The Jarmo Report Card Part Deux or How About that Nathan Horton Fiasco

[JacketsDavid]

From what I understand it was a first for Clarkson and a 2nd to NOT select Anderson or Korpisalo.

I think it was all one deal with expansion consideration being to pick Wild Bill instead of Anderson and the goalie.

https://www.tsn.ca/columbus-sends-clarkson-first-rounder-to-vegas-1.785776

 

[CBJWerenski8]

I think it was all one deal with expansion consideration being to pick Wild Bill instead of Anderson and the goalie.

https://www.tsn.ca/columbus-sends-clarkson-first-rounder-to-vegas-1.785776

And Johnson.

 

[thebus88]

I never know who to blame for that mess. Jarmo, JD, Priest, McConnell? Someone made the decision not to in sure that contract. The CBJ hasn't had real good luck with high priced UFA's.

EDIT: Sorry for the formatting difficulties

What about the dude who had a "messed up" back that apparently didn't tell any of these guys about how BAD it might just actually BE? If they had any questions about his "health", the contract would have been insured. His "back injury" didn't just happen 'out of the blue'.

I'm still not confident Karlsson would be the player he's regarded as being now if he were still a CBJ.

He more than likely wont be regarded as the same player he is now after this season. Reality is somewhere in between HF's perception of him from 16/17 and last year.

We were ALWAYS going to lose a GOOD player.

 

[major major]

I think it was all same trade with a first and a third sent to Vegas for Clarkson and Vegas had to select Wild Bill. Best I can tell it's all same deal?

Same deal, but separate price. A 2nd rounder for taking Bill instead of Anderson, Korpisalo, and JJ, and a 1st rounder for taking Clarkson.

It's like if I go to the store and buy a bag of nuts for $12 and a hand of bananas for $1. I wasted my money, but don't blame the bananas. There is no "Horton/Clarkson/Karlsson debacle".

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Same deal, but separate price. A 2nd rounder for taking Bill instead of Anderson, Korpisalo, and JJ, and a 1st rounder for taking Clarkson.

It's like if I go to the store and buy a bag of nuts for $12 and a hand of bananas for $1. I wasted my money, but don't blame the bananas. There is no "Horton/Clarkson/Karlsson debacle".

Not exactly. It's like buying a used car for $5k without having a mechanic look at it and then having the engine and transmission blow on it after driving it 1000 miles. Then you need another car. So instead of being out for $5k, you're out for $5k and the cost of the next car. I would have cost myself $5k for my negligence.

Had the Horton mess not happened, then there wouldn't be a need for a Clarkson deal. So instead of having to give Vegas a first for Clarkson, the CBJ would have had more assets (that first that they needed to get rid of Clarkson/Horton-the equivalent of the car buyer's blown $5k) to protect their existing assets (Karlsson, et al.). They ended up out a first round pick because of the Horton disaster and that had implications in the Vegas transactions.

So, yes. There was a Horton/Clarkson/Karlsson disaster. Pretty obvious and straightforward linkage.

 

[Viqsi]

Not exactly. It's like buying a used car fro $5k without having a mechanic look at it and then having the engine and transmission blow on it. Then you need another car. So instead of being out for $5k, you're out for $5k and the cost of the next car. I would have cost myself $5k for my negligence.

Had the Horton mess not happened, then there wouldn't be a need for a Clarkson deal. So instead of having to give Vegas a first for Clarkson, the CBJ would have had more assets to protect their existing assets. They ended up out a first round pick because of the Horton disaster and that had implications in the Vegas transactions.

So, yes. There was a Horton/Clarkson/Karlsson disaster. Pretty obvious and straightforward linkage.

This is a reasonable way of pointing out that the Horton/Clarkson cases are linked. It fails utterly, however, to draw a similar link with Karlsson, which I think was the primary point of that assertion.

 

[thebus88]

Just look at it as 5.5 million dollars of LITERAL wasted cap money for years, and the fact that they then had to trade a 1st rounder for another team to take the dead cap.

We were always going to have to expose a good young player or pay up to protect all of them.

Why will nobody else direct ANY sort of "blame" towards Horton?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Just look at it as 5.5 million dollars of LITERAL wasted cap money for years, and the fact that they then had to trade a 1st rounder for another team to take the dead cap.

We were always going to have to expose a good young player or pay up to protect all of them.

Why will nobody else direct ANY sort of "blame" towards Horton?

