The Lou Fontinato Story

[Canadiens Fan]

Which leads me back to my point on the cbc article -- it is completely without context. Sure, Howe getting in a couple fights a year is not remarkable compared to enforcers of the past 30 years, but it was during the Original 6 period.

I do not think it is a myth that Howe built a reputation for himself as one of the most feared fighters in the NHL.

The statistics would seem to indicate otherwise ...

Total number of games played - 2,450
Professional Seasons (NHL & WHA) - 32
Total number of confirmed (actual) fights (majors) - 21


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Fights against smaller opponents - 18
Fights against same size opponents - 2
Fights against larger opponents - 1

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Fights against opponents who usually fought - - 12
Fights against opponents who were not fighters - 10

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Wins - 2
Losses - 7
Draws - 9
Undetermined - 3

This analysis was completed by looking at every game summary that Gordie Howe played in his 32 NHL & WHA seasons, which comprised 1,767 NHL regular season games, 157 NHL playoff games, 419 WHA regular season games, 78 WHA playoff games, 23 NHL All-Star games and 6 WHA All-Star games for a grand total of – 2,450 games. It does not include the International series games while in the WHA or any pre-season games.

Numbers courtesy of noted hockey researcher Paul Patskou.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

The statistics would seem to indicate otherwise ...

Again - context.
What was 'a lot' of fighting majors during the Original 6?

... and if anyone knows -- since when did game summaries list a winner to fights?

 

[Canadiens Fan]

Again - context.
What was 'a lot' of fighting majors during the Original 6?

... and if anyone knows -- since when did game summaries list a winner to fights?

The "winner" of the fight is taken from newspaper accounts of the game. Of course the only true way to know who won a fight is to see it, but the reports of the day do give us some valuable insight.

Apparently, there is only one Howe fight that is archived on video. He loses. Also, if the account of the fight lists a third man in, for example Ted Lindsay, than it is pretty clear that Howe did not win the fight.

What the research proves is that if nothing else that there is a myth not only with regards to a Gordie Howe hat trick (which he only did twice), but also with regards to Howe being an unbeatable fighter. Each of which this research casts some serious doubt on.

 

[Axxellien]

DropYourGloves.com??

Interesting site, but even the most cursory of glances reveals glaring & obvious omissions....The NHL of the 1950s was not the WWF

 

[RabbinsDuck]

The "winner" of the fight is taken from newspaper accounts of the game. Of course the only true way to know who won a fight is to see it, but the reports of the day do give us some valuable insight.

Apparently, there is only one Howe fight that is archived on video. He loses. Also, if the account of the fight lists a third man in, for example Ted Lindsay, than it is pretty clear that Howe did not win the fight.

What the research proves is that if nothing else that there is a myth not only with regards to a Gordie Howe hat trick (which he only did twice), but also with regards to Howe being an unbeatable fighter. Each of which this research casts some serious doubt on.

Although if the players, refs and fans from the time affirm this (which seems to be the case from what I have read) is that perception really a myth? Or are the stats not showing the complete picture?

Why is it only being questioned 50 years later?

 

[Axxellien]

Simple Logic:

Common sense dictates that a player with say: 139 PIM in a 70 game season was involved in more than 2 or 3 fights during that year!

 

[Canadiens Fan]

Common sense dictates that a player with say: 139 PIM in a 70 game season was involved in more than 2 or 3 fights during that year!

Common sense and a $1.50 will get you a coffee at Tim Horton's.

Taking the time to scour through 70 boxscores for each season tells an irrefutable story. Just like one could use the boxscores to add up Howe's goals and assists, one can do the same with fighting majors. If one can then only locate 2-3 fights per year from those game summaries, then 2-3 fights per year is what it is.

If you feel there should be more, or that common sense dictates that there should be more, you could check the official NHL game summaries for yourself.

The truth is out there.

