The Laine/Torts relationship

[thebus88]

Also, that Columbus GM must have a ton of faith in Torts, seems like he's getting the "difficult" but talented players from other teams this season (Domi, Laine). Seems like a dangerous path to take but props on the guy for always trying to improve the team, I appreciate that with him

Interesting and legit point for those who seem to be dead set on the idea that Torts is in his last year(s) coaching.

 

[thebus88]

Agreement between front office and agent were to keep it (PLD TRADE REQUEST DETAILS) behind closed doors...

Well, maybe somebody should have included Torts in these supposed “agreements”, huh??

Let me also point out the lack of negativity directed towards Torts from either Jarmo or any of his players regarding these recent (or past “Russian”) situations while coaching in Columbus.

 

[grieves]

I thought I made that clear. I'm guessing we are at least two generations apart.

Do you actually believe that an employee should just swallow his pride or leave the workplace instead of standing up for himself?

If you treat people like that you sure as hell can expect them to talk shit behind your back and won't have any loyalty towards you.

The employee should openly communicate about what the perceived problems are and if the boss is good, they will explain or alter the behaviour. If any boss allows open insurrection, they are a weak boss. Of course nothing is ever simple with exceptions and caveats and such. For example the military might want to pressure cook everyone so you can weed out the weaklings.

Also, caring about what other people think and say about you is also very beta. Often when you speak the truth it will hurt people's feelings and they will hate you for it. They sort of die from it but then get resurrected as a better person because the truth has allowed them to grow.

---

In other news, young hockey player makes a mistake and owns up to it. Cool beans, let's hockey.

 

[Halberdier]

"has a history of mouthing off to coaching"

= as a 15-year-old had an incident, but didn't even change teams, even though the same city has more than 3 competing teams, and almost all of his teammates from that team ended up playing for at least 2 of those.

Imagine, his "mouthing off" was so bad he ended up being one of the few guys on his team to NOT change teams at any point in his junior career

AFAIK he did (rather: his parents did) change the team once when he was very young, like 8 years old or something.

But otherwise that is to the point.

 

[DaJackal]

AFAIK he did (rather: his parents did) change the team once when he was very young, like 8 years old or something.

But otherwise that is to the point.

Yes. When he was still playing as a goalie.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Could be that Cam didn't know why Laine was benched and assumed it was performance related like it usually is.

So a) Cam didn't hear/see the "disrespect" between his linemate and a coach, b) it wasn't addressed at the 2nd intermission, and c) it wasn't addressed until after media availability despite reports that they "put it to bed" that night after the game?

 

[Monk]

So a) Cam didn't hear/see the "disrespect" between his linemate and a coach, b) it wasn't addressed at the 2nd intermission, and c) it wasn't addressed until after media availability despite reports that they "put it to bed" that night after the game?

Whoa whoa whoa, this is way more than 160 characters.

 

[Halberdier]

Yes. When he was still playing as a goalie.

He did play as a goalie and as a forward. And did that for Tappara too. I think he was like most of the time a forward and then some games as a goalie. They had some bunch of guys that were taking turns as goalies. And some of his coaches said he was a pretty good one.

 

[Halberdier]

Whoa whoa whoa, this is way more than 160 characters.

Twitter has doubled their character limit from 140 to 280.

 

[Hugh Mongusbig]

Laine is immature (claimed to say eat a d*ck to a coach), and I think it's understandable considering he is a young player with extreme expectations following him.

I think disciplinary measures used by Torts are justified and Laine does have enough self criticism and mental capacity to take it. In the defensive sense CBJ have played incredible hockey under Torts and even if his methods seem bit fascist at this point in time they still seem to work.

This is just more proof of the bias against European players. Laine, being from Europe, was just suggesting a classic English (European) dessert choice for his assistant coach to enjoy off ice. leave it to the CBJ fans and media to blow up an innocent dessert suggestion into a player/coach controversy. Sad.

 

[Monstershockey]

So a) Cam didn't hear/see the "disrespect" between his linemate and a coach, b) it wasn't addressed at the 2nd intermission, and c) it wasn't addressed until after media availability despite reports that they "put it to bed" that night after the game?

I'm thinking Cam and most if not all the players knew why. His was just a generic response so he wasn't on the hook for opening a can of worms.

 

[Monk]

Twitter has doubled their character limit from 140 to 280.

Shows how out of the loop I am I guess

 

[Halberdier]

Shows how out of the loop I am I guess

Don't worry. I did leave twitter myself. I guess the 280 chars thing was available for all accounts like only about 1-2 years ago, so it's quite recent thing.

