The Illusion of the rebuild

[IslesFanatic]

For a rebuild to be successful you have to actually spend money and bring in GOOd vets via UFA or trade. The isles either can't (Snow not doing his job) or won't (Cheap **** Chuck). Cant just depend on the youngsters to carry the load. Doesnt work that way. This rebuild is another name for team on the cheap. Always has been. Always will be until I am given reasons to believe otherwise.

 

[IslesFanatic]

Darth, it's been 5 games and a period. It's a little early to be making judgements like that. Give it some time.

Its been 7 years

 

[IslesFanatic]

I'd agree with you if we were talking about seasoned NHL veterans. Regin and Strait are not that.

Both are AWFUL, as is PMB. Waste of roster spots.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

There is an all or none assumption that seems to be taking hold in this thread that goes beyond what I was arguing.

I am happy that Strome is getting time in the AHL. I think he needs to bulk up and round out his game, and more time will help.

I think sending Reinhart and Pulock down made a ton of sense too and hope those two players get some AHL time in after they finish off their CHL eligibility.

On the other hand, I am bitterly opposed to the Isles pattern of signing place holders up front (Regin, Bouchard, Boyle, etc) and giving all that icetime to marginal bubble guys instead of rookies who are already on the team. To me, it does Donovan no good to sit nor is there any logic in Nelson riding the pine. I don't think sitting does an ounce of good for either kid, or for the team, and I really see no sense in sinking resources into yet another crew of marginal frustrating players.

I think the Isles should move slowly with development, bring kids up through the CHL and AHL, and then let them play and learn the game when they get here. And, I don't think the Isles have done that a lot. They either rush guys (Nino, Bailey) or keep them from prominent roles for too long.

Instead of a logical rebuilding program, we burn out some kids, refuse to give others a chance, and we rely on an endless series of retreads and fill ins.

To be honest, Regin is a gamble....good defensive forward and good skillset but injury prone. PMB is a Hail Mary....at minimum competent in three zones but potentially a very good second line scoring threat.

Rather than looking at them as placeholders....a view of being an ALL ISLES DRAFTED TEAM.....how about assets who help us win and can help create a viable trade to improve?

Too many forwards....need better D.....what if we sent Okposo, Bouchard and a pick for a top two defensemen? Then those aren't placeholders for kids but assets who as a side effect of being sent packing for improvement of the team, allows a top notch prospect to play in the bigs?

 

[Darth Milbury]

To be honest, Regin is a gamble....good defensive forward and good skillset but injury prone. PMB is a Hail Mary....at minimum competent in three zones but potentially a very good second line scoring threat.

Rather than looking at them as placeholders....a view of being an ALL ISLES DRAFTED TEAM.....how about assets who help us win and can help create a viable trade to improve?

Too many forwards....need better D.....what if we sent Okposo, Bouchard and a pick for a top two defensemen? Then those aren't placeholders for kids but assets who as a side effect of being sent packing for improvement of the team, allows a top notch prospect to play in the bigs?

that's not what those guys are. They're the new versions of Boyle - marginal guys with no trade value who contribute in a fairly limited way on the ice. They'll take up space like Hilbert, Boyle, Kozlov and so many other junk fill-ins over the years. Sooner or later they'll get cut lose, add nothing to the team, and Isles would have wasted all that ice time and developmental opportunities on a non asset.

I've watched that happen again and again. And, frankly, I'm tired of the Andy Hilbert effect. I want to see some real quality NHL guys, and I want a stable and methodical development program.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

I've watched that happen again and again. And, frankly, I'm tired of the Andy Hilbert effect. I want to see some real quality NHL guys, and I want a stable and methodical development program.

Signing those type of guys gives the team flexibility. Young players struggle over a long 82. These type of guys allow them to soften those struggles. I agree with the general concept that the Isles development methods have been suspect, but it's not because they sign veteran 3rd and 4th liners. Those type of players exist all over the NHL and they need to be emphatically pushed out of jobs by young players, not the other way around.

The Isles development system should definitely be questioned... mostly because so much of it seems to be based on cap hits, salary, and other squirrelly nonsense. But, letting veterans buffer the absolute need to play prospects isn't a big deal. These kids have plenty of time to make an impact. A year of partial duty/limited responsibility isn't gonna hurt their development or the team.

