The Kessel Trade (redux)

[pcruz]

That's really the problem. You can't definitively say Pittsburgh won those cups "as a direct result of the trade". It's certainly possible that they would not have won without him, but it's also possible that they would have won without him. It can't be proven either way. In exactly the same way, if the Leafs win the Cup a couple of times in the next three years, you can't say for sure whether it was because of the trade, or in spite of it.

It's probably a pretty safe bet that the Leafs would not have won, and would not be as good now, if they had not made the trade. But that's about as close to certain as anyone can be.

Bottom line is that it is all speculation. Which is fine, but I think anyone who "knows" who won the trade is just fooling themselves.

Absolutely hilarious, this take.

When the Bruins won the cup the year that they drafted Seguin, it was parroted all over the place that the Bruins embarrassed the Leafs in the trade because they went on to win the Cup.
It didn't matter at all that Seguin barely played in the playoffs, his ring was a sure tell sign that he was a winner and that we had acquired a loser.

Now, all these years later, a player who ought to have won the Conn Smythe in one run and was a major contributor in the next can be said to only possibly have had an impact on whether the team won or not.

 

[pcruz]

Completely off topic, or maybe not so much in the future, but I think the next one to get the "Toronto" treatment is going to be Nylander.
He's going to have a terrible 3/4 season. Maybe 35 points for just over $10M in salary and bonuses this year.
Come July, I can already start to envision requests for him to be moved.

I hope I'm wrong, but Toronto rarely disappoints when it comes to these things.

 

[nobody]

At least he now has two of something under his belt..

Good trade.

For the OP, Babcock was never going to coach Cookies which is why he was jettisoned.

That is clever but a terrible joke. I still laughed though.

 

[garyturner3]

I think it's too early to say who won this trade until we know how Biggs turns out....

 

[Spirit of 67]

Win/win.

Moving on.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Absolutely hilarious, this take.

When the Bruins won the cup the year that they drafted Seguin, it was parroted all over the place that the Bruins embarrassed the Leafs in the trade because they went on to win the Cup.
It didn't matter at all that Seguin barely played in the playoffs, his ring was a sure tell sign that he was a winner and that we had acquired a loser.

Now, all these years later, a player who ought to have won the Conn Smythe in one run and was a major contributor in the next can be said to only possibly have had an impact on whether the team won or not.

Those same people who used Seguin and the Bruins winning the Cup in 2011 despite him only having an impact in their series against Tampa Bay to mention how bad the original Kessel trade was, never mentioned how in 2013 when the Bruins lost in the Final it was Seguin who had a disappointing playoff and was soon traded during that offseason.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Does anyone know what became of the poster who insisted Leafs were getting Jones or Barkov the whole time? Think it was KorporalKomarov/OptimusRiem? Dude waged war in Kessel trade threads for years. The return was fine, even at the time, Kessel was not a particularly attractive piece and no one was going to give us a franchise cornerstone for him when he was moved and it needed to be done.

 

[LeafsNation75]

It's probably a pretty safe bet that the Leafs would not have won, and would not be as good now, if they had not made the trade. But that's about as close to certain as anyone can be.

I think one thing that can be certain is if Toronto never traded Kessel they don't finish last place overall during the 2015-2016 season, which means not getting the best draft lottery odds and winning the 1st overall pick for Auston Matthews. Remember how they finished with just 1 point less than the Oilers and didn't clinch last place until their 82nd game.

 

[4thline]

At its core the deal was fine.

1st- standard
Kapanen- Teams top F prospect, had almost made the team out of camp as an 18 year old and was being pencilled into their roster. Hugely underrated because of a lacklustre WJC.
Harrington-Teams top 2/3 defense prospect, borderline NHL ready
Spaling- "top 9" roster player
3rd


There's a lot of good value there. Our last summer equivalent would be like 1st+Liljegren+Bracco/Borgman+Brown.
The only things really wrong are the finger quotes on Spaling, there should have been a better roster player involved (say Sutter), and we picked wrong between two fairly equal (at the time) d prospects in Dumoulin and Harrington.

