The Jarmo Thread

[Viqsi]

To add onto that, I was looking through Jarmos recent draft picks... and they really aren’t that great for a “draft wizard” Keep in mind we have had 8 first round picks, 7 second round, 7 third round picks since he came here. 2013/14 were especially bad.

Are you setting your expectations for the draft based on what everyone else in the NHL has pulled off in that time, or is it based off of "He's supposed to be a wizard, therefore MOAR SHINIES"? Because 2013 and 2014 barely qualify as below average, and 2015 is a tour-de-f***ing-force. People have wild fantasies about drafting half your defense in a single year.

The "let's see what we have" gamble this offseason is looking pretty bad now, to be sure, but that doesn't mean we need to start trash-retconning everything in defiance of the historical record.

 

[koteka]

Have you ever looked at the 2013 draft?

2013 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

Wennberg has more points than everyone picked after him. Everyone. Rest of 1st round, and all of the other rounds. 3rd rounder Jake Guentzel has more points than anyone else picked after Wennberg.

Bjorkstrand is one of the few good forwards not picked at the top of the 1st round.

Only 12 first rounders in 2013 and no second round picks have more points than much traveled former Jacket and 2013 3rd round pick Anthony Duclair.

It is unfortunate for the franchise that 2013 was the draft when we had 3 first round picks.

 

[EspenK]

The draft is a crap shoot. I don't think Jarmo has sucked at that but he hasn't been a star either. Marko Dano, Ryan Collins are shaky picks especially trading up for Collins. Other than that no glaring bomers and some nice picks (hopefully) Tex, Gavrikov, Peeke, et al.

My big beef with him is he seems to be stuck on this roster as something special and trusting the goal to two untested guys was none too bright to my way of thinking. Also tolerating a crappy pp for two seasons. And for whatever, if any, part he plays in keeping Wennberg around and not doing anything to strengthen the obvious weakness at C. Not signing Lehner probably a big mistake; not being reported as having interest in him inexcusable.

 

[Viqsi]

The draft is a crap shoot. I don't think Jarmo has sucked at that but he hasn't been a star either. Marko Dano, Ryan Collins are shaky picks especially trading up for Collins. Other than that no glaring bomers and some nice picks (hopefully) Tex, Gavrikov, Peeke, et al.

My big beef with him is he seems to be stuck on this roster as something special and trusting the goal to two untested guys was none too bright to my way of thinking. Also tolerating a crappy pp for two seasons. And for whatever, if any, part he plays in keeping Wennberg around and not doing anything to strengthen the obvious weakness at C. Not signing Lehner probably a big mistake; not being reported as having interest in him inexcusable.

I disagree with some details here (in particular, I think the goaltending gamble made some sense at the time, no matter how ugly it's looking right now), but by and large that's fair.

 

[majormajor]

My big beef with him is he seems to be stuck on this roster as something special and trusting the goal to two untested guys was none too bright to my way of thinking. Also tolerating a crappy pp for two seasons. And for whatever, if any, part he plays in keeping Wennberg around and not doing anything to strengthen the obvious weakness at C. Not signing Lehner probably a big mistake; not being reported as having interest in him inexcusable.

I disagree with some details here (in particular, I think the goaltending gamble made some sense at the time, no matter how ugly it's looking right now), but by and large that's fair.

I thought it was mostly fair except for the "keeping Wennberg around" lament, as if his presence has been a big detriment. This year it has not. If Jarmo chose Wennberg over some better option, that would be something, but we have no evidence of that.

For the two-unproven-goalies part, I'm your polar opposite Viqsi. I thought it was a foolish risk at the time, and though it hasn't looked good, Korpi has been keeping the Jackets in a lot of games, I'm not convinced he can't do the job. Elvis might be fine in the end too.

Jarmo acceded to Elvis' terms last Spring, and that makes my list of Jarmo's follies. Kid doesn't want to get North American game experience, thinks he's too good for the AHL? Okay, stay in Lugano. We'll run with Korpi and Lehner/veteran. Even if Elvis adjusts soon, I don't like the move. The org needs to have standards.

I'll agree with the PP critique. It's beyond time for Jarmo to take the PP away from Torts. It's been beyond time for a year plus now.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Have you ever looked at the 2013 draft?

2013 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com



It is unfortunate for the franchise that 2013 was the draft when we had 3 first round picks.

If the draft were truly regarded as being "weak", then why wouldn't a GM trade at least one (and preferably two) of his first round picks?

 

[JacketsDavid]

My big beef with him is he seems to be stuck on this roster as something special and trusting the goal to two untested guys was none too bright to my way of thinking. Also tolerating a crappy pp for two seasons.

I think a lot of GMs get into that problem. Those guys by nature are egomaniacs who think they are smarter than everyone else therefore as they are drafting or signing free agents they rarely say "well this is the best I can do, let's take him", rather they think "within our team this guy can get better"
You can read every pblication and it's very rare for a GM to ever be talking about rebuilding, it's not in their nature.