I don't know if Horton was or wasn't up front about his back/health with the CBJ. It's certainly a possibility that he didn't divulge his health issues completely. I don't know what is reasonable for a team to do with respect to medical evaluations and I don't know what the CBJ did or didn't do with their health vetting of Horton. Obviously it wasn't enough or pre existing issues which could have had long term implications couldn't be determined through normal medical evaluations.

That being said, it's caveat emptor (buyer is responsible) when one is signing a player with known health problems to a long term, rich contract.

But, if Horton didn't disclose the full extent of his health issues it doesn't say much about his or his agent's character. If he knew he was damaged goods and didn't tell the CBJ, it would void the contract-in my world. But it's not my world. And I doubt the answer to that (what Horton did or didn't divulge or have knowledge of during the negotiations )will ever be publicly known.

 

[Monk]

He more than likely wont be regarded as the same player he is now after this season. Reality is somewhere in between HF's perception of him from 16/17 and last year.

We were ALWAYS going to lose a GOOD player.

I totally agree. I think that's true of LVGK in general.

 

[mikeyp24]

He gets an A

 

[Mayor Bee]

I don't know if Horton was or wasn't up front about his back/health with the CBJ. It's certainly a possibility that he didn't divulge his health issues completely. I don't know what is reasonable for a team to do with respect to medical evaluations and I don't know what the CBJ did or didn't do with their health vetting of Horton. Obviously it wasn't enough or pre existing issues which could have had long term implications couldn't be determined through normal medical evaluations.

That being said, it's caveat emptor (buyer is responsible) when one is signing a player with known health problems to a long term, rich contract.

But, if Horton didn't disclose the full extent of his health issues it doesn't say much about his or his agent's character. If he knew he was damaged goods and didn't tell the CBJ, it would void the contract-in my world. But it's not my world. And I doubt the answer to that (what Horton did or didn't divulge or have knowledge of during the negotiations )will ever be publicly known.

Consider that in his career to that point, Horton had played 82 games twice in ten seasons.

Consider that he'd played another 50 playoff games in the previous three seasons, one of which he was knocked out of with a major concussion.

Consider that players who play the type of game that he does tend to fall apart prematurely.

Consider that it was widely known that he needed a complete shoulder reconstruction before entering free agency, meaning that he'd miss at least half of his first season no matter where he went.

And then consider that someone, knowing all of that, still decided that insuring the largest free agent contract in franchise history was not necessary.

 

[major major]

Just out today, Pronman has the Jackets with the third best U23 core in the league. That's pretty good marks for Jarmo, especially considering that the two teams ahead of the Jackets, Buffalo and Edmonton, have had the benefit of drafting at the top repeatedly.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Consider that in his career to that point, Horton had played 82 games twice in ten seasons.

Consider that he'd played another 50 playoff games in the previous three seasons, one of which he was knocked out of with a major concussion.

Consider that players who play the type of game that he does tend to fall apart prematurely.

Consider that it was widely known that he needed a complete shoulder reconstruction before entering free agency, meaning that he'd miss at least half of his first season no matter where he went.

And then consider that someone, knowing all of that, still decided that insuring the largest free agent contract in franchise history was not necessary.

I liked one of your posts. Take a screen shot for posterity's sake.

I may have been the FOs most vocal critic on this board for their unforgivable failure to do the ridiculously obvious-insure Horton's contract.

Even if Horton didn't give full disclosure (which I have no idea whether he did or didn't-I just acknowledged someone's point by saying he may not have) and even if Horton had never missed a game due to injury prior to joining the CBJ, insuring his contract should have been a forgone conclusion given that it represented the largest financial commitment to a player in the organIzation.

It would really be interesting to see who made the call not to insure the contract. Could have been Priest. Could have been JD. Could have been Jarmo. They'll probably all blame Chris MacFarland.

 

[Viqsi]

Consider that in his career to that point, Horton had played 82 games twice in ten seasons.

Consider that he'd played another 50 playoff games in the previous three seasons, one of which he was knocked out of with a major concussion.

Consider that players who play the type of game that he does tend to fall apart prematurely.

Consider that it was widely known that he needed a complete shoulder reconstruction before entering free agency, meaning that he'd miss at least half of his first season no matter where he went.

And then consider that someone, knowing all of that, still decided that insuring the largest free agent contract in franchise history was not necessary.

There is no question that that was an incredibly stupid move. I would, however, argue that in the balance of things it's not had as large of an impact as we feared. (Unless we really wanted to draft Kristian Vesalainen.)

