The Hamilton Blues?

[bluemandan]

How bad do things have to get in St.Louis before they realize that no local buyers will materialize and nobody from the outside will step in an subsidize the franchise that continues to bleed money despite selling out nearly every home game? Is it within the realm of the possible that St.Louis, which has almost lost a team at least once that I can recall off the top of my head, might lose their team to Hamilton? I understand that St.Louis is a great sports city and the hockey tradition there is pretty good (and the youth hockey programs are among the best in the US) but if there are no local buyers what can the NHL do? You can't materialize a buyer out of thin air.

I realize this is all very premature and we're not anywhere near the point where this is a concern but I'm curious as to whether or not this will eventually become an issue and possibly even a reality. I'm sure the NHL would hate to lose the St.Louis market.

Who is this "they" you refer to? Towerbrook? The NHL? Fans in St. Louis?

Worse than Ralston Purina bad. RP literally abandoned the team, not even showing up for a draft. Yet there is still a team in St. Louis. While the team is currently for sale, you should keep in mind that the current owners, Towerbrook, is not a local entity. I believe that a couple of offers have been made for the Blues, including ones from a group lead by current ownership frontman Dave Checketts, as well as one from minority owner Tom Stillman.

Just because the Blues are for sale doesn't mean that St. Louis is not a viable market. I imagine that the fan-base could deal with a small to moderate price increase in tickets and still come out to support the team.

I also seem to remember reading somewhere that Towerbrook was selling the Blues because of something dealing with the capital gains tax here in the USA, not because they couldn't afford to operate the team.

Also, I don't know that the Blues are "bleeding" money. Now, they aren't making a profit, but there is a difference between that and "bleeding" money.

The Blues are also the only team in St. Louis without an exemption to some tax or something in the city. Give them the same exemption that the Rams and Cardinals have, raise ticket prices by an average of $5 dollars or so, and I think that the Blues could have been profitable this past season. (Just a guess, I don't have numbers to run or anything.) The team could make $3+ million just with the ticket price increase. (Its almost four if they draw the way they did last season.)

I think that with the reopening of the Kiel Opera House this fall, a deal with the city of St. Louis, and a small increase in ticket prices, that the St. Louis Blues could be profitable even without making the playoffs.

There are a couple of other franchises in worse shape, in worse markets that will relocate before the NHL considers moving the Blues. Keep in mind that there are only so many viable locations in Canada and the USA.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Yea except the NFL just changed their rules to allow the team to be sold to a guy who is from STL, and the previous owners were from LA but sold the team rather think about moving them to LA. Please do not comment on things you do not know about.

Except Kroenke is not from STL, he is on the LA expansion committee(chair, in fact) and EJ dome is not in the top stadiums as required in the NFL contract. What do you think the NFL owners would like more. A bleeding midwest city or Hollywood?

 

[The Note]

I do not see 30 healthy franchises I see maybe 24 but not 30

Unhealthy Franchises
Phoenix
Florida
Columbus
St. Louis
NY. Islanders
Dallas

The Blues are in nowhere near as dire situations as any of those teams. Yes they're for sale, but to say the Blues are in a the same financial situation as any of them is pretty inaccurate

 

[bluemandan]

Except Kroenke is not from STL, he is on the LA expansion committee(chair, in fact) and EJ dome is not in the top stadiums as required in the NFL contract. What do you think the NFL owners would like more. A bleeding midwest city or Hollywood?

Well, I'm not really sure since they moved a team from Hollywood to a bleeding midwest city....

 

[IafrateOvie34]

I do not see 30 healthy franchises I see maybe 24 but not 30

Unhealthy Franchises
Phoenix
Florida
Columbus
St. Louis
NY. Islanders
Dallas

Once those teams start winning, they will get more healthy. I keep waiting for Columbus to take that next step. I guess I'm getting old or old, but to see the Isles on that list is just sad, but a reality. I still remember those old Islander days. Hard to imagine no NHL team in St Louis either.

 

[Killion]

Pandora's Box has been opened with the Atlanta move..

It surely has. So, what to make of Mr.Bettmans facile & disingenuous statement to the opposite?.

Note the words "can be" (as opposed to "are"), and "with the right economic system" (not necessarily what the owners and players ended up agreeing to).

Are you actually trying to be an apologist for Gary Bettmans mendacity Dr.No?. A loaf only goes so far.

