give credit to Jiggy and TR on this-- is in pointing out just what a lazy piece of **** Neal has been pretty much all year. It's been so easy to focus on the inadequacy of LW after LW that it's easy to ignore the more obvious culprit. Don't you remember how long people would overlook just how bad Sykora looked out there because he'd scored all these goals or because LW after LW wasn't cutting it. ****, Bylsma never would have admitted it proactively. It took a 2-0 deficit to the Caps in 2009 to wake his *** up to how much of an anchor Sykora had become. Watch Neal play-- I mean really watch him-- for a half dozen games. He may look o'k at times, but he's pretty much Sykora like more often than that. As I said, I never noticed it until others pointed it out.

Neal is Sykora 2.0. Sykora racked up ES goals left and right when Malkin had the appropriate LW (Malone). See a parallel with Neal? The goal scoring dropped off and came more on the PP when the LW wasn't close to as good a complement. That goes for Sykora, and it goes for Neal. He's not a bust, but you take away Neal's shot, and I'm not sure I'd rather have him on the ice than any winger on the Pens who played tonight save Glass and Adams.

Neal is playing the same way he played last year .He is doing the same thing that he is supposed to do on that line. If he starts running around hitting guys all the ice like some guys are suggesting and what he probably would like to do as a guy of his size it won't work on that line.
Its funny how big guys like Nash, Ryan, etc...are called lazy because of their stride .
If Malkin didn't like Neal doing the things he does he wouldn't last 2 shifts.
.