The Legacy of Ken Holland

[Claypool]

Anyone know when Yzerman's contract with Tampa officially runs out? Will be able to sign him before the draft?

 

[Dotter]

By definition, you always get a UFA for nothing.

Holland tried to make up for the loss of Filppula by getting a UFA in the offseason, and unfortunately it did not work out (and we are still paying for it) .

Do I think it is a huge blemish on Holland's career, no. But we were in a different position at that point, still fighting in the playoffs. If he traded Filppula before the trade deadline without a replacement, that would have been a bigger problem for the team. We are not in that position today, and should not risk losing pending UFAs for nothing.

Your logic as presented just doesn't fit what happened in reality.

My logic absolutely fits to exactly what happened in reality. That is your opinion. My opinion is Ken Holland came out whole (actually better). Could he have traded Flip? Sure. But he didn't want to, and as you pointed, it would have been better to have re-signed him. He gambled and lost $2 on a scratch off $2 ticket. That's how insignificant it is. Since then he's won $2 on $1 dollar tickets.... coming out slightly ahead in the end.

As you pointed out, UFA are free. You get them for nothing. Ken Holland signed a couple UFA for nothing and traded them for real assets; draft picks. Out of nothing!

• Steve Ott (Free 6th)
• Scott Wilson (Free 5th)
• Thomas Vanek (Free 3rd)
• And maybe more this season
• Also signing some UFA made some of our drafted players expandable (Tatar (1st, 2nd, 3rd), Sheahan (3rd), Smith (2nd, 3rd), Jurco (3rd))

This more than makes up the small blip of choosing not to trade Filppula... again, which came from FREE ASSETS.

Here's a short example of my line of thinking that you said is flawed. I thrive to come out whole or better in business and life decisions.

**I found a car I wanted to buy for $17,000, I looked it over and I thought if I could get it for $16,000, then that'd be a huge bargain that I could re-sell to make $1000 on if I chose to do that. On my way to buy the car, my tire blew out on my 'old' car. It needed new tires that would cost me $600. So now I am in the mindset I need to buy the new car for $15,400 so I can come out even (or ahead since I get brand new tires). I get the $17k valued car for $15,400 and bought 4 brand new tires for the old car which I sold for $1000 more than I originally wanted.**

Because the tires blew out, I wiggled out a way to come out an extra $1000 ahead. That's what I see Ken Holland did in this situation.
We can't dwell on the $600 new tires since someone else essentially paid for them, and ultimately allowed me to come out an extra $1000 ahead on the sale of the old car -- because it had 4 brand new tires. (by the way, this is a true story)

That's my logic.

 

[Henkka]

Ken Holland draft pick trade record since 2016 draft:

OUT:
1st 2016 (Datsyuk-trade)
5th 2018 (Sheahan-Wilson trade)
5th 2019 (Jensen-Bowey trade)

IN:
1st 2018 (Tatar)
1st 2016 (Datsyuk trade)
2nd 2018 (Smith)
2nd 2019 (Tatar)
2nd 2019 (Nyquist)
2nd 2020 (Jensen)
2nd 2016 (Datsyuk-trade)
3rd 2020 (Nyquist, conditional for 2nd)
3rd 2017 (Jurco)
3rd 2017 (Vanek)
3rd 2017 (Smith)
3rd 2018 (Sheahan-Wilson)
3rd 2019 (Mrazek)
3rd 2021 (Tatar)
4th 2018 (Mrazek)
5th 2019 (Wilson)
6th 2018 (Ott)

 

[ShelbyZ]

He kinda did trade Filppula. He essentially traded him for Stephen Weiss, which didn't work out (which I don't blame anyone for -- unforeseen circumstances). Now Frans Nielsen.

While it is true he didn't get a 2nd rounder for Flip, he did get Weiss/Nielsen without giving up assets. Basically a swap that essentially did work out now we have Frans Nielsen signed from UFA.

IMO, the missed opportunity to move Filppula was before the lockout shortened season began.

Guy was coming off a 66pt season with one year left, and had probably his highest value at that point. If he has another 60+ pt season (pace, considering it was 12-13), he likely prices himself out of staying in Detroit, and/or tests the UFA market and gets a huge overpayment.

Considering they lost Rafalski the summer before, just lost Lidstrom and Stuart, and missed out on Suter and most of the other dmen on the UFA market, flipping Filppula as a 1 year rental could've netted them a D prospect, picks and/or other assets to help get some D.