 

[The Note]

How bad do things have to get in St.Louis before they realize that no local buyers will materialize and nobody from the outside will step in an subsidize the franchise that continues to bleed money despite selling out nearly every home game? Is it within the realm of the possible that St.Louis, which has almost lost a team at least once that I can recall off the top of my head, might lose their team to Hamilton? I understand that St.Louis is a great sports city and the hockey tradition there is pretty good (and the youth hockey programs are among the best in the US) but if there are no local buyers what can the NHL do? You can't materialize a buyer out of thin air.

I realize this is all very premature and we're not anywhere near the point where this is a concern but I'm curious as to whether or not this will eventually become an issue and possibly even a reality. I'm sure the NHL would hate to lose the St.Louis market.

The NHL would hate it, which is exactly why there's a good number of teams that would relocate long before the Blues would (if ever). The Blues situation really isn't as desperate as you may think there is local interest. Just because a team's for sale doesn't mean they're being shipped somewhere else now

 

[not a trapdoor]

Unhealthy Franchises
Phoenix
Florida
Columbus
St. Louis
NY. Islanders
Dallas

To address the OP; how many of these franchises are any chance of moving (to Hamilton or a similar market)?

Phoenix: Very possible that this franchise could move. Still in bucketloads of trouble.
Florida: The ownership group is happy enough with the current arrangement, if I understand correctly. Not a model franchise, but if they're happy with the status quo, they won't move the team.
Columbus: Not in the immediate term, but yeah they need to start winning so they can compete with the Buckeyes for local attention.
St Louis: Very unlikely as many here have stated. The business model might need tweaking, but they're not going anywhere unless ASG tries to run them.
Islanders: Really it's an arena issue. If they sort that out they'll be fine. Doesn't seem like the owner wants an easy way out, so for the time being they're safe.
Dallas: Isn't this more a case of an owner stripping the club of capital? Find a proper owner and they'll be fine. Fairly well established fanbase. Moving them won't solve anything and it's a big metro, so it's unlikely the NHL will allow them to move.

So it's probably down to Phoenix, Columbus & Islanders, although the last two have solvable issues which need addressing. Phoenix probably will move, even then, any franchise move is to Hamilton is another issue. Hamilton Blues isn't gunna happen.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Well, I'm not really sure since they moved a team from Hollywood to a bleeding midwest city....

Georgia did since the OC would not break the bank for her. And now she has passed, the rams went to a guy from Columbia who owns arsenal and is on the LA expansion committee.

 

[Jumptheshark]

last stat I saw said 12 teams lost money last year

 

[sh724]

Except Kroenke is not from STL, he is on the LA expansion committee(chair, in fact) and EJ dome is not in the top stadiums as required in the NFL contract. What do you think the NFL owners would like more. A bleeding midwest city or Hollywood?

Ok he isnt from STL he is from an hour outside of STL thats close enough to say he is from there. When he was put on that committee he owned 40% of the team. He is the sole reason the rams moved from LA to STL if he wanted to own the LA Rams he wouldnt have agreed to buy 40% of the team only if they moved to STL. The commitee he is the chair of is not an expansion committee it is an arena committee, to build an NFL caliber stadium in LA for a future team which most people think would end up being an expansion team or that Jaguars. With the 49ers moving to Santa Clara a lot of people think the Raiders will move to LA instead of losing their fan base to the 49ers. The contract is not with the NFL its with the team its the teams lease that says the lease is void if the stadium... What do you think NHL owners would rather have a bleeding PHX or a very profitable Hamilton, obviously owners of sports teams are not always looking at the most profitable situation.

Georgia did since the OC would not break the bank for her. And now she has passed, the rams went to a guy from Columbia who owns arsenal and is on the LA expansion committee.

Georgia moved the team because Kroenke would only buy 40% of the team if she agreed to move the team to STL.

 

[sh724]

Worse than Ralston Purina bad. RP literally abandoned the team, not even showing up for a draft. Yet there is still a team in St. Louis. While the team is currently for sale, you should keep in mind that the current owners, Towerbrook, is not a local entity. I believe that a couple of offers have been made for the Blues, including ones from a group lead by current ownership frontman Dave Checketts, as well as one from minority owner Tom Stillman.

Checketts has stepped aside and is no longer trying to buy the team his portion of the team is also for sale. One of Stillman's group members is Steve Maritz who is also a minority owner of the team. So is John Danforth from ...Ralston Purina... hopefully they do not give him any power.

I also seem to remember reading somewhere that Towerbrook was selling the Blues because of something dealing with the capital gains tax here in the USA, not because they couldn't afford to operate the team.

The capital gains tax reason was true but that has come and gone it went into effect January 1st, but they got pissed at Checketts dragging his feet and decided to sell all of their share, before they were only selling 75% of the team.

Also, I don't know that the Blues are "bleeding" money. Now, they aren't making a profit, but there is a difference between that and "bleeding" money.

