The Kessel Trade (redux)

[ShaneFalco]

Burke created a team and totally put the wrong players in leadership roles. He had to go, so did Phaneuf

 

[Eb]

Look, i get the idea that we needed to move on from Kessel, There was a perceived need for a culture change. a new identity as a team so we had to move on from Kessel. Thats Fine.

What I hate is the value that was obtained from trading him. Look at what Kessel comparables are since the trade:

14 Tavares	274	122	140	262
15 Mackinnon	265	98	160	258
16 Kessel	282	97	161	258
17 Seguin	273	110	145	255
18 Burns	284	72	181	253

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Do you think any of these players could be had for 6.8M/yr by trading a 1st and an A prospect. Its completely ridiculous that most people would be happy with that return.

Also for some reason people keep bringing up that trading Kessel netted Anderson which doesnt make sense at all. That's like saying we trade Marner for a 2nd and then we trade that 2nd to get McDavid. Those are 2 different trades, even though we may have improved in the end, we could have had much much more. Another 1st, a good young roster player..

Same is true for the Kessel trade, we should have been able to get much more let alone retain and give up a 2nd.

I see where you’re coming from. But you’re missing an important factor that Kessel had a limited no trade clause which severely hampered the teams that were open/willing to trade for Kessel.

 

[Antropovsky]

Quite honestly shows just how much you pay attention.
During his tenure in Toronto, Phil was paired with Bozak and one of Lupul or JvR. Which of those 3 were star power players that turned this lazy Kessel into a 35+ goal - 80+ point guy?
During his first season in Pittsburgh, Kessel played with Bonino and Hagelin. That's where the 3rd line dominated the playoffs and was known as the HBK line. Any idea what team Bonino is even playing for today? I haven't a clue.

Everything I posted was objective and taken directly from either broadcasts or hockey insiders.

Best part about your post is that your telling me I know very little... then you shoot off all the casual hockey fan knowledge, the hbk line, 3rd line... and stats.

..... so your saying because Kessel scored 80 points he can’t have bouts of ineffective play? Your also saying you can’t be lazy if you score points? That means you cannot be labeled lazy if you don’t try on defense?

He had a couple great postseasons so he’s automatically not a lazy player for the rest of his career?

• He has a poor relationship with Sullivan
• Gino gets frustrated with Kessels play
• This most recent postseason Kessel did not play well

Google them, I didn’t make any of them up.

Sounds like you’re the one who has paid no attention and not me. Or I guess you are more correct then his own linemates and coach?

He’s an incredible offensive player, with a poor attitude (the guy literally has been not well liked by every coach he’s ever had) and has bouts of lazy play. Go ahead and argue it all you want.

A #1 goalie and kapanen is a great return all things considered.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I dont like how we had to retain 1.2 mil, besides that great trade

I hated that Pittsburgh's 2016 1st round pick was conditional on them making the playoffs. I only bring that up because a week earlier at the draft when San Jose traded for Martin Jones they gave up a 1st round pick to Boston without any conditions and Jones never played a game for the Bruins, who only traded for him since the Kings didn't want to trade Jones to the Sharks.

 

[pcruz]

Everything I posted was objective and taken directly from either broadcasts or hockey insiders.

Best part about your post is that your telling me I know very little... then you shoot off all the casual hockey fan knowledge, the hbk line, 3rd line... and stats.

..... so your saying because Kessel scored 80 points he can’t have bouts of ineffective play? Your also saying you can’t be lazy if you score points? That means you cannot be labeled lazy if you don’t try on defense?

He had a couple great postseasons so he’s automatically not a lazy player for the rest of his career?

• He has a poor relationship with Sullivan
• Gino gets frustrated with Kessels play
• This most recent postseason Kessel did not play well

Google them, I didn’t make any of them up.

Sounds like you’re the one who has paid no attention and not me. Or I guess you are more correct then his own linemates and coach?

He’s an incredible offensive player, with a poor attitude (the guy literally has been not well liked by every coach he’s ever had) and has bouts of lazy play. Go ahead and argue it all you want.

A #1 goalie and kapanen is a great return all things considered.

Let me start with the #1 goalie first. The Leafs traded pick 30 and a second rounder the next year for Andersen.

If they didn’t have the Penguins’ first round pick, they would have offered pick 31 and that same second rounder.

The deal would have been made regardless.
Highlighting the Andersen move is a weak argument.



Are you in the dressing room before, during and after games? Sounds like you’ve got a lot of inside knowledge about the inner goings of the Leafs, Bruins and Penguins.

What is Geno like in more personal situations?
How about Sid?