 

[thebus88]

I thought it was mostly fair except for the "keeping Wennberg around" lament, as if his presence has been a big detriment. This year it has not. If Jarmo chose Wennberg over some better option, that would be something, but we have no evidence of that.

Where does Wennberg being a healthy scratch during the teams most crucial and successful stretches at the end of last year fit into this??

I know you will say, "yes, THIS year!!", but really, not much has changed AT ALL with him as a player or his (positive) impact on the team as a player. It doesn't matter/I don't care what the numbers say, because you ALWAYS claim the numbers say something positive, like you do when he's playing like dogshit/and or a dog scared of his own shadow, like last year, and the VAST majority of his entire NHL career.... IMO of course.

How is one able to show they are a better option? How or what "evidence" is or could be possibly available?

There is a REAL correlation between the team not playing well/not performing well/not getting results while Wennberg plays such a big role on the team. Whether this on Jarmo or Torts or both, I do not know.

 

[thebus88]

If the draft were truly regarded as being "weak", then why wouldn't a GM trade at least one (and preferably two) of his first round picks?

Sometimes you cant predict how drafts and prospects will turn out.

Sometimes.

 

[majormajor]

If the draft were truly regarded as being "weak", then why wouldn't a GM trade at least one (and preferably two) of his first round picks?

It's regarded as weak now. It wasn't then. I remember comparisons were drawn between 2013 and 2003, indicating several star players were expected to be had throughout the first round.

 

[EDM]

Even this year the appearance of a “new” Wennberg appears to have been short lived. He seems to slipped back into his passive, non aggressive offense style rather quickly.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

It's regarded as weak now. It wasn't then. I remember comparisons were drawn between 2013 and 2003, indicating several star players were expected to be had throughout the first round.

That's all well and good. But Jarmo is supposed to know more than you. Kerby Rychel was a dud from day 1 and Dano has turned out to be an AHLer. And Wennberg...........

Jarmo's analysis and decision making with these 3 first round picks was not good. He's just not as good at drafting as his reputation on this board is-except for lesser known Europeans. Ultimately he'll be back in Europe as a GM in one of their mediocre leagues or a European scout for an NHL team.

 

[majormajor]

That's all well and good. But Jarmo is supposed to know more than you. Kerby Rychel was a dud from day 1 and Dano has turned out to be an AHLer. And Wennberg...........
.

I'm not talking about what I thought about that draft, these were the views on that draft by the professional prognosticators and the publicly polled scouts.

Jarmo's analysis and decision making with these 3 first round picks was not good. He's just not as good at drafting as his reputation on this board is-except for lesser known Europeans. Ultimately he'll be back in Europe as a GM in one of their mediocre leagues or a European scout for an NHL team.

I think you're on an island here. If he loses his job he'll be on the short lists for other NHL GM openings immediately.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I'm not talking about what I thought about that draft, these were the views on that draft by the professional prognosticators and the publicly polled scouts.



I think you're on an island here. If he loses his job he'll be on the short lists for other NHL GM openings immediately.

If that's the excuse that you're using for him, then you must be of the mind that anyone can be a GM. Because if the "prognosticators" think something's good, then anyone who follows them is off the hook. Your "evidence" of draft strength is pretty weak. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Jarmo completely struck out on two first rounders and really did on Wennberg as well.

To the second point, I hope we can find out next off season whether you or I am right about his future.

 

[Viqsi]

If that's the excuse that you're using for him, then you must be of the mind that anyone can be a GM. Because if the "prognosticators" think something's good, then anyone who follows them is off the hook. Your "evidence" of draft strength is pretty weak. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Jarmo completely struck out on two first rounders and really did on Wennberg as well.

I think it's more the suggestion that majority opinion seemed to be that that was going to be a decent draft, and in hindsight it's turned out to be pretty weak - the broader point being that that's not something that can necessarily be held against Kekalainen in particular.

 

[majormajor]

If that's the excuse that you're using for him, then you must be of the mind that anyone can be a GM. Because if the "prognosticators" think something's good, then anyone who follows them is off the hook. Your "evidence" of draft strength is pretty weak. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Jarmo completely struck out on two first rounders and really did on Wennberg as well.

No that does not follow from what I said. And I'm sick of doing your homework for you, if you want hard evidence of what people said about the draft at the time go research that.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

No that does not follow from what I said. And I'm sick of doing your homework for you, if you want hard evidence of what people said about the draft at the time go research that.

You throw out things without providing info. Even if you throw out some anecdotal "evidence" of a strong draft, Jarmo made the decision to not trade his picks or draft better players. On him. Totally.