Picking Dumoulin makes that trade into a slam dunk even including the the two anchors not yet mentioned: our second going back, and the retention. Those two things really change the complexion of the deal, especially the 2nd imo.

 

[Menzinger]

At its core the deal was fine.

1st- standard
Kapanen- Teams top F prospect, had almost made the team out of camp as an 18 year old and was being pencilled into their roster. Hugely underrated because of a lacklustre WJC.
Harrington-Teams top 2/3 defense prospect, borderline NHL ready
Spaling- "top 9" roster player
3rd


There's a lot of good value there. Our last summer equivalent would be like 1st+Liljegren+Bracco/Borgman+Brown.
The only things really wrong are the finger quotes on Spaling, there should have been a better roster player involved (say Sutter), and we picked wrong between two fairly equal (at the time) d prospects in Dumoulin and Harrington.

Picking Dumoulin makes that trade into a slam dunk even including the the two anchors not yet mentioned: our second going back, and the retention. Those two things really change the complexion of the deal, especially the 2nd imo.

Yeah. The abstract value was roughly the equivalent of 2 (mid to late) 1sts* and a 2nd. Which is roughly the norm for a good vet player that’s traded.

Problem as you note though was the retention + giving up a 2nd which really hurt the value for the Leafs.

 

[Iapyi]

One of the few win-win blockbuster trades.

We needed to move on from Punxsutawney Phil (yes I looked up the spelling) to start the rebuild, no way we finish last and get the 1st overall with Phil in the lineup scoring his 25-30 goals.

Pittsburgh has won two Cups...nuff said.

It is so odd to hear people say this. Our team was worse with kissile on the team.

 

[indigobuffalo]

But I was told Lou was hired because the Leafs got hosed on this trade.

Tbh I found the return underwhelming at one point but glad I was wrong.

It would be interesting to see all the background stuff that went into this trade, for sure.

On the surface, the Leafs got hosed. They made excellent decisions with the limited assets they got back, and recovered significant ground in the final valuation for both sides.

My own personal POV on this is that the deal was bad because Shanahan wanted Kapanen. So we weren’t looking for the best possible deal for Phil. We were looking for the best possible deal for Phil with Pittsburgh that involved Kapanen.

 

[Buds17]

It is so odd to hear people say this. Our team was worse with kissile on the team.

In terms of points, yes. Not in the overall standings though, and that's what matters for positioning, pre-draft lottery. 68 points didn't result in a last place finish in 14-15. 69 points did in 15-16.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Completely off topic, or maybe not so much in the future, but I think the next one to get the "Toronto" treatment is going to be Nylander.
He's going to have a terrible 3/4 season. Maybe 35 points for just over $10M in salary and bonuses this year.
Come July, I can already start to envision requests for him to be moved.

I hope I'm wrong, but Toronto rarely disappoints when it comes to these things.

I don't think the fans will be hard on him. But for cap reasons and to upgrade the defence at least short term in 2019/20, Nylander is traded in this summer.

 

[moon111]

I wonder how many teams would of given much more for Kessel if they had the chance.

 

[Iapyi]

In terms of points, yes. Not in the overall standings though, and that's what matters for positioning, pre-draft lottery. 68 points didn't result in a last place finish in 14-15. 69 points did in 15-16.

I am stating that kissiel made our team worse by him being on the team.

He was fortunate that he ended up on the only team that had the make up at the time to compensate for his weaknesses and take advantage of his strengths.

All in all he is an absolutely horrible hockey player but he has a certain skill set that was able to be incorporated within the team he was traded to.

The suggestion that some posters make in saying we would not have finished in last place with him on the team is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[Buds17]

I am stating that kissiel made our team worse by him being on the team.

He was fortunate that he ended up on the only team that had the make up at the time to compensate for his weaknesses and take advantage of his strengths.