 

[JacketsDavid]

There is no question that that was an incredibly stupid move. I would, however, argue that in the balance of things it's not had as large of an impact as we feared. (Unless we really wanted to draft Kristian Vesalainen.)

From what I recall about the move - Horton was coming off from a shoulder issue so that part of his body could not be insured. From there it was a decision by CBJ management to not insure rest. No one was ever fired so it tells me (and again just IMO) it was a decision by those far up in organization, not an oversight by an attorney or AGM level.
It was at the time the biggest contract the CBJ had ever done so no idea why they didn't insure it. It's like buying a $1M house, not having insurance on it, then a fire occurs and not having enough money to rebuild it so you're left with a vacant lot.
IMO the trade for Clarkson was just trying to bury/hide the evidence in the hope that Clarkson would at least be a useful 3rd-4th line forward. It was a god send for Toronto who was stuck with it, and we can see now what they are able to do with the roster flexibility (since they have plenty of cash it's not an issue for them).
Then once Clarkson got hurt we had insurance but the CBJ again figured out they needed more flexibility and gave up a first to Vegas. Vegas surely likes the deal they got a 40 goal scorer, then they flipped the 1st round pick for a guy picked 13 overall, and eventually ended up in the SCF.

So I would disagree on the impact. Until last season we had a large chunk of money tied up for 4 seasons in a guy who couldn't play or for a season a guy playing 8 minutes on the 4th line.
Also by our oversight it's allowed Toronto to make rapid changes to their roster and we played a significant role in Vegas making a run to the SCF.

 

[EspenK]

Ugh!

C'mon season.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

Horton-Clarkson was a clear, indefensible mistake. End of story.

I don't fault him too much for Karlsson though. Good for Wild Bill. But I don't even think he and Vegas saw last season coming. Anderson's a good player with some ceiling to spare.

 

[Viqsi]

From what I recall about the move - Horton was coming off from a shoulder issue so that part of his body could not be insured. From there it was a decision by CBJ management to not insure rest. No one was ever fired so it tells me (and again just IMO) it was a decision by those far up in organization, not an oversight by an attorney or AGM level.
It was at the time the biggest contract the CBJ had ever done so no idea why they didn't insure it. It's like buying a $1M house, not having insurance on it, then a fire occurs and not having enough money to rebuild it so you're left with a vacant lot.
IMO the trade for Clarkson was just trying to bury/hide the evidence in the hope that Clarkson would at least be a useful 3rd-4th line forward. It was a god send for Toronto who was stuck with it, and we can see now what they are able to do with the roster flexibility (since they have plenty of cash it's not an issue for them).
Then once Clarkson got hurt we had insurance but the CBJ again figured out they needed more flexibility and gave up a first to Vegas. Vegas surely likes the deal they got a 40 goal scorer, then they flipped the 1st round pick for a guy picked 13 overall, and eventually ended up in the SCF.

So I would disagree on the impact. Until last season we had a large chunk of money tied up for 4 seasons in a guy who couldn't play or for a season a guy playing 8 minutes on the 4th line.
Also by our oversight it's allowed Toronto to make rapid changes to their roster and we played a significant role in Vegas making a run to the SCF.

Um. That "flexibility" basically went unused until the year that Clarkson ended up on LTIR himself. Indeed, Nathan Horton has played more games as a Blue Jacket than Clarkson.

 

[major major]

From what I recall about the move - Horton was coming off from a shoulder issue so that part of his body could not be insured. From there it was a decision by CBJ management to not insure rest. No one was ever fired so it tells me (and again just IMO) it was a decision by those far up in organization, not an oversight by an attorney or AGM level.
It was at the time the biggest contract the CBJ had ever done so no idea why they didn't insure it. It's like buying a $1M house, not having insurance on it, then a fire occurs and not having enough money to rebuild it so you're left with a vacant lot.
IMO the trade for Clarkson was just trying to bury/hide the evidence in the hope that Clarkson would at least be a useful 3rd-4th line forward. It was a god send for Toronto who was stuck with it, and we can see now what they are able to do with the roster flexibility (since they have plenty of cash it's not an issue for them).
Then once Clarkson got hurt we had insurance but the CBJ again figured out they needed more flexibility and gave up a first to Vegas. Vegas surely likes the deal they got a 40 goal scorer, then they flipped the 1st round pick for a guy picked 13 overall, and eventually ended up in the SCF.

So I would disagree on the impact. Until last season we had a large chunk of money tied up for 4 seasons in a guy who couldn't play or for a season a guy playing 8 minutes on the 4th line.
Also by our oversight it's allowed Toronto to make rapid changes to their roster and we played a significant role in Vegas making a run to the SCF.