 

[Long Live Lyle]

You throw out things without providing info. Even if you throw out some anecdotal "evidence" of a strong draft, Jarmo made the decision to not trade his picks or draft better players. On him. Totally.

He was able to turn Dano (along with Anisimov) eventually into Artemi Panarin. That’s a pretty solid ROI. Even Rychel was able to be traded for a legitimate NHLer.

 

[majormajor]

You throw out things without providing info. Even if you throw out some anecdotal "evidence" of a strong draft, Jarmo made the decision to not trade his picks or draft better players. On him. Totally.

No we don't know that. For all we know Jarmo and the other GMs figured belatedly that it was not as good a draft as had been hyped, and he tried to trade some of the 1sts, but it being the new opinion of the other GMs that it was a weak draft, the picks weren't fetching much. Shit we don't know.

He was able to turn Dano (along with Anisimov) eventually into Artemi Panarin. That’s a pretty solid ROI. Even Rychel was able to be traded for a legitimate NHLer.

Those don't count, because that's taking advantage of a bad GM.

Cyclones has obviously constructed a game that Jarmo has no way of winning.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

He was able to turn Dano (along with Anisimov) eventually into Artemi Panarin. That’s a pretty solid ROI. Even Rychel was able to be traded for a legitimate NHLer.

Stan Bowman lost his mind for a few years. From what I've read, Toews was really keen on getting the band back together and wanted Saad. Signing Seabrook for 8 years with a bonus laden contract.

I'd put a large amount of money on the Panarin deal being initiated by Bowman and not the Finn. As well as the Hartwell for Umgarbage deal being initiated by the Hextall.

Jarmo took advantage of gifts. No particular genius in doing that.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

No we don't know that. For all we know Jarmo and the other GMs figured belatedly that it was not as good a draft as had been hyped, and he tried to trade some of the 1sts, but it being the new opinion of the other GMs that it was a weak draft, the picks weren't fetching much. **** we don't know.



Those don't count, because that's taking advantage of a bad GM.

Cyclones has obviously constructed a game that Jarmo has no way of winning.

The oddball Panarin deal and Hartnell deals were gifts initiated by the other GM. You can almost bank on that.

Good job on your projections for the CBJ this season! Are your rose colored glasses still all fogged up

 

[cslebn]

2013 NHL Mock Draft: Sam Cosentino's 30 picks - Sportsnet.ca

Popular opinion says the 2013 NHL Draft is the deepest in years, possibly the best since 2003 that featured the likes of Nathan Horton, Jeff Carter, Ryan Getzlaf, Corey Perry, Patrice Bergeron and Shea Weber. While most draft prognosticators have similar selections amongst the top 15, things really start to get interesting after that.
Of the scouts I spoke to, many of them feel as if there are several gems to be had from 15-50, and some teams will be surprised as to what’s available to them when their picks come around.

FWIW, he predicted we'd get Wennberg, Lazar and Dauphin. Other predictors had Wennberg as high as 11. Rychel was also highly rated.

For your hind sight glasses, Shinkaruk was the big faller.

 

[cslebn]

That's all well and good. But Jarmo is supposed to know more than you. Kerby Rychel was a dud from day 1 and Dano has turned out to be an AHLer. And Wennberg...........

Jarmo's analysis and decision making with these 3 first round picks was not good. He's just not as good at drafting as his reputation on this board is-except for lesser known Europeans. Ultimately he'll be back in Europe as a GM in one of their mediocre leagues or a European scout for an NHL team.

Is Wennber g a failure to develop? A Failure to draft? A failure per draft pedigree?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Is Wennber g a failure to develop? A Failure to draft? A failure per draft pedigree?

When Wennberg hasn't been given huge minutes, his offensive numbers aren't very good and when they've been higher than his norm, they don't justify his TOI. He was a bad draft pick.

They missed on him on intangibles is my guess. He's soft and his compete level is weak. He has a game which is pass first/second/third which will ultimately be rendered ineffectual when it became a known quality. A good scouting staff would have identified these terrible characteristics and avoided him.

 

[cslebn]

When Wennberg hasn't been given huge minutes, his offensive numbers aren't very good and when they've been higher than his norm, they don't justify his TOI. He was a bad draft pick.

They missed on him on intangibles is my guess. He's soft and his compete level is weak. He has a game which is pass first/second/third which will ultimately be rendered ineffectual when it became a known quality. A good scouting staff would have identified these terrible characteristics and avoided him.

I think the pass first was known about him. Note, he did have 20g and then 26g (16g against men in the SHL, and only 5 A in the SHL) his two years before being drafted, so it's not like he was a slouch. That's why I wonder if the criticism should really be draft vs. develop.

In the past the forum seems to have dumped on him more for being rushed and gifted a spot in the lineup. Do you then blame the GM for the draft, the GM for promoting him (assuming with coach input), or the coach who plays him up the lineup?