2019-20 Coaching Discussion: The Jon Cooper Watch

[Maelmoor]

I think the problem is that Coopers game plan only works when things go exactly as planned. When other teams interrupt the passing plays or when passes are off then the game plan falls apart. His coaching strategy is based on skill plays. When teams take that away then the players are left banging their heads against the wall.

Which coaches would not fit into that description in your mind? Fans always say that their coach is bad at adapting, even for teams that are successful. Just exchange the skill plays with X.

"His coaching strategy is based on X. When teams take that away then the players are left banging their heads against the wall"

 

[DFC]

Which coaches would not fit into that description in your mind? Fans always say that their coach is bad at adapting, even for teams that are successful. Just exchange the skill plays with X.

"His coaching strategy is based on X. When teams take that away then the players are left banging their heads against the wall"

And when teams exploit X over and over, coaches get fired.

 

[Zwui21]

The Stamkos stat (37% of his career goals were PP goals) made me think. The Lightning have notoriously been lethal on the man advantage in the past couple years. And it's a known fact that the referees swallow their whistles during the playoffs and penalties get called a lot less often. Are we too reliant on the PP? Is our mediocre 5v5 the real issue?

That's exacty it IMO

 

[CupsOverCash]

So who lasts longer? Babcock or Cooper? They had another bad loss yesterday. The Leafs could be looking for a new HC soon too. Hate to bring up the Leafs but relevant topic here.

 

[Sky04]

The only way either coach is getting canned mid-season is if their teams are sitting outside the playoffs by the All-Star break which is unlikely for both teams. Although I'm not sure how Toronto can handle another 1st round exit, I feel like Babcock has more shelf life if he can just get to the 2nd round. In Cooper's case another 1/2 or even 3rd round exit might just be enough to call it quits.

 

[Lolaimbot]

Which coaches would not fit into that description in your mind? Fans always say that their coach is bad at adapting, even for teams that are successful. Just exchange the skill plays with X.

"His coaching strategy is based on X. When teams take that away then the players are left banging their heads against the wall"

I am pretty sure that Hawks won 3 cups not only because of all the talent in the lineup but also because of Qs ability to adjust to different opponents.

 

[Master P]

So who lasts longer? Babcock or Cooper? They had another bad loss yesterday. The Leafs could be looking for a new HC soon too. Hate to bring up the Leafs but relevant topic here.

I think Babcock has a longer leash given how brutal that leafs defense is.

 

[Zwui21]

I'm not a #FireCooper guy, but I'm not happy with what he's been doing lately.
But this quote just got me angry.

 

[DFC]

The only way either coach is getting canned mid-season is if their teams are sitting outside the playoffs by the All-Star break which is unlikely for both teams. Although I'm not sure how Toronto can handle another 1st round exit, I feel like Babcock has more shelf life if he can just get to the 2nd round. In Cooper's case another 1/2 or even 3rd round exit might just be enough to call it quits.

Yeah. I think Cooper is more likely to get the ax first because our expectations are higher. If the Leafs get to the second round, they'll pretend they won a cup. Well, Babcock will get another year at least.

With Coop, I feel like it's SCF or he's gone. Maybe, maaaaaybe a hardfought ECF loss. It just feels like he's past his expiration date, not even for us fans, but in terms of "all coaches have a shelf life."

 

[Maelmoor]

I am pretty sure that Hawks won 3 cups not only because of all the talent in the lineup but also because of Qs ability to adjust to different opponents.

Coach Q had for sure a big impact in the success they had. How much that was down to his ability to adjust or not is up for debate, but what we do know is that it took him 1000 games to win his first cup, despite coaching some good teams and for Trotz it took 1500 games to win a cup. I know I've mentioned it before, but it's always worth highlighting.

 

[Lolaimbot]

Coach Q had for sure a big impact in the success they had, how much that was down to his ability to adjust or not is up for debate but what we do know is that it took him 1000 games to win his first cup, despite coaching some good teams and for Trotz it took 1500 games to win a cup. I know I've mentioned it before, but it's always worth highlighting.

True, but they also did it after a change of scenery.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Babcock is the frontrunner imo. Its been repeated on a few shows on NHL Network Radio lately that Babcock and Dubas are at odds already. Something about a press conference that Babcock made a backhanded comment about hoping (his GM) makes the team "bigger" or something like that. Add in the perceived (mis)treatment Matthews got from Babcock last season and so on. I'm only repeating what I've heard over the summer and the start of this season.

Anyway, if all that's true and you start ramping up the fans in Hockey's Mecca, it would stand to reason the torches and pitchforks get distributed alot faster up there than down here.