 

[Forepar]

So a) Cam didn't hear/see the "disrespect" between his linemate and a coach, b) it wasn't addressed at the 2nd intermission, and c) it wasn't addressed until after media availability despite reports that they "put it to bed" that night after the game?

No one knows a or b. Cam could have been on the ice 150 feet away or immediately next to it. His response was standard pro athlete response. No one knows what was said to Laine during second intermission. As to c, it was addressed immediately after the game in the room...at the right time IMO.

 

[sumo]

A lot of drama in the media about Laine ”mouthing off.” I’m a Finn living and working in the US Midwest, and the communication cultures here and Finland are like night and day. I’ve lost count on how many times I’ve come across rude, blunt and disrespectful when I just wanted to be honest and get the job done.

In general, the US work culture is really hierarchical. Surprisingly close to what I’ve experienced in other big countries like China and Russia. And absolutely nothing like in Finland. In the US, a disciplinary boss is often seen as a strong leader. In Finland, it’s the opposite. Relying on your position to make a point is a sign of insecurity and cowardice. The American communication is also polite and a lot of times subtle, whereas Finns are typically direct.

Maybe I’m overgeneralizing here. Also not sure where Manitoba falls in this spectrum. I guess I want to say that I’m not surprised at a young Finn, who’s known for his witty remarks and a passionate personality, having some cultural growing pain during his first days working in the US.

Patrik will probably figure it out soon enough. Nothing to see here.

 

[avgard]

no chocolate bars ready waiting for tonights game if i watching some of it even. no cookies maybe an blueberrypie in freeze. feeling tired and columbus in hockey now with laine of unknown calibers i dont know. feeling sleepy. taking a nap right here i think. having just left farthingdeseace i dont know if i can take one more deseace of these these days with late night sugarated hockeyparty . apartment workers a coming any day now for work included at here. good luck in tonight game laine. put in some pucks, maybe it will feel better if feeling lowlife these f***ing corona days. bye. no more drama with coach back or frontstage. thanks

sir avgard hockeyprofessor

 

[Calendal]

AFAIK he did (rather: his parents did) change the team once when he was very young, like 8 years old or something.

But otherwise that is to the point.

Yes, he started out with Ilves but I believe he wanted to play at +3 age group or so, which Ilves didn't let him do. Tappara allowed it so he did the move.

 

[BB88]

I liked Laines response.

& I’m eager to watch him respond on ice.

 

[RageQuit77]

A lot of drama in the media about Laine ”mouthing off.” I’m a Finn living and working in the US Midwest, and the communication cultures here and Finland are like night and day. I’ve lost count on how many times I’ve come across rude, blunt and disrespectful when I just wanted to be honest and get the job done.

In general, the US work culture is really hierarchical. Surprisingly close to what I’ve experienced in other big countries like China and Russia. And absolutely nothing like in Finland. In the US, a disciplinary boss is often seen as a strong leader. In Finland, it’s the opposite. Relying on your position to make a point is a sign of insecurity and cowardice. The American communication is also polite and a lot of times subtle, whereas Finns are typically direct.

Maybe I’m overgeneralizing here. Also not sure where Manitoba falls in this spectrum. I guess I want to say that I’m not surprised at a young Finn, who’s known for his witty remarks and a passionate personality, having some cultural growing pain during his first days working in the US.

Patrik will probably figure it out soon enough. Nothing to see here.

Very good take on the topic. As a Finn I agree. What is considered strong leadership and signs of it can be dramatically different in Finland than what seems to be considered typical around world. Even "bad" Finnish bosses try to avoid appearing as a disciplinarian by status, because he/she knows that this is the way to admit he/she is truly bad one in an eyes of subordinates. This goes even to traditionally strictly hierarchical occupations like for example Police, Fire department, even to Army. Of course particular contexts matter, but generally 'good boss' is seen as 'one of us', somebody who don't have to pull off his title to justify his/her directions. Also, in Finland if boss is clearly wrong about something, it isn't often considered an attack against his authority per se, if someone points that out as long as it is done in person without public drama/humiliation/etc. More "status invisible" a boss is about his/her leader position and more smooth in how directions are given, more likely he/she is considered good boss also being that in practice. Consequently, contrary to expectations, if or when situations where rigid and openly hierarchical command structure must become visible for an organization to be able to work efficiently and properly for it's task (usually critical, high urgency situation), very little internal friction will occur exactly because all take it as a sign of extra-ordinary situation in which people generally must adapt fast and smooth to apparent openly imposed status based authority and hierarchy structures...