They could've picked up a stop gap bargain bin C for a year and still been able to go after Weiss the next summer.

 

[Dotter]

IMO, the missed opportunity to move Filppula was before the lockout shortened season began.

Guy was coming off a 66pt season with one year left, and had probably his highest value at that point. If he has another 60+ pt season (pace, considering it was 12-13), he likely prices himself out of staying in Detroit, and/or tests the UFA market and gets a huge overpayment.

Considering they lost Rafalski the summer before, just lost Lidstrom and Stuart, and missed out on Suter and most of the other dmen on the UFA market, flipping Filppula as a 1 year rental could've netted them a D prospect, picks and/or other assets to help get some D.

They could've picked up a stop gap bargain bin C for a year and still been able to go after Weiss the next summer.

 

[FMichael]

I mean, I don't know. He made some pretty fantastic moves.

21sts and Anders Eriksson for Chris Chelios
Absolutely nothing for Larry Murphy
Two seconds for Brad Stuart
Kozlov and a 1st for Dominik Hasek
Coffey and malcontent Primeau for Shanahan and trash
$1 for Ray Shepard and then Ray Shepard for Igor Larionov
$1 for Kris Draper

Hell, even recently, #18 for Mantha and Bertuzzi might be a better move.

Shanny, Murphy, and Larionov was Bowman...Sheppard, and Draper were Bryan Murray...Just sayin.

 

[FMichael]

Depends whether you want to give credit to Holland for trades that were made when he was Assistant GM or just GM.

Indeed...The 97, and 98 Cup winning rosters were moves made by Bowman.

 

[Ricelund]

To be fair, a lot of people on this board were calling for Holland to trade Filppula after he had that great season.

 

[Dotter]

To be fair, a lot of people on this board were calling for Holland to trade Filppula after he had that great season.

Yeah when Zetterberg and Datsuk were like 32/33 years old and still performing like the best 1-2 punch in the world while certainly looking like they still have good years left. Do teams often just turn it all off and start a rebuild when they have arguably the best center duo in the world?

Not to mention, Wings had a prime Kronwall, Franzen who was a scoring monster, and Nyquist Explosion. Wings had no center depth outside of Flip. Teams don't go full rebuild when they have that much talent.

There was no immediate replacement for Filppula. Just because people call for it doesn't make it smart or intelligent. People around here were just calling for Blash to give Zadina 27 minutes of ice time his 1st NHL game. Lol.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Yeah when Zetterberg and Datsuk were like 32/33 years old and still performing like the best 1-2 punch in the world while certainly looking like they still have good years left. Do teams often just turn it all off and start a rebuild when they have arguably the best center duo in the world?

Not to mention, Wings had a prime Kronwall, Franzen who was a scoring monster, and Nyquist Explosion. Wings had no center depth outside of Flip. Teams don't go full rebuild when they have that much talent.

There was no immediate replacement for Filppula. Just because people call for it doesn't make it smart or intelligent. People around here were just calling for Blash to give Zadina 27 minutes of ice time his 1st NHL game. Lol.

malkin and crosby had passed them years earlier. nyquist explosion didn't happen until flip left.

there was no immediate replacement for flip, that's correct. in fact we didn't found one during the eurotwins era.

those teams had enough talent to make the playoffs as late seed and then get bounced early.

fullblown rebuild would've meant trading every vet, not just flip. we didn't go in to full rebuild when we lost flip for nothing and failed to replace him.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

IMO, the missed opportunity to move Filppula was before the lockout shortened season began.

Guy was coming off a 66pt season with one year left, and had probably his highest value at that point. If he has another 60+ pt season (pace, considering it was 12-13), he likely prices himself out of staying in Detroit, and/or tests the UFA market and gets a huge overpayment.

Considering they lost Rafalski the summer before, just lost Lidstrom and Stuart, and missed out on Suter and most of the other dmen on the UFA market, flipping Filppula as a 1 year rental could've netted them a D prospect, picks and/or other assets to help get some D.

They could've picked up a stop gap bargain bin C for a year and still been able to go after Weiss the next summer.

That's way more aggressive than GMs are.

 

[Henkka]

Fullblown rebuild would've meant trading every vet, not just flip. we didn't go in to full rebuild when we lost flip for nothing and failed to replace him.

Yep...

And recapture penalties for Zetterberg and Franzen killed all the possibilities for a fullblown rebuild. Those became untradeable contracts after the CBA change. And those contracts were made, what, 3 years before the CBA change? There was some 8-9 years left of the term after 2012 lockout.