The actual team has not been profitable but the entire operation has been profitable with SPC running the Scottrade center as well. Thats the problem with most sports teams people freak out that the team lost money but do not look at the numbers, part of the teams expenses is the owners paying themselves for the team using the arena and other things like that where money is only changing hands on paper and is going from one bank account to another that are controlled by the same people. The Blues also have a very fat front office with them giving jobs to any friend that wanted one but Armstrong stopped a lot of that when he took over so that will save the team some money.

The Blues are also the only team in St. Louis without an exemption to some tax or something in the city. Give them the same exemption that the Rams and Cardinals have

This is true as well the Blues do not get all the same city tax breaks as the horribly bad rams or the money grubbing Cardinals.

I think that with the reopening of the Kiel Opera House this fall, a deal with the city of St. Louis, and a small increase in ticket prices, that the St. Louis Blues could be profitable even without making the playoffs.

The reopening of the opera house will not have an impact on the teams profitability but like i talked about earlier it will make the overall operation more profitable, but it will not be contributed to the Blues as all.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

If Canadian fans think that this Winnipeg thing will now set off some sort of cascade of teams moving to Canada, they're sorely mistaken I think.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

If you're stuck on it, you should probably get it right - Bettman never said that there were 30 healthy franchises. Here's what he *did* say:

"With the right economic system, all 30 of our clubs can be healthy and competitive."

Note the words "can be" (as opposed to "are"), and "with the right economic system" (not necessarily what the owners and players ended up agreeing to).

SOURCE: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1902274

Can we sticky that quote (not the entire thread, just the quote) to the main BoH page, so there's no reason to argue "Well Gary said everything is fine, but look what's happening in _______. Gary LIED to us and is mean!!1!". Disproving the same fallacy/ies over and over again is a waste of valuable time and bandwidth

 

[danishh]

I'm not even going to touch on the absurdity of the blues moving. As for hamilton, show me an arena and an owner. I swear we do this dance every week.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Are you actually trying to be an apologist for Gary Bettmans mendacity Dr.No?. A loaf only goes so far.

Who's apologizing for anyone?

If you're going to attack the man, it's only fair to attack him for what he actually said. I understand that it's easier to take what you wanted him to say, and attack him for that instead.

 

[worstfaceoffmanever]

I do not see 30 healthy franchises I see maybe 24 but not 30

Unhealthy Franchises
Phoenix
Florida
Columbus
St. Louis
NY. Islanders
Dallas

Florida's ownership is happy with their arrangement. They qualify for a good chunk of revenue sharing, which helps mitigate their losses.
St. Louis is filling the building again, I seriously doubt that they're in any danger.
The Stars are an asset in Hicks' bankruptcy, which makes it tough to market and even tougher to field a competitive team. With new ownership, they should be fine.
The Islanders aren't in any serious trouble, or Wang would have been actively trying to sell or relocate them at this point. Give them a new arena, and they'll essentially be exactly where the Blackhawks were in their final years under Dollar Bill.

The Blue Jackets should have an eye kept on them, though. Ohio State seems hellbent on sinking that club any way they can to maintain their athletic dominance of the city, and if the team can't get any more money out of their arena, it may be time to back up the U-Hauls.

 

[bluemandan]

Checketts has stepped aside and is no longer trying to buy the team his portion of the team is also for sale. One of Stillman's group members is Steve Maritz who is also a minority owner of the team. So is John Danforth from ...Ralston Purina... hopefully they do not give him any power.

I meant that there had been multiple groups making offers, but your right, there is only one offer currently on the table.

The capital gains tax reason was true but that has come and gone it went into effect January 1st, but they got pissed at Checketts dragging his feet and decided to sell all of their share, before they were only selling 75% of the team.

Ahh, I wasn't sure on when the captial gains tax stuff was taking effect. I'm confused as to why they are continuing to try to sell the team then.

The actual team has not been profitable but the entire operation has been profitable with SPC running the Scottrade center as well. Thats the problem with most sports teams people freak out that the team lost money but do not look at the numbers, part of the teams expenses is the owners paying themselves for the team using the arena and other things like that where money is only changing hands on paper and is going from one bank account to another that are controlled by the same people. The Blues also have a very fat front office with them giving jobs to any friend that wanted one but Armstrong stopped a lot of that when he took over so that will save the team some money.

Again, if the entire operation is profitable, and the capital gains tax thing is over, I'm not sure why they are still selling the team.

This is true as well the Blues do not get all the same city tax breaks as the horribly bad rams or the money grubbing Cardinals.

I'