 

[Jester9881]

This thread is awful, and gets worse the further you read.

 

[Darth Milbury]

I would say that signing gritty bangers gives a team flexibility for the third/fourth line. What we keep singing are bubble players who don't really contribute anywhere.

To me, Bouchard and Regin are the typical Islander signings: Relatively inexpensive, don't bring much to the table, and just take up space. I am really frustrated with having to watch guys like that year after year.

Say what you want about Donovan, but he is fun to watch play - same for Nelson.

 

[BTrotts19]

I would say that signing gritty bangers gives a team flexibility for the third/fourth line. What we keep singing are bubble players who don't really contribute anywhere.

To me, Bouchard and Regin are the typical Islander signings: Relatively inexpensive, don't bring much to the table, and just take up space. I am really frustrated with having to watch guys like that year after year.

Say what you want about Donovan, but he is fun to watch play - same for Nelson.

I agree with this. I can almost forgive Wang with the crap financial deal he has with Nassau County but he will have a better deal in Brooklyn, you have had some success and saw the people come in and spend. I could have lived with having the kids come up for a tryout this year, access what you need and then this upcoming summer, go big on a goalie, Dman or top 6 forward. Watching two fillers come in and take the spot of our kids is so frustrating. Right now they don't look to advance our chances to make/go deep in playoffs which would really be a half step back. If you wanna save your cash, we have another throw away year but 2/3 kids get their first taste of the NHL and then we spend this summer. Hopefully these guys turn this stuff around and we can all (me) eat crow.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

I would say that signing gritty bangers gives a team flexibility for the third/fourth line. What we keep singing are bubble players who don't really contribute anywhere.

That's your perspective on those player's abilities and the team's needs. But, those guys are playing on the 3rd line. I would call that a general disagreement with the team's general philosophy of how to utilize the 3rd/4th lines (although to be fair, both lines are also flush with your "gritty bangers") than it is with kids being blocked or rebuilding being abandoned or whatever.

To me, Bouchard and Regin are the typical Islander signings: Relatively inexpensive, don't bring much to the table, and just take up space. I am really frustrated with having to watch guys like that year after year.

Well, the team has been bad for a long time, so you're gonna have your fair share of those types. The team looks like they may be ready to take the next step with the core, but there's nothing wrong with padding your depth with a couple of guys on one year deals. Like I said, they're playing on the third line, and both have the ability to move up or down a line in a pinch.

Say what you want about Donovan, but he is fun to watch play - same for Nelson.

I would say that's mostly based on your perception of their potential. I don't see that much of a difference between those players and the veteran player's current abilities/production. In terms of intangibles, they might have more exuberance, but it's offset by their lack of moxie.

That's the deal with the prospect/young guys, right? They're exciting! Potential! Fun and new! The possibilities are endless. It's like in Christmas Story when he gets the major award, "My god, there could be anything in there!" With the Regins of the world, you already know what you're getting. Not quite as much fun.

Be patient, boys. The kids are coming. From all accounts, they're good guys that aren't gonna fly off the handle and act like brats. I have confidence that they will all contribute to the team's (hopeful) success in the future. This is the era of "I want it now!" It's only 6 games in... it'll come.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

Be patient, boys. The kids are coming. From all accounts, they're good guys that aren't gonna fly off the handle and act like brats. I have confidence that they will all contribute to the team's (hopeful) success in the future. This is the era of "I want it now!" It's only 6 games in... it'll come.

So, it is all about the prospects? And their character? After being fed the rebuild BS for this long, I am not buying it. Every team has a farm team and prospects, but some teams try to fill the holes in their roster and improve.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

So, it is all about the prospects? And their character? After being fed the rebuild BS for this long, I am not buying it. Every team has a farm team and prospects, but some teams try to fill the holes in their roster and improve.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm speaking specifically to the prospects/young players that have been spoken about in this thread. I referred to their character to illustrate that I think that these players, again the ones referenced in the thread, have the pertinacity and aplomb to continue to improve in a limited role and I feel they'll be the better for it.

As far as the "the teams should fill holes and improve", you're preaching to the converted. I've been beating that drum for a long time. But, it is what it is.

 

[simbo042]

There seem to be a number of different arguments going on here!