Only option was to push as long as you could.

People should get over this raw fact. This f***ing whining year after year about old things, how this and that should have been done, when you even don't know the CBA restrictions, is so total time wasting that my head is gonna blow up.

 

[Dotter]

malkin and crosby had passed them years earlier. nyquist explosion didn't happen until flip left.

there was no immediate replacement for flip, that's correct. in fact we didn't found one during the eurotwins era.

those teams had enough talent to make the playoffs as late seed and then get bounced early.

fullblown rebuild would've meant trading every vet, not just flip. we didn't go in to full rebuild when we lost flip for nothing and failed to replace him.

Yes Crosby/Malkin did in scoring, not at complete game at that time. The Nyquist Explosion happened the prior year in the AHL I thought. His scoring and skill was obvious nonetheless.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Is it true that Develanno is going to retire and take on a advisory role only? Is Holland moving up to team president? Is Steve Y going to be your next GM? I have heard a lot of rumors. Wondering what is true and what is false? Thanks Leafs fan.

 

[Henkka]

Is it true that Develanno is going to retire and take on a advisory role only? Is Holland moving up to team president? Is Steve Y going to be your next GM? I have heard a lot of rumors. Wondering what is true and what is false? Thanks Leafs fan.

I think Devellano is on an advisor role already.

Nobody knows what is true but best quess is Holland going to Seattle after 2019-20 season

Yzerman takes the GM spot after. They could split the duties at 2019-20 season anyhow. I don't care how, it's quite meaningless.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I think Devellano is on an advisor role already.

Nobody knows what is true but best quess is Holland going to Seattle after 2019-20 season

Yzerman takes the GM spot after. They could split the duties at 2019-20 season anyhow. I don't care how, it's quite meaningless.

Thanks

 

[Frk It]

I think Devellano is on an advisor role already.

Nobody knows what is true but best quess is Holland going to Seattle after 2019-20 season

Yzerman takes the GM spot after. They could split the duties at 2019-20 season anyhow. I don't care how, it's quite meaningless.

There were reports in December that Seattle wants to hire their GM this summer, 1 year prior to their 1st season.

 

[Henkka]

There were reports in December that Seattle wants to hire their GM this summer, 1 year prior to their 1st season.

Does that prevent Holland being him?

There hasn't been any reports lately about Seattle GM. For me this total silence (since december) tells that their target is still contracted.

George McPhee was signed 1 year befire expansion draft and Seattle has 2 years and 4 months until that.

Holland contract timeline matches equally with that. Leaving Detroit at 2020 is 1 year before expansion draft.

 

[ricky0034]

Yes Crosby/Malkin did in scoring, not at complete game at that time. The Nyquist Explosion happened the prior year in the AHL I thought. His scoring and skill was obvious nonetheless.

ah yes super obvious

"this is a men's league,kid's aren't the answer"

 

[griffs]

So when are we starting the Yzerman thread with all his moves?

 

[SantosHalper]

Thank you Ken Holland, one of the greatest GMs and hockey minds there's ever been. And true Red Wings legend.

1983-1985, minor league goalie for the Wings
1985-1987, scout
1987-1994, director of amateur scouting
1994-1997, asst. GM
1997-2019 GM and Ex. VP
2019- Sr. VP

 

[Electric Eric]

So when are we starting the Yzerman thread with all his moves?

Probably when makes his first move is my guess.

 

[waltdetroit]

Thank you Ken Holland, one of the greatest GMs and hockey minds there's ever been. And true Red Wings legend.

1983-1985, minor league goalie for the Wings
1985-1987, scout
1987-1994, director of amateur scouting
1994-1997, asst. GM
1997-2019 GM and Ex. VP
2019- Sr. VP

Hope he stays With the Wings until he retires from hockey. Wish he had a number to raise to the rafters

 

[Henkka]

Hope he stays With the Wings until he retires from hockey. Wish he had a number to raise to the rafters

Just re-watched the press conference, and noticed that Holland was promoted and signed a multi-year extension.

It looks like he isn't going anywhere.

Just perfect. Best thing for us is that Holland stays and they WORK TOGETHER with Yzerman.

Both are hockey masterminds and we need a strong office.

I was also fearing that if HOlland leaves, he'll weaken the Red Wings front office taking Andersson or some scouts with him. Now everybody will stay. We will get only stronger.

 

[Frk It]

'Into the unknown': A look at what's next for Ken Holland