 

[KingJoyal]

Anyone who doubts Gordie Howe's willingness to fight if necessary should recall the story both Howe and Bobby Orr tell of a very physical exchange between them which occurred early in Orr's NHL career. Apparently Bobby had cross checked or otherwise fouled Gordie in the Boston end, and Howe responded by flattening Orr. Gordie admits he went after Bobby fully realizing that he might have to take on the likes of Ken Hodge, Ted Green and John McKenzie, and was fully prepared to do so. That donnybrook did not occur only because Orr called off the cavalry, admitting that he had provoked the hit Howe had given him.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

Anyone who doubts Gordie Howe's willingness to fight if necessary should recall the story both Howe and Bobby Orr tell of a very physical exchange between them which occurred early in Orr's NHL career. Apparently Bobby had cross checked or otherwise fouled Gordie in the Boston end, and Howe responded by flattening Orr. Gordie admits he went after Bobby fully realizing that he might have to take on the likes of Ken Hodge, Ted Green and John McKenzie, and was fully prepared to do so. That donnybrook did not occur only because Orr called off the cavalry, admitting that he had provoked the hit Howe had given him.

Another good example of the fallacy of solely relying on the memories of players for incidents that took place long ago. Memories fade, bias intrudes, stories become legends and the truth is lost along the way.

The purpose of a researcher is to search for the truth by using all available sources. On the flipside one should never rely on one account of a particular incident and then claim it as fact, especially when there are others sources available. This is achieved by looking into such stories to see if the incident is as the players remember or if time has slightly changed what really took place.

To use an analogy, when we were kids most of us surely remember the game where someone would whisper something in somebodies ear and then it would be passed down the line. Eventually the last person in line would hear something completely different than what had been said at the start of the line.

Sadly, most of these stories follow a similiar pattern. This one is no different.

The exchange as described above took place on October 19th, 1966 at the Boston Garden in Bobby Orr's first ever NHL game. There is no mention of the above incident in the next day's write up of the game in the Globe and Mail. Luckily for us, this particular game is archived on video.

First, let's start with what didn't happen. Firstly, Ken Hodge would not become a member of the Boston Bruins until a year later. Secondly, Bobby Orr had committed no foul to Howe. Thirdly, there was no potential donnybrook to be avoided.

Now, here's what did happen. In a scrum, Howe elbowed a defenseless Orr in the head from behind. This was a common tactic that Howe would use on rookies, as a way of marking his territory. The referee whistles the play dead, the scrum breaks up and Howe takes his place on the Detroit bench.

Not as exciting as the myth and the legend is it ??

 

[KingJoyal]

Another good example of the fallacy of solely relying on the memories of players for incidents that took place long ago. Memories fade, bias intrudes, stories become legends and the truth is lost along the way.

The purpose of a researcher is to search for the truth by using all available sources. On the flipside one should never rely on one account of a particular incident and then claim it as fact, especially when there are others sources available. This is achieved by looking into such stories to see if the incident is as the players remember or if time has slightly changed what really took place.

To use an analogy, when we were kids most of us surely remember the game where someone would whisper something in somebodies ear and then it would be passed down the line. Eventually the last person in line would hear something completely different than what had been said at the start of the line.

Sadly, most of these stories follow a similiar pattern. This one is no different.

The exchange as described above took place on October 19th, 1966 at the Boston Garden in Bobby Orr's first ever NHL game. There is no mention of the above incident in the next day's write up of the game in the Globe and Mail. Luckily for us, this particular game is archived on video.

First, let's start with what didn't happen. Firstly, Ken Hodge would not become a member of the Boston Bruins until a year later. Secondly, Bobby Orr had committed no foul to Howe. Thirdly, there was no potential donnybrook to be avoided.

Now, here's what did happen. In a scrum, Howe elbowed a defenseless Orr in the head from behind. This was a common tactic that Howe would use on rookies, as a way of marking his territory. The referee whistles the play dead, the scrum breaks up and Howe takes his place on the Detroit bench.

Not as exciting as the myth and the legend is it ??

Canadiens Fan, you're right. Between Gordie Howe's faulty recollection of the incident, and my faulty recollection of the article about that incident, the story I told above is a fictionalized account of the true story. If you google "The Gordie Howe extravaganza post," and scroll down a bit, you'll see where I got my story.

