The Illusion of the rebuild

[OlTimeHockey]

I agree with this to a certain extent. I think the frustration lies in that we seem to sign marginal players in the offseason, like Bouchard and Regin, and we are forced to play them, DESPITE our prospects like Strome and Nelson outplaying them at training camp (by a wide margin). Imagine a prospect doing whatever he can to make the team like Strome did, outplaying guys, yet still being sent down, despite obviously being better players than guys who make the team.

I'm thinking fans would be alright with the Islanders had sent Strome down, IF the Isles had actually signed, good, talented players during the Free Agency period.

Strome played like a 6 or 7. PMB like a 5. Why send Strome down? So he can become a 9. That's why. He's still developing. So he was better? He goes down so he can besome EVEN BETTER. Play in 3 zones, strength on his skates, etc.

I'm thrilled our guys are being sent down and not rushed. WE benefit, NOT Minny or Vancouver or whoever else trades for these frustrated rushed and underwhelming young Islanders.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

I think the Isles are like those expensive toy collectors. Afraid to take the toy out of the box because it might lose its value.

PLAY WITH THE GOD DAMN TOY.

I think this post says a ton.

Are these kids toys or multi-million dollar investments?

 

[blinkman360]

Strome played like a 6 or 7. PMB like a 5. Why send Strome down? So he can become a 9. That's why. He's still developing. So he was better? He goes down so he can besome EVEN BETTER. Play in 3 zones, strength on his skates, etc.

I'm thrilled our guys are being sent down and not rushed. WE benefit, NOT Minny or Vancouver or whoever else trades for these frustrated rushed and underwhelming young Islanders.

Who is to say that Strome wouldn't become a 9 had he cracked the lineup this year? Players can continue to develop at the NHL level. It happens all the time. Another positive is that you get his growing pains out of the way earlier. Instead of having "growing pains rookie" Strome to start next year, you have "bonafide top-six/1st line" Strome. I don't believe in the argument that substantial AHL time eliminates NHL growing pains either, otherwise a guy like Matt Donovan(who had about 2+ years in the AHL) would have had a much smoother transition.

I get the whole playing it safe strategy, I just don't think there is any evidence to suggest that giving these guys extra time to develop makes them any safer or any more likely to reach their potential. All it does is prevent a front office from being accused of "rushing"(which, after the Nino backlash, is IMO the reason why they are showing this kind of patience with Strome and Reinhart).

 

[Riddick]

To be fair, Niño wasn't rushed, just grossly and incompetently mishandled. You want an example of rushed? Look no further than Mr Bailey.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

Who is to say that Strome wouldn't become a 9 had he cracked the lineup this year? Players can continue to develop at the NHL level. It happens all the time. Another positive is that you get his growing pains out of the way earlier. Instead of having "growing pains rookie" Strome to start next year, you have "bonafide top-six/1st line" Strome. I don't believe in the argument that substantial AHL time eliminates NHL growing pains either, otherwise a guy like Matt Donovan(who had about 2+ years in the AHL) would have had a much smoother transition.

I get the whole playing it safe strategy, I just don't think there is any evidence to suggest that giving these guys extra time to develop makes them any safer or any more likely to reach their potential. All it does is prevent a front office from being accused of "rushing"(which, after the Nino backlash, is IMO the reason why they are showing this kind of patience with Strome and Reinhart).

Does Strome possess all the skills to succeed in the NHL in three zones? Does he have one skill that blew everyone away a la Moulson? He looked good in camp WITH THE PUCK. Coaches didn't think he looked good enough WITHOUT IT.

Reinhart is a defenseman. Handled more carefully. Is he Pronger? Nope.

Like Donovan, a guy who paid his dues, these guys have to pay theirs.

Now who is to say Strome wouldn't become a 9 in the bigs? Bertuzzi, Isbister, Nino, lots of guys. You rush a player when you refuse to give them time to fully develop. It's simple. Want Strome developing skills against the toughest competition of the world of in the AHL, so he can later HONE those skills against the toughest competition?

 

[blinkman360]

To be fair, Niño wasn't rushed, just grossly and incompetently mishandled. You want an example of rushed? Look no further than Mr Bailey.