FFS, that had nothing to do with the Clarkson debacle. You miss Viqsi's point - the cost for unloading Clarkson was a 1st round pick, plain and simple.

 

[mikeyp24]

And then consider that someone, knowing all of that, still decided that insuring the largest free agent contract in franchise history was not necessary.

Thats something the GM has to get approved through ownership. Blame them not Jarmo. If you know much about how gms work and how they have to talk to owners about spending extra cash especially in non big markets. Stuff like that isnt in the cqp and is extra money and ownership took a risk that didnt pay off. In the end the team was no worse off then before him. They moved him for clarkson which was a good move dumping a dead contract for a grinder then traded Clarkson and their 1st (which was going to be used to draft Tex anyways Jarmo said in an interview so hurt us 0) to not draft 3 of our best young players.

The Horton/Clarkson deal literally had 0 negative or positive effects on the franchise. People want to whine about Karlson but there is less then a 2% chance he ever comes within 10 goals of that total here. Guys that are fantastic goal scorers like Panarin and Cam dont hit those numbers. You are delusional if you think he ever played higher then PLD and Wenni and any offensive role. He got lucky and had the best personal situation for him you can honestly have.

 

[Viqsi]

Thats something the GM has to get approved through ownership. Blame them not Jarmo. If you know much about how gms work and how they have to talk to owners about spending extra cash especially in non big markets. Stuff like that isnt in the cqp and is extra money and ownership took a risk that didnt pay off. In the end the team was no worse off then before him. They moved him for clarkson which was a good move dumping a dead contract for a grinder then traded Clarkson and their 1st (which was going to be used to draft Tex anyways Jarmo said in an interview so hurt us 0) to not draft 3 of our best young players.

The Horton/Clarkson deal literally had 0 negative or positive effects on the franchise. People want to whine about Karlson but there is less then a 2% chance he ever comes within 10 goals of that total here. Guys that are fantastic goal scorers like Panarin and Cam dont hit those numbers. You are delusional if you think he ever played higher then PLD and Wenni and any offensive role. He got lucky and had the best personal situation for him you can honestly have.

I wouldn't say "zero impact", but it was pretty damn minimal in the final accounting. They dodged a freaking howitzer, but only after they'd loaded it and started strolling carefree in front of the barrel. Very much a self-created "gosh, that could have been much much worse" situation.

 

[JacketsDavid]

FFS, that had nothing to do with the Clarkson debacle. You miss Viqsi's point - the cost for unloading Clarkson was a 1st round pick, plain and simple.

Major you could be right. Every article I pull up say it was one deal. Can you find an article that says it was 2 deals, that ending up being one? Again just looking for something that says it so, not just you constantly saying it is.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

Major you could be right. Every article I pull up say it was one deal. Can you find an article that says it was 2 deals, that ending up being one? Again just looking for something that says it so, not just you constantly saying it is.

I've only ever seen it as one deal as well. HOWEVER, in fairness to management, everything having to do with Karlsson and protecting Anderson would've had to happen regardless of Clarkson. The fact that that was included in the Clarkson deal is incidental IMO. Columbus probably would've been shipping someone a pick to take Karlsson over Anderson and Korpi regardless. It just happened to be rolled into the Vegas/Clarkson deal. At least that's how I see it.

 

[major major]

Major you could be right. Every article I pull up say it was one deal. Can you find an article that says it was 2 deals, that ending up being one? Again just looking for something that says it so, not just you constantly saying it is.

It would have been Portzline, and something he reported probably several months after the initial expansion draft reporting. Initially it wasn't publicly known exactly which of the draft picks was for taking Karlsson and which was for taking Clarkson. From Vegas' other deals you could surmise that Clarkson cost about a 1st, and Karlsson therefore cost about a 2nd.

But regardless of the reporting, you should be able to figure out that Karlsson wasn't the payment to dump Clarkson. We paid them to take Karlsson! How can giving them something they don't prefer be a payment?

 

[brianhatesu]

I was under the impression it was flipped. I thought Vegas needed Clarkson's contract to get to the salary floor, so that was for the 2nd. The 1st was then for Vegas to take Karlsson and protect Anderson and Korp. Didn't Vegas make other deals with other teams to protect players? What did they go for?

 

[EspenK]

So who would you prefer as GM Jarmo or Yzerman?

 

[Monk]

So who would you prefer as GM Jarmo or Yzerman?

Jarmo.