Personally I was neither bothered or surpirsed that Reinhart went back, Strome was a marginal call (but I expect he'll be around soon given the continuing problems on JTs wing). My problem, as others have pointed out, is that Cappy has a track record of consistently punishing young players for mistakes by sitting them or severely reducing their minutes (see Ullstrom). How is this approach helpful in the long term for prospects that have paid their dues through the system? They'll show no development at all in those circumstance simply because they aren't playing.

I agree it is a little early to worry about scratches to Nelson and Donovan, and I really want them to succeed. But it seems to me that the early part of the season should be used to allow rookies to beat out placeholder vets on a performance basis rather than giving vets the benefit of the doubt because they are starting slowly (PMB). I also think Regin has played better than they were expecting, making the scratches harder.

Lets revisit this after game 20?

 

[Darth Milbury]

Staple tweets that Nelson is sitting again tonight.

That is three of the first seven games.

 

[bigd]

Staple tweets that Nelson is sitting again tonight.

That is three of the first seven games.

Donovan and Cmac in tonight. Scratch Strait or Carkner? I don't know if Carkner can handle the speedy Oilers forwards.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

Staple tweets that Nelson is sitting again tonight.

That is three of the first seven games.

They should just go ahead and send him to Bridgeport. I don't mind the decision to not dress him, but he should be playing somewhere, you'd think.

 

[Darth Milbury]

They should just go ahead and send him to Bridgeport. I don't mind the decision to not dress him, but he should be playing somewhere, you'd think.

Totally agree. Send the kid down and let him play.

 

[duster19]

Donovan and Cmac in tonight. Scratch Strait or Carkner? I don't know if Carkner can handle the speedy Oilers forwards.

Carkner is out.

Dunno about this. I thought Carkner played well against BUF. Edm has some idiot goons on that team to. I thought Strait would be the odd man.out.

Poor Nelson. It is kind of getting foolish now. Sign Martinek, send nelson down. use boulton as the extra...

 

[leeroggy]

Darth, I just had a chance to read through this thread and had a few thigns to say:

The Buffalo game again exposed the need to add another physical defenseman with NHL experience. I know you have spoken on other threads about someone like Gleason or something similar that can skate and pass (ironically kind of like a McCabe in his prime). We are just too small IN TOTO on the back line. All the small players - Viz, Hickey, McD and Strait are fine as INDIVIDUALS, but all four of them together is too much. Even Hamonic is 'ONLY' 6' 2" and 210 lbs, hardly the size needed to move a Lucic from the front consistently.

I also think Moulson makes a very good trade chip, and when bundled with McD or Hickey could bring something nice back. Maybe the two of them to the Caps for Alzner might make sense, or something similar. We need to get bigger back there and there is no guarantee that Mayfield or Pedan can develop to an Alzner's level. We are right on the cusp of making a leap upward if we can get this together.

BTW - wasn't it JT who didn't close down on the Buffalo wing who tied the game late? You can't let that guy get off the shot so easily in that situation - gap coverage cost us that game Tuesday. We praise JT a lot, but he made a defensive lapse and needs to be called out for it on that play.

Donovan has more size than at least three of those I named and needs to play, period. With him it is just playing experience, not talent at this point. Get him in now.

Capuano seems like a 50/50 proposition to me as a coach - I really like his offensive strategy but I don't know about his handling of the players. His track record with the youngsters is not promising and he seems to have that annoying quality of Ted Nolan in relying on experience over potential. Given the rule changes towards more offense you need to populate your lineup to fit your strategy. If the strategy is to press on the forecheck and bring speed through the neutral zone then play those types of players (this is why I think they signed Regin and PMB, because they fit that system better than a Boyes or PAP). But if they don't start producing they need to be held accountable like the kids are. That is the crux of the Nino issue. I watched Minnesota a couple of times this season and he looks much better than he did with us. He looks like he isn't afraid to make a mistake as opposed to skating around like he has to remember things. And maybe that is Capuano's weak spot - his inability to be patient with a kid. And that has long term effect on an organization like ours that relies on developing kids instead of free agent signings.