Which is interesting, since you'd assume that if "ruining" a prospect was an actual thing, Bailey would be playing in Sweden right now. Strome has already had 2+ more years of development than Bailey back then, and he'd be joining a team that's probably a Stanley Cup contender compared to that '08 squad Bailey made.

We have enough talent around(especially up front) to keep these guys out of the spotlight, and to just let them play their game and get comfortable. Add in the kid being NHL ready and fitting a pretty big hole, and it really makes no sense(to me, at least) to see him in Bridgeport at this point. Not when he could be helping us win games right now.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

And another thing...does the NHL team benefit from having not so ready NHL guys or all guys skating being NHL ready? We're competing for the playoffs nowadays. Add a guy when he improves our chances, not so we'll be better NEXT YEAR. MAYBE.

 

[blinkman360]

Does Strome possess all the skills to succeed in the NHL in three zones? Does he have one skill that blew everyone away a la Moulson? He looked good in camp WITH THE PUCK. Coaches didn't think he looked good enough WITHOUT IT.

Reinhart is a defenseman. Handled more carefully. Is he Pronger? Nope.

Like Donovan, a guy who paid his dues, these guys have to pay theirs.

Now who is to say Strome wouldn't become a 9 in the bigs? Bertuzzi, Isbister, Nino, lots of guys. You rush a player when you refuse to give them time to fully develop. It's simple. Want Strome developing skills against the toughest competition of the world of in the AHL, so he can later HONE those skills against the toughest competition?

1) Where did you read that the coaches weren't satisfied with his all-around game? and 2) Even if they actually said that, I wouldn't put much stock into it considering Strome was going to be sent down regardless of how he played. Saying "he needs to work on his game without the puck" just seems like a pretty convenient excuse for sending a kid down who deserves to make the team. Strome's defensive game is actually pretty underrated around here. He's become a pretty solid 2-way player over the last year+.

As far as those three examples, that's a pretty interesting group choice. Bertuzzi actually DID prove that he could become an impact player while developing in the pro's... the Isles just gave up on him too quickly. Nino hasn't become that player yet, but I don't know how you can say that he's proven he can't. He's still only 21 years old. Isbister... not sure how he even relates. He was never at the same level of prospect as Strome, and he had almost 4 years of development before cracking an NHL lineup full time.

 

[blinkman360]

And another thing...does the NHL team benefit from having not so ready NHL guys or all guys skating being NHL ready? We're competing for the playoffs nowadays. Add a guy when he improves our chances, not so we'll be better NEXT YEAR. MAYBE.

What??? Is Toronto(Rielly) not competing for the playoffs? Is San Jose(Hertl) not competing for the playoffs? Is Winnipeg(Scheifele and Trouba) not competing for the playoffs? All are on a similar level to Strome, and all are currently making impacts for teams with playoff aspirations.

Outside of Scheifele, all of these guys have less development than Strome.

 

[PK Cronin]

What??? Is Toronto(Rielly) not competing for the playoffs? Is San Jose(Hertl) not competing for the playoffs? Is Winnipeg(Scheifele and Trouba) not competing for the playoffs? All are on a similar level to Strome, and all are currently making impacts for teams with playoff aspirations.

Outside of Scheifele, all of these guys have less development than Strome.

Do you think those guys are leaned on as much as Strome would be if he were playing in the NHL?

I don't think so.

 

[blinkman360]

Do you think those guys are leaned on as much as Strome would be if he were playing in the NHL?

I don't think so.

I don't see how Strome would be any different. Hertl is playing top-line with Thornton and Burns and Scheifele is centering Winnipeg's 2nd line.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

What??? Is Toronto(Rielly) not competing for the playoffs? Is San Jose(Hertl) not competing for the playoffs? Is Winnipeg(Scheifele and Trouba) not competing for the playoffs? All are on a similar level to Strome, and all are currently making impacts for teams with playoff aspirations.

Outside of Scheifele, all of these guys have less development than Strome.

So why isn't DeHaan up when Hedman and Larsson are? It's not fair.

Or they were ready.

Or their teams screwed up.

Maybe the Isles want more from their "toys."