Dave Waddell, presumably a sports writer with the Windsor Star, wrote the following:

"Orr ... cross-checked him across the back of the neck on the Wing forward's first shift. As pain shot down his spine, Howe turned around to see it was Orr. Howe silently stocked the 18-year-old finally dropping Orr with a crunching check right in front of the Bruins' bench." (the spelling is exactly as in the article)

Here is Gordie Howe's recollection of the incident:

"'I was surrounded by Wayne Cashman, (John) 'Pie Face' Mackenzie and a bunch of them and I thought here we go get ready to start swinging first,' Howe said. 'But just before all heck broke loose, there's a voice from the bottom of the pile. Orr is still lying there and he says, 'Leave him alone boys, I deserved that.' Bobby and I never had any problems after that.'" (again, the spelling is exactly as in the article)

Just as Kenny Hodge was not there, as I incorrectly indicated, neither was Wayne Cashman, as Howe indicated. Cashman was in Oklahoma City in 1966-67. However, Gordie and I were both correct about John McKenzie being there. Ted Green was also there, as I indicated, and would have been in the middle of any donnybrook, had there been one.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Dave Waddell, presumably a sports writer with the Windsor Star, wrote the following:

"Orr ... cross-checked him across the back of the neck on the Wing forward's first shift. As pain shot down his spine, Howe turned around to see it was Orr. Howe silently stocked the 18-year-old finally dropping Orr with a crunching check right in front of the Bruins' bench." (the spelling is exactly as in the article)

This is the same story Howe tells on the "Legends of Hockey" series on Bobby Orr. Howe said Bobby - "Laid the lumber on the back of my head." And, laughing, Gordie said he was determined to "smack this little pimple-faced kid." He then went on to say that Orr called off retaliation from his teammates because he "deserved that."

 

[Axxellien]

"Relax Gentleman, I deserved That"

Yes, The incident is well described in the excellent 1990 release, "The Best Of Bobby Orr"....Orr had gone for the jugular in his first shift, going for the Big Guy, letting Howe know{ in a rather awkward manner} that a new force had arrived....Much in the same way that John Ferguson attacked Ted Green in his very First NHL Appearance...A calling Card...

 

[Axxellien]

Fight Night Hockey:

Common sense and a $1.50 will get you a coffee at Tim Horton's.

Taking the time to scour through 70 boxscores for each season tells an irrefutable story. Just like one could use the boxscores to add up Howe's goals and assists, one can do the same with fighting majors. If one can then only locate 2-3 fights per year from those game summaries, then 2-3 fights per year is what it is.

If you feel there should be more, or that common sense dictates that there should be more, you could check the official NHL game summaries for yourself.

The truth is out there.

Well, right off the bat, that site omits 2 obvious fights that i have video/photo proof off..Someone like Howie Young of Detroit would instigate or participate in a fight or a brawl at least once every 3 games..There was less mayhem than in subsequent decades, though..

 

[Canadiens Fan]

Well, right off the bat, that site omits 2 obvious fights that i have video/photo proof off..Someone like Howie Young of Detroit would instigate or participate in a fight or a brawl at least once every 3 games..There was less mayhem than in subsequent decades, though..

I am not sure what site you are talking about. I am basing my facts about Howe's fights on the article by Jeff Marek which was linked to in this thread and was based on the painstaking research done by noted hockey historian Paul Patskou.

 

[Axxellien]

"dropyourgloves.com"

is the site mentioned above...Gordie Howe had relatively few face to face,one on one confrontations....Mr. Elbows was considered dirty/sneaky by many players & fans...Plus that intimidating rep.

 

[KingJoyal]

Given Gordie Howe's recollection of his fight with Lou Fontinato, and his recollection of his first physical encounter with Bobby Orr, can we assume that Mr. Hockey has been at least partially responsible for the mythology which has grown around these stories? Is it also possible that he is a bit of a story teller? Perhaps his desire to tell an entertaining story defeats his desire to tell the true story. Perhaps, it is generally true that, with a microphone in front of you, a good story trumps a true story.