Anyway, Patrik will adapt.

EDIT/ADD: Archetypal bad and good Finnish leadership models are encoded very well in Väinö Linna's novel Tuntematon sotilas, primarily to dichotomy Koskela/Lammio, to lesser extent also to Major Sarasvuo/Lt.Col Karjula.

 

[grieves]

I'm a Finn and I've yet to encounter a boss that allows mouthing off to a superior in the workplace, if that is what is the conversation is about. I do agree that being a hardass for no reason is not something anyone should do because that will not gain you respect. It's good to have a carrot and a stick, not just the carrot. If the culture is so relaxed that everyone is just best buddies, I bet there is also terrible inefficiency in the organization. That I have seen.

Every organization is different, as is every boss. Based on results, I would go with the NA model.

Torts seems perfectly reasonable in his actions thus far.

 

[Halberdier]

To date there has been zero negative friction seen between Torts and Laine.

Things looked really bad for a moment when Torts benched Laine, but it turned out to be just about Laine having a less civilized talk with an assistant coach.

Again after the presser Torts praised Laine's game. He sees what I see, and I am happy with that. Didn't score a ton but a lot of good passes to help the team.

 

[Halberdier]

Problems with Torts & Laine relationship? Zero, zilch, zip, nada.

 

[Monk]

Problems with Torts & Laine relationship? Zero, zilch, zip, nada.

What an A hole

Spoiler

 

[sumo]

I'm a Finn and I've yet to encounter a boss that allows mouthing off to a superior in the workplace, if that is what is the conversation is about.

It’s not so much about mouthing off being tolerated. It’s just very different definitions and thresholds for mouthing off in different cultures. If I’m consistent with my communication, and you’ll ask my FI boss and US boss how respectful I am, you’ll get two very different answers.

 

[grieves]

To poster above, I understand the difference in communication culture for sure, and I believe language is the home of the culture. That said I don't think it's a Finnish thing to become so emotional that you start freaking out to your superiors. That's something I would try to weed out from my own behaviour. Of course mistakes happens in the heat of the moment and such. You have a good point though.

Very good take on the topic. As a Finn I agree. What is considered strong leadership and signs of it can be dramatically different in Finland than what seems to be considered typical around world. Even "bad" Finnish bosses try to avoid appearing as a disciplinarian by status, because he/she knows that this is the way to admit he/she is truly bad one in an eyes of subordinates. This goes even to traditionally strictly hierarchical occupations like for example Police, Fire department, even to Army. Of course particular contexts matter, but generally 'good boss' is seen as 'one of us', somebody who don't have to pull off his title to justify his/her directions. Also, in Finland if boss is clearly wrong about something, it isn't often considered an attack against his authority per se, if someone points that out as long as it is done in person without public drama/humiliation/etc. More "status invisible" a boss is about his/her leader position and more smooth in how directions are given, more likely he/she is considered good boss also being that in practice. Consequently, contrary to expectations, if or when situations where rigid and openly hierarchical command structure must become visible for an organization to be able to work efficiently and properly for it's task (usually critical, high urgency situation), very little internal friction will occur exactly because all take it as a sign of extra-ordinary situation in which people generally must adapt fast and smooth to apparent openly imposed status based authority and hierarchy structures...

Anyway, Patrik will adapt.

EDIT/ADD: Archetypal bad and good Finnish leadership models are encoded very well in Väinö Linna's novel Tuntematon sotilas, primarily to dichotomy Koskela/Lammio, to lesser extent also to Major Sarasvuo/Lt.Col Karjula.

What an excellent post. I think it also boils down to if the leadership has succeeded in instilling a common goal in the workforce. If everyone knows what they are doing their jobs for, and believe in the end goal, a more "quiet" leadership style may do the trick and keep morale high. However, if you have open insubordination from an employee in front of all the other employees, I would not hesitate for a minute to bring the hammer down and to reinforce the acceptable boundaries of behavior in the organization.

I would say that the most important quality for a leader is to inspire everyone to pull on the same rope. This is why flags and such are so important because it is the common rope for everyone to pull. If no-one believes in the flag and such, the system will break down to a lower set of unifying factions and factors, like we are seeing in the modern world.

In a defensive war everyone is highly motivated to succeed which is where you can see these failures in leadership more clearly. Again, great insight in your post.

(and sorry if OT btw, mods feel free to reinforce the acceptable boundaries within your subforums )