 

[OlTimeHockey]

I don't see how Strome would be any different. Hertl is playing top-line with Thornton and Burns and Scheifele is centering Winnipeg's 2nd line.

Who is Strome better than now? Moulson? Bailey? Tavares? Okposo? Neilson? Grabner? Want him on the fourth line with Martin or the third line with Clutterbuck? Who do you move? A defensive forward when our GA's NEED to improve? A physical player when we need to play tougher hockey in the postseason?

How about we wait the months it takes and make a deal to open up space and upgrade, say, DEFENSE so Strome, who is being punished by the US, UN weapons inspectors and Afghani warlords, can finally play? {read: develops more and proves himself to break into the lineup}?

Every rookie toy should be up. Trade Neilson, he sucks at shootouts now. Moulson isn't scoring a goal a game and is a third liner. Just bring me fresh veal.

I don't care, FWIW, what powerhouse Toronto or Winnipeg does. I care about us not making mistakes we've seen on NYI for three decades now.

 

[blinkman360]

So why isn't DeHaan up when Hedman and Larsson are? It's not fair.

Or they were ready.

Or their teams screwed up.

Maybe the Isles want more from their "toys."

deHaan, Hedman, and Larsson... one thing is not like the others.

Serious question: do you think we'd be a better or worse team right now with Strome in the lineup and PMB out of it?

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

I swear, half the "let the kids play!" stuff is so people can have a **** {Mod Edit} measuring contest with the fans of other teams on the main/trade/draft boards.

 

[blinkman360]

Who is Strome better than now? Moulson? Bailey? Tavares? Okposo? Neilson? Grabner? Want him on the fourth line with Martin or the third line with Clutterbuck? Who do you move? A defensive forward when our GA's NEED to improve? A physical player when we need to play tougher hockey in the postseason?

How about we wait the months it takes and make a deal to open up space and upgrade, say, DEFENSE so Strome, who is being punished by the US, UN weapons inspectors and Afghani warlords, can finally play? {read: develops more and proves himself to break into the lineup}?

Every rookie toy should be up. Trade Neilson, he sucks at shootouts now. Moulson isn't scoring a goal a game and is a third liner. Just bring me fresh veal.

I don't care, FWIW, what powerhouse Toronto or Winnipeg does. I care about us not making mistakes we've seen on NYI for three decades now.

How did I know I was going to see the same old "I don't care what team X does". The truth is you talk about what is best for certain prospects like it's fact, when in reality no team follows your strategy. Otherwise Strome wouldn't be the only top-10 prospect currently playing in the AHL.

As far as who Strome would replace, that's easy: Bouchard. Move Nelson back up the middle and bump Regin down as the 13th forward. Bing bang boom. But I guess we'd have to bench a decent player to make room for our potential impact player, so that's a no-go, right? Why strive to be great when you can maintain that mediocre level?

 

[blinkman360]

I swear, half the "let the kids play!" stuff is so people can have a 8888 {Mod Edit} measuring contest with the fans of other teams on the main/trade/draft boards.

You're right. Nothing to do with being a better team, because(of course), rookies can't be good players... everyone knows that.

All about **** {Mod Edit} measuring.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

All about **** {Mod Edit} measuring.

Half is not all. Half is half.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

deHaan, Hedman, and Larsson... one thing is not like the others.

Serious question: do you think we'd be a better or worse team right now with Strome in the lineup and PMB out of it?

PMB. He's a better all around player and a solid scoring threat who right now is finding his game EARLY in the season, and not some rookie/unwrapped toy being thrown to the wolves.

 

[blinkman360]

Half is not all. Half is half.

My mistake Poppa Bear. Won't happen again.

 

[blinkman360]

PMB. He's a better all around player and a solid scoring threat who right now is finding his game EARLY in the season, and not some rookie/unwrapped toy being thrown to the wolves.

You gotta get off of the toy metaphor. I was trying to make a funny, but I forgot about how you refer to these kids as babies out of the womb.

Aside from that, I thought the reason why you want Strome down in the AHL is because of his game away from the puck? PMB's game away from the puck has easily been the worst on our team thus far. Way worse than Moulson even.

If you think playing Strome right now would be "throwing him to the wolves", I honestly think you don't know much about the player he is today. My guess is you are basing your opinion on his age, which is unfortunate.