All in all he is an absolutely horrible hockey player but he has a certain skill set that was able to be incorporated within the team he was traded to.

The suggestion that some posters make in saying we would not have finished in last place with him on the team is absolutely ludicrous.

The standings were a lot tighter in 15-16 compared to the previous season. Think the Leafs were one of the best (or even the best) last place teams in NHL history.

Don't remember what the team's cap situation was like, but Kessel replacing one of the RW's on that roster could've realistically made a last place finish a much tougher task, even if only marginally so. Impossible to know as management wanted to turn that page.

 

[Iapyi]

The standings were a lot tighter in 15-16 compared to the previous season. Think the Leafs were one of the best (or even the best) last place teams in NHL history.

Don't remember what the team's cap situation was like, but Kessel replacing one of the RW's on that roster could've realistically made a last place finish a much tougher task, even if only marginally so. Impossible to know as management wanted to turn that page.

There is also the fact that Babcock would only sign with our team on the condition that we divest ourselves of kissle, he wanted no part of that poop storm.

 

[Buds17]

There is also the fact that Babcock would only sign with our team on the condition that we divest ourselves of kissle, he wanted no part of that poop storm.

Hadn't heard that. Made sense to move on from Kessel and Phaneuf from a cap viewpoint, I'd also guess.

 

[Iapyi]

Hadn't heard that. Made sense to move on from Kessel and Phaneuf from a cap viewpoint, I'd also guess.

Moving on from them made sense from every possible angle.

 

[FerrisRox]

Apparently Babcock didn't want Kessel, and said he wouldn't sign unless he was gone, and I personally don't think Kessel would have straightened out his act without the trade.

Apparently?

According to who?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Absolutely hilarious, this take.

When the Bruins won the cup the year that they drafted Seguin, it was parroted all over the place that the Bruins embarrassed the Leafs in the trade because they went on to win the Cup.
It didn't matter at all that Seguin barely played in the playoffs, his ring was a sure tell sign that he was a winner and that we had acquired a loser.

Now, all these years later, a player who ought to have won the Conn Smythe in one run and was a major contributor in the next can be said to only possibly have had an impact on whether the team won or not.

I don't know what the Seguin reference is for, as I have never mentioned him on these boards, let alone this thread.

My point was that there is no way to prove that Pittsburgh would not have won the Cup without Kessel. If you think that my "take is hilarious", then please provide absolute proof that they could not have won either of those years without Kessel.

I happen to agree that he was a large part, and they quite possibly, maybe even probably, wouldn't have won without him. But that was not my point.

 

[Menzinger]

I am stating that kissiel made our team worse by him being on the team.

He was fortunate that he ended up on the only team that had the make up at the time to compensate for his weaknesses and take advantage of his strengths.

All in all he is an absolutely horrible hockey player but he has a certain skill set that was able to be incorporated within the team he was traded to.

The suggestion that some posters make in saying we would not have finished in last place with him on the team is absolutely ludicrous.

What’s ludicrous is saying he’s a horrible hockey player.

The guy was a hair away from winning the Conn Smythe and is a near PPG playoff performer on multiple teams....

 

[LeafFever]

Apparently?

According to who?

I think the real reason is Babcock and his wife thought about living in Buffalo the next 8 years.

 

[Jack Bauer]

All in all he is an absolutely horrible hockey player but he has a certain skill set that was able to be incorporated within the team he was traded to.

What sport do you watch?

Phil Kessel is a horrible hockey player?

6 time 30 goal scorer. Approaching 350 goals and 800 points in a relatively injury free career after his shoulder surgery.

Oh and did I mention he over came cancer as a teenager to live up to his pre draft hype as an elite sniper in the NHL?

92 point last season after 2 straight Cup runs where he was basically a point per game scorer. On pace for similar totals this year.

Yeah, he's the worst 90 point forward who scores 30 goals and doesn't disappear at playoff time that this league has ever seen.