Those insiders and experts whose opinions you regurgitate, are they Nik Kypreos and Jeff O’neill?
Maybe it was Glenn Healy.

We all know just how reliable these guys are. Aren’t the Leafs in the midst of trading Marner right now as per Kypper?


The truth is that Kessel’s laziness started off as a thing from Ron Wilson who complained that he told the coach he skated a few times during the summer. As if Kessel has ever needed to work on his skating.

That was then hammered home by the Sun and Star with articles from those Pulitzer winners Cox, Feschuck and Simmons.

The guys who did the same thing to such scrubs as Sundin, Murphy, Kaberle, Kadri, etc.

Have we forgotten Wilson and Eakens and their takes on Nazem Kadri. How he was a lazy fat slob.
Eat a bowl of carrots instead of a bag of chips was the quote if I’m not mistaken. He was a malcontent in Toronto. Woops, yet another blunder by our media. The guy’s now a 2 time 30 goal scorer and a good shut down player simultaneously.

Anyone remember all the personal baggage Kessel had according to Simmons. How all he wanted to do in the off season was go fishing in Florida? He couldn’t wait to leave this city. What a terrible example he set for all the young guys like the Nylanders of the world.

And yet, somehow after posting 3 straight point per game (or near enough) seasons, signed an 8 year extension without a threat of a hold out. What’s the going rate for 30 goal, 80 point players? He also showed just how much he hated being here by celebrating his day with the cup in the city that got rid of him, home to his former team, in another country that’s not his. Yup, true poisonous personality there. I mean, don’t all Americans bring the cup to Sick Kids when they win? He could have brought it home to Wisconsin just like everyone else does, but chose not to.
Why? To engratiate himself with his former city, one where he visits all of 2 times a year now?

 

[Beaumaris]

No.

Because this just turns into a hindsight discussion more than anything.

We knew that Kessel was good and a good playoff performer at the time of the trade.

We didn't know we were going to get Andersen at all.

Boring!

 

[LeafsNation75]

Let me start with the #1 goalie first. The Leafs traded pick 30 and a second rounder the next year for Andersen.

If they didn’t have the Penguins’ first round pick, they would have offered pick 31 and that same second rounder.

The deal would have been made regardless.
Highlighting the Andersen move is a weak argument.

I heard a report that the Flames wanted Andersen however the Ducks didn't want to trade him in the same division. I don't remember what the Flames were offering but I think it was more than what the Leafs ended up giving them to the Ducks.

 

[Antropovsky]

Let me start with the #1 goalie first. The Leafs traded pick 30 and a second rounder the next year for Andersen.

If they didn’t have the Penguins’ first round pick, they would have offered pick 31 and that same second rounder.

The deal would have been made regardless.
Highlighting the Andersen move is a weak argument.



Are you in the dressing room before, during and after games? Sounds like you’ve got a lot of inside knowledge about the inner goings of the Leafs, Bruins and Penguins.

What is Geno like in more personal situations?
How about Sid?

Those insiders and experts whose opinions you regurgitate, are they Nik Kypreos and Jeff O’neill?
Maybe it was Glenn Healy.

We all know just how reliable these guys are. Aren’t the Leafs in the midst of trading Marner right now as per Kypper?


The truth is that Kessel’s laziness started off as a thing from Ron Wilson who complained that he told the coach he skated a few times during the summer. As if Kessel has ever needed to work on his skating.

That was then hammered home by the Sun and Star with articles from those Pulitzer winners Cox, Feschuck and Simmons.

The guys who did the same thing to such scrubs as Sundin, Murphy, Kaberle, Kadri, etc.

Have we forgotten Wilson and Eakens and their takes on Nazem Kadri. How he was a lazy fat slob.
Eat a bowl of carrots instead of a bag of chips was the quote if I’m not mistaken. He was a malcontent in Toronto. Woops, yet another blunder by our media. The guy’s now a 2 time 30 goal scorer and a good shut down player simultaneously.

Anyone remember all the personal baggage Kessel had according to Simmons. How all he wanted to do in the off season was go fishing in Florida? He couldn’t wait to leave this city. What a terrible example he set for all the young guys like the Nylanders of the world.

And yet, somehow after posting 3 straight point per game (or near enough) seasons, signed an 8 year extension without a threat of a hold out. What’s the going rate for 30 goal, 80 point players? He also showed just how much he hated being here by celebrating his day with the cup in the city that got rid of him, home to his former team, in another country that’s not his. Yup, true poisonous personality there. I mean, don’t all Americans bring the cup to Sick Kids when they win? He could have brought it home to Wisconsin just like everyone else does, but chose not to.
Why? To engratiate himself with his former city, one where he visits all of 2 times a year now?