That said, up until recently I was firmly in the "It ain't Coop, it's certain players on this club" camp. Now I'm really starting to think that it just may be time for a change. I get the notion the sway he had in Junior (NAHL/USHL), then up in Norfolk, and here in the beginning was "Positive". He's a very likeable guy, encouraging, had your back, and motivates you thru positive willpower. He got alot out of his players with that. But, now I'm seeing a club that needs someone at the helm that'll get anyone wearing a sweater in that game's lineup to be willing to bash their ****ing head's through a wall. I don't see it. I don't see a killer mentality. No curb-stomp approach to any gameplan.

Kinda like the transition from Dungy to Gruden if you want to draw a Bucs comparison. Note: Personally that's one vessel that needs to be scuttled with all hands on deck but... I digress.

I didn't find it coincidental at all that they brought in Maroon this past summer. Just like Nate Thompson used tag around with Boucher. I'm not complaining for sure, but its clear to me they brought in a "Coach's Guy" with some sand (and bringing back Witko). This should either get them over the top and motivate certain guys or signal all hope is lost with this staff and a change is required.

Got that off my chest finally. Now it becomes, be careful what you wish for because right now I don't see anybody who's out there (or potentially will be) that can do the job. Richards would only be the lone voice and that's all. I can't find anything with him that makes him better than Cooper.

Coop goes, they all gotta go. With the right replacement(s) ready at the jump.

/rant

 

[Sky04]

Can you imagine if they both go and then get hired by each team respectively?

 

[DFC]

Babcock is the frontrunner imo. Its been repeated on a few shows on NHL Network Radio lately that Babcock and Dubas are at odds already. Something about a press conference that Babcock made a backhanded comment about hoping (his GM) makes the team "bigger" or something like that. Add in the perceived (mis)treatment Matthews got from Babcock last season and so on. I'm only repeating what I've heard over the summer and the start of this season.

Anyway, if all that's true and you start ramping up the fans in Hockey's Mecca, it would stand to reason the torches and pitchforks get distributed alot faster up there than down here.

That said, up until recently I was firmly in the "It ain't Coop, it's certain players on this club" camp. Now I'm really starting to think that it just may be time for a change. I get the notion the sway he had in Junior (NAHL/USHL), then up in Norfolk, and here in the beginning was "Positive". He's a very likeable guy, encouraging, had your back, and motivates you thru positive willpower. He got alot out of his players with that. But, now I'm seeing a club that needs someone at the helm that'll get anyone wearing a sweater in that game's lineup to be willing to bash their ****ing head's through a wall. I don't see it. I don't see a killer mentality. No curb-stomp approach to any gameplan.

Kinda like the transition from Dungy to Gruden if you want to draw a Bucs comparison. Note: Personally that's one vessel that needs to be scuttled with all hands on deck but... I digress.

I didn't find it coincidental at all that they brought in Maroon this past summer. Just like Nate Thompson used tag around with Boucher. I'm not complaining for sure, but its clear to me they brought in a "Coach's Guy" with some sand (and bringing back Witko). This should either get them over the top and motivate certain guys or signal all hope is lost with this staff and a change is required.

Got that off my chest finally. Now it becomes, be careful what you wish for because right now I don't see anybody who's out there (or potentially will be) that can do the job. Richards would only be the lone voice and that's all. I can't find anything with him that makes him better than Cooper.

Coop goes, they all gotta go. With the right replacement(s) ready at the jump.

/rant

I think positivity is great... until the team gets too comfortable. I don't think this team WANTS to be too comfortable; I just think their instinct is to give 70% because one of the other stars will take care of it, or because Vasy's got their backs.

Even last year, many of us noticed we stopped playing hard at around Christmas time and coasted to a lot of wins. Because we were so skilled, we could do that. ...Unfortunately, giving 70% against a John Tortorella team, or a Barry Trotz team, is going to make you look like lazy fools.

And that's where I think we run into a problem. Aside from Xs and Os, which I think are the biggest problem (it's been years since we've won a lot of games because of a system we've stuck to, as opposed to one player or another putting up a heroic effort, or, well, the PP), I think the players are just flat-out too comfortable with Cooper. Coaches in years past didn't even speak to players directly--communication went through their assistant coaches, thus setting up a Good Cop/Bad Cop situation. Head coaches with a lot of success are very often the Bad Cop. Maybe there's more to Cooper than meets the eye, but I don't think he has that side to him. And, at least as of right now, it appears that our team really needs a Bad Cop coach to get them in line, and get them playing with some consistency.

 

[Major4Boarding]

I think positivity is great... until the team gets too comfortable. I don't think this team WANTS to be too comfortable; I just think their instinct is to give 70% because one of the other stars will take care of it, or because Vasy's got their backs.

Even last year, many of us noticed we stopped playing hard at around Christmas time and coasted to a lot of wins. Because we were so skilled, we could do that. ...Unfortunately, giving 70% against a John Tortorella team, or a Barry Trotz team, is going to make you look like lazy fools.