 

[PK Cronin]

Serious question: do you think we'd be a better or worse team right now with Strome in the lineup and PMB out of it?

I think we'd be a better team if we had PMB out and Nelson in.

If Strome is coming up, who is going out? There isn't room right now without a move. Tavares, Bailey, Nielsen, Okposo, Grabner, Martin, Cizikas, Clutterbuck, and Moulson aren't going anywhere. That leaves McDonald, Regin, PMB, and Nelson, with two of them needing to be bumped from the lineup consistently. My guess is that Regin isn't going to move either since he's playing center and winning 50% of his draws.

It's not really as simple as adding Strome in. Who is he replacing in the top 6 that would be good playing 3rd line minutes. Then who are you removing from the 3rd/4th line to make room on the roster.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

You gotta get off of the toy metaphor. I was trying to make a funny, but I forgot about how you refer to these kids as babies out of the womb.

Aside from that, I thought the reason why you want Strome down in the AHL is because of his game away from the puck? PMB's game away from the puck has easily been the worst on our team thus far. Way worse than Moulson even.

If you think playing Strome right now would be "throwing him to the wolves", I honestly think you don't know much about the player he is today. My guess is you are basing your opinion on his age, which is unfortunate.

PMB was good away from the puck in Minny....great at turnovers and creating rushes, scoring opportunities, etc. He is an NHL pro with history.

Strome is an unknown but getting better.

PMB improved a lot from two games ago last night. Small sample sizes used for rookies and not pro's early in the season? See the issue some of us have?

 

[Darth Milbury]

Strome played like a 6 or 7. PMB like a 5. Why send Strome down? So he can become a 9. That's why. He's still developing. So he was better? He goes down so he can besome EVEN BETTER. Play in 3 zones, strength on his skates, etc.

I'm thrilled our guys are being sent down and not rushed. WE benefit, NOT Minny or Vancouver or whoever else trades for these frustrated rushed and underwhelming young Islanders.

There is an all or none assumption that seems to be taking hold in this thread that goes beyond what I was arguing.

I am happy that Strome is getting time in the AHL. I think he needs to bulk up and round out his game, and more time will help.

I think sending Reinhart and Pulock down made a ton of sense too and hope those two players get some AHL time in after they finish off their CHL eligibility.

On the other hand, I am bitterly opposed to the Isles pattern of signing place holders up front (Regin, Bouchard, Boyle, etc) and giving all that icetime to marginal bubble guys instead of rookies who are already on the team. To me, it does Donovan no good to sit nor is there any logic in Nelson riding the pine. I don't think sitting does an ounce of good for either kid, or for the team, and I really see no sense in sinking resources into yet another crew of marginal frustrating players.

I think the Isles should move slowly with development, bring kids up through the CHL and AHL, and then let them play and learn the game when they get here. And, I don't think the Isles have done that a lot. They either rush guys (Nino, Bailey) or keep them from prominent roles for too long.

Instead of a logical rebuilding program, we burn out some kids, refuse to give others a chance, and we rely on an endless series of retreads and fill ins.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

I think we'd be a better team if we had PMB out and Nelson in.

If Strome is coming up, who is going out? There isn't room right now without a move. Tavares, Bailey, Nielsen, Okposo, Grabner, Martin, Cizikas, Clutterbuck, and Moulson aren't going anywhere. That leaves McDonald, Regin, PMB, and Nelson, with two of them needing to be bumped from the lineup consistently. My guess is that Regin isn't going to move either since he's playing center and winning 50% of his draws.

It's not really as simple as adding Strome in. Who is he replacing in the top 6 that would be good playing 3rd line minutes. Then who are you removing from the 3rd/4th line to make room on the roster.

right now, yeah, Nelson plays better than PMB. But PMB is getting better. Nelson is, as I just read about young guys sitting, getting better watching the game upstairs and will be back on the ice, soon. Watching the game, seeing events on ice from an analytical view....I think Nelson will eventually carve out a permanent spot.

My ideal on Strome going in? He blows away everyone in Bridgeport and we make a trade for a solid winger or defenseman and he plays, sits and watches, plays, grows and takes the right path to taking a permanent spot.