I stopped reading once you said that it started with Ron Wilson saying that Kessel didn’t skate all summer.

“Shows how much you pay attention”

It wasn’t Wilson, it wasn’t Phil Kessel that told the reporters that he did not skate all summer... and there is video of it.

Phil Kessels value diminished in Toronto because of himself... he refused to salute the fans, he is the one who repeatedly got mad at the media, he is the one who called out his coaches, he is the one who told the media he skated maybe 10 times all summer etc....

Sure if the leafs traded him the summer before, he probably would have gotten more, but they didn’t and getting what they did at the time of the trade was a great deal.

What were you expecting to get for a 61 point winger, who is out of shape and had a history of being hard to coach? Sure it’s easy to look back in hindsight and be pissed off... but a player with a fitness history like him could very well have already peaked and was on his trend downwards. There was a lot of risk involved for any team acquiring him as his long term contract was just signed.

 

[Kazparov]

The only thing I regret about trading him was the retained salary.

Now the original trade to get him on the other hand...

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

Things had gone pretty sour when we traded him, although I still felt like we should have got a little more for him. Turns out, he wasn't all that lazy and washed up.

I was sorry for how things turned out with him on the Leafs - he was a pretty special talent.

He was also a pretty decent guy. Bringing his first cup to his home in Wisconsin, then to Sick Kids right here in Toronto. That shows a lot of character. Next cup, he ate hot dogs out of it. Guy has a sense of humour too....

Anyways.... it all ended up great for us. Kapi turns out to be a pretty special talent too. And somehow.... we ended up with Anderson. Funny how it ended up just about perfect for pretty much everyone.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Things had gone pretty sour when we traded him, although I still felt like we should have got a little more for him.

One thing others might forget is among the approved teams on Kessel's trade list is that only Pittsburgh was willing to talk about trading for him. So I don't think that helped the Leafs negotiating in terms of retaining salary and everything else.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If all of these things that happened after the trade count (things like picks being traded for Andersen and stuff like that), then surely Kessel being an integral piece in winning two cups needs to be considered as well. Heck, Kessel was the Con Smyth winner on that first cup (it was given to Crosby because nhl poster child didn’t have one yet... but Kessel had a better post season).

I’m trying to imagine the leafs getting their final major piece on an already great team, winning two cups with that piece playing a major role, while having the other team retain over a million of the salary... yet still hear leafs claim we LOST the trade because of a losing what turned into a depth forward player, and picks turning into a decent goalie.

We lost that trade. In horrendous fashion.

But at the same time, it needed to be done. We were desperate to unload him, and Pittsburg sniffed out that desperation and used it to their advantage.

 

[Craig Button]

kessel won this trade.

 

[Brownbeard]

It worked out for both teams. Pittsburgh got some Cups, though, so they did best overall.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Everything I posted was objective and taken directly from either broadcasts or hockey insiders.

Best part about your post is that your telling me I know very little... then you shoot off all the casual hockey fan knowledge, the hbk line, 3rd line... and stats.

..... so your saying because Kessel scored 80 points he can’t have bouts of ineffective play? Your also saying you can’t be lazy if you score points? That means you cannot be labeled lazy if you don’t try on defense?

He had a couple great postseasons so he’s automatically not a lazy player for the rest of his career?

• He has a poor relationship with Sullivan
• Gino gets frustrated with Kessels play
• This most recent postseason Kessel did not play well

Google them, I didn’t make any of them up.

Sounds like you’re the one who has paid no attention and not me. Or I guess you are more correct then his own linemates and coach?

He’s an incredible offensive player, with a poor attitude (the guy literally has been not well liked by every coach he’s ever had) and has bouts of lazy play. Go ahead and argue it all you want.

A #1 goalie and kapanen is a great return all things considered.

Don't worry about it bro. It's a good looking trade for us. Kappy is a multi tool forward with a great work ethic and never a attitude ever plus Andy. The trade turned out pretty cool for us in hindsight!

 

[Menzinger]

It was a bad trade at the time given the context AND the additional extras the Leafs gave up.

Kapanen wasn’t anywhere near as highly regarded as he was today when thentrade happened and the Leafs gave up a 2nd round pick AND retention long term. That really killed the value. The Leafs are literally paying kessel to be a PPG on another contending team.

That said, a bit of luck given Kapanen’s development has certainly helped even things out a bit. Not to mention it helped solidify the tank for Matthews

 

[Menzinger]

It’s also insane the lack of respect that kessel still gets from some folks.