We are at a tricky bend in the curve right now with our team. In order to take the next step forward we might need to be willing to take a step back first, whether by playing the kids and accepting the inevitable mistakes they will make at first, or by packaging a few assets like Moulson to pick up that missing asset on the back end for this season. I also wonder if JT's play would improve without Moulson around. It seems that JT tries to do too much stickhandling at times and I think some of that is because he doesn't fully trust Moulson with handling the puck more.

A possible pairing that might be interesting to try would be JT with Strome and Martin. JT and Ryan playing a two-man game with MM to do the dirty work in the corners and defensively.

Or of course I could be full of it

 

[redbull]

Carkner is out.

Dunno about this. I thought Carkner played well against BUF. Edm has some idiot goons on that team to. I thought Strait would be the odd man.out.

Poor Nelson. It is kind of getting foolish now. Sign Martinek, send nelson down. use boulton as the extra...

Carkner was good against Buffalo but the Oilers are very small and very quick. Carkner doesn't match well with that team, even though he can bench press Arcobello.

Staple tweets that Nelson is sitting again tonight.

That is three of the first seven games.

Cappy thinks he's Eakins and Nelson is Yakupov.

There's absolutely NO REASON why Nelson shouldn't be playing. The only thing that may explain this is that Capuano would like to give Regin and Bouchard, on one-way contracts, a chance to show what they can do over an extended period of time. New team, new system, new linemates - whatever.

And if that's the case, at least send Nelson to BP to get some games in, maybe they'll do that this weekend and then re-call him.

But I'm not sure what game Capuano's watching out there because contracts aside, Nelson has been among the best forwards on the team this year. He gives the Islanders a better chance to win than a lot of forwards. There are NOT 12 forwards better than Brock Nelson on this roster.

 

[BTrotts19]

For those of us going to the game tonight, we need a "We Want Nelson" chant

 

[bigd]

Carkner is out.

Dunno about this. I thought Carkner played well against BUF. Edm has some idiot goons on that team to. I thought Strait would be the odd man.out.

Poor Nelson. It is kind of getting foolish now. Sign Martinek, send nelson down. use boulton as the extra...

Carkner is like Boulton. He knows his roll is to serve and protect so I'm sure he's fine with being the odd man out. They were probably both informed of this when they signed. Carkner has had some hip issues in the past so he's getting 1.5 mil and light duty at 33. Not bad for part time work.

 

[duster19]

Carkner is like Boulton. He knows his roll is to serve and protect so I'm sure he's fine with being the odd man out. They were probably both informed of this when they signed. Carkner has had some hip issues in the past so he's getting 1.5 mil and light duty at 33. Not bad for part time work.

no. Carknwr brings much more theb Boulton. Boulton fights a hw every game he plays. Carkner actyally can play yhe game and bring a physical presence. Seems a bad decision to let Strait play after a horrific game and scratch Carkner who played well. Beaides..edm has a couple goons, so not dressing boulton or carkner is even dumber. When you take guys like that out of the lineup you put a lot of pressure on maetin to handle that. Gazdic is a big boy...

 

[duster19]

Carkner was good against Buffalo but the Oilers are very small and very quick. Carkner doesn't match well with that team, even though he can bench press Arcobello.



Cappy thinks he's Eakins and Nelson is Yakupov.

There's absolutely NO REASON why Nelson shouldn't be playing. The only thing that may explain this is that Capuano would like to give Regin and Bouchard, on one-way contracts, a chance to show what they can do over an extended period of time. New team, new system, new linemates - whatever.

And if that's the case, at least send Nelson to BP to get some games in, maybe they'll do that this weekend and then re-call him.

But I'm not sure what game Capuano's watching out there because contracts aside, Nelson has been among the best forwards on the team this year. He gives the Islanders a better chance to win than a lot of forwards. There are NOT 12 forwards better than Brock Nelson on this roster.

but Strait is. Sometimes matchups are overrated and you play the guy who ia playing better. Plus, we are at home, we deciede who plays against who

 

[bigd]

no. Carknwr brings much more theb Boulton. Boulton fights a hw every game he plays. Carkner actyally can play yhe game and bring a physical presence. Seems a bad decision to let Strait play after a horrific game and scratch Carkner who played well. Beaides..edm has a couple goons, so not dressing boulton or carkner is even dumber. When you take guys like that out of the lineup you put a lot of pressure on maetin to handle that. Gazdic is a big boy...

Can you repeat that in English please.