And that's where I think we run into a problem. Aside from Xs and Os, which I think are the biggest problem (it's been years since we've won a lot of games because of a system we've stuck to, as opposed to one player or another putting up a heroic effort, or, well, the PP), I think the players are just flat-out too comfortable with Cooper. Coaches in years past didn't even speak to players directly--communication went through their assistant coaches, thus setting up a Good Cop/Bad Cop situation. Head coaches with a lot of success are very often the Bad Cop. Maybe there's more to Cooper than meets the eye, but I don't think he has that side to him. And, at least as of right now, it appears that our team really needs a Bad Cop coach to get them in line, and get them playing with some consistency.

Then Coop needs to come out one post-game media scrum and turn full heel

 

[Felonious Python]

I think positivity is great... until the team gets too comfortable. I don't think this team WANTS to be too comfortable; I just think their instinct is to give 70% because one of the other stars will take care of it, or because Vasy's got their backs.

Even last year, many of us noticed we stopped playing hard at around Christmas time and coasted to a lot of wins. Because we were so skilled, we could do that. ...Unfortunately, giving 70% against a John Tortorella team, or a Barry Trotz team, is going to make you look like lazy fools.

And that's where I think we run into a problem. Aside from Xs and Os, which I think are the biggest problem (it's been years since we've won a lot of games because of a system we've stuck to, as opposed to one player or another putting up a heroic effort, or, well, the PP), I think the players are just flat-out too comfortable with Cooper. Coaches in years past didn't even speak to players directly--communication went through their assistant coaches, thus setting up a Good Cop/Bad Cop situation. Head coaches with a lot of success are very often the Bad Cop. Maybe there's more to Cooper than meets the eye, but I don't think he has that side to him. And, at least as of right now, it appears that our team really needs a Bad Cop coach to get them in line, and get them playing with some consistency.

I was thinking yesterday about how you never hear that a professional hockey coach isn't a 'player's coach'. I don't even know what the alternative is. Is it a 'coach's coach' or just 'not a player's coach'?

Head coaches do need to be asses sometimes.

 

[These Are The Days]

Can you imagine if they both go and then get hired by each team respectively?

Yes and I would froth at the mouth at the opportunity to play them in the playoffs. That team is so soft that the Letterkenny Boys came up with the phrase "10 ply" after watching a Leafs game. I think Babcock is overrated to all hell but I have no question he'd get the job done with us and would slaughter the Cooper-led Leafs. His structure is a bitch with a capital B to play against and come playoff time with Hedman and McDonagh getting probably 50-55 minutes of any given night combined good luck getting anything done against us if Vasy is having a particularly great night.

 

[These Are The Days]

Then Coop needs to come out one post-game media scrum and turn full heel

I guess it could work. Considering he has the charisma of a hotdog he could spend some time out in the Tampa sun or get tips from Hogan on how to look like one too

 

[DFC]

I was thinking yesterday about how you never hear that a professional hockey coach isn't a 'player's coach'. I don't even know what the alternative is. Is it a 'coach's coach' or just 'not a player's coach'?

Head coaches do need to be asses sometimes.

I think Babcock isn't a player's coach. Trotz. Tortorella for sure.

I'm not so sure that the theory that said coaches in the new age need to be softer really panned out. Even the coaches who are former players are kind of hard@sses.

 

[DFC]

Then Coop needs to come out one post-game media scrum and turn full heel

Might be too late. But it would win a few of us over for sure.

I think there are a lot of signs that the team is just too comfortable with him. If he ever did have a strategy that could win, and I'm skeptical of that, then he probably missed his window.

 

[DFC]

Can you imagine if they both go and then get hired by each team respectively?

Didn't that happen with Vignealt and Torts?

It kind of feels like they'd each be a better fit with the other team. Babcock is better, or so we assume, with a veteran group, and Cooper motivates young guys coming into their own.

 

[Felonious Python]

I think Babcock isn't a player's coach. Trotz. Tortorella for sure.

I'm not so sure that the theory that said coaches in the new age need to be softer really panned out. Even the coaches who are former players are kind of hard@sses.

Coaches do, or at least should be 'softer' (not abusive) than super old school coaches. You can't call a specific player out in the dressing room and demean him.

What you can do is yell at the room. The guys who know it's not directed at them understand that, while the guys who need to be yelled at, get yelled at. Sometimes there will be a crossed wire, but you can correct those as they come.

 

[These Are The Days]

You beat Boston Coop. I is an happy fan right now. Much more faith bestowed onto you sir

 

[Coopers Gum]

Coop lives to die another day.

 

[DFC]

You beat Boston Coop. I is an happy fan right now. Much more faith bestowed onto you sir

The fact that we can play like this once in a while only reinforces that the team is way too comfortable phoning games in. We need to see this kind of effort with some consistency, and then we need to see it in the playoffs.

We also need to see it against a team determined to trap us to death, rather than skate with us.