The guy is literally a beats in the playoffs and probably should have won the playoff mvp during that first Pens cup run once he joined (though understandable that they opted to give it to Crosby by a hair)

 

[Antropovsky]

It’s also insane the lack of respect that kessel still gets from some folks.

The guy is literally a beats in the playoffs and probably should have won the playoff mvp during that first Pens cup run once he joined (though understandable that they opted to give it to Crosby by a hair)

I haven’t read the entire thread, are majority of people in this thread saying he sucks? I thought it was an argument about the assets he’s gotten in return and if they matched his value at the time of trade.

My point is and always has been, sensational player, whose not perfect... who likely found the perfect marker for his personality in Pittsburgh.. playing in the shadows of their star players.

Meanwhile....

Toronto may have been his absolute worst organization to play in for his personality. He’s sensitive to criticism, and doesn’t have a great filter. In Toronto you have to have thick skin and you have to pick your words wisely or else you will put a big target on your back.

When things went bad in Toronto, kessel fell apart too, mostly due to the pressure of being the only star player on the team.

As a result his value diminished.

I’m happy he found a place to excel, i think it was vindication for a lot of us fans especially on this board who were laughed at by other fan basis for our expectations of his value in a trade. Afterwards we all were able to say I told you so.

However. Again, I’m not pissed off at the value we received in return. All things considered we got an ok deal at the time of trade, and we maximized that ok deal with the pieces we got in return.

 

[ottomaddox]

Boring!

The Gilmour Trade (Redux)
+
The Sundin Trade (Redux)
Vs
The Kessel Trade (Redux)
+
The Lupul Trade (Redux)

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Imagine if NHL trades included the option to loan NHL players. Soccer has loans. Pretty cool idea IMO.

Imagine making a deal like this: Kapanen + 1st for a 3 yr loan of Kessel, after which Kessel returns to the Leafs.

 

[Eb]

If all of these things that happened after the trade count (things like picks being traded for Andersen and stuff like that), then surely Kessel being an integral piece in winning two cups needs to be considered as well. Heck, Kessel was the Con Smyth winner on that first cup (it was given to Crosby because nhl poster child didn’t have one yet... but Kessel had a better post season).

I’m trying to imagine the leafs getting their final major piece on an already great team, winning two cups with that piece playing a major role, while having the other team retain over a million of the salary... yet still hear leafs claim we LOST the trade because of a losing what turned into a depth forward player, and picks turning into a decent goalie.

We lost that trade. In horrendous fashion.

But at the same time, it needed to be done. We were desperate to unload him, and Pittsburg sniffed out that desperation and used it to their advantage.

No one lost that trade.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

No one lost that trade.

I would say that the team that won two cups in a row as a direct result of the trade... well, they won the trade.

Sure, if Kessel was just a passenger those 2 playoff runs, then i’d agree. But he was freaking amazing. Just look at his numbers. Add that the leafs were paying part of his salary that whole time is what turns it from a mere “lost” trade, to embarrassing.

 

[Eb]

I would say that the team that won two cups in a row as a direct result of the trade... well, they won the trade.

Sure, if Kessel was just a passenger those 2 playoff runs, then i’d agree. But he was freaking amazing. Just look at his numbers. Add that the leafs were paying part of his salary that whole time is what turns it from a mere “lost” trade, to embarrassing.

Not every trade needs to have a winner and a loser

Both teams can “win” in a trade

You drink the HF kool aid it seems

 

[BM14]

I miss Phil's fat cookie eating face but I'm glad he has two cups under his belt.

At least he now has two of something under his belt..

Good trade.

For the OP, Babcock was never going to coach Cookies which is why he was jettisoned.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I would say that the team that won two cups in a row as a direct result of the trade... well, they won the trade.

Sure, if Kessel was just a passenger those 2 playoff runs, then i’d agree. But he was freaking amazing. Just look at his numbers. Add that the leafs were paying part of his salary that whole time is what turns it from a mere “lost” trade, to embarrassing.

That's really the problem. You can't definitively say Pittsburgh won those cups "as a direct result of the trade". It's certainly possible that they would not have won without him, but it's also possible that they would have won without him. It can't be proven either way. In exactly the same way, if the Leafs win the Cup a couple of times in the next three years, you can't say for sure whether it was because of the trade, or in spite of it.

It's probably a pretty safe bet that the Leafs would not have won, and would not be as good now, if they had not made the trade. But that's about as close to certain as anyone can be.

Bottom line is that it is all speculation. Which is fine, but I think anyone who "knows" who won the trade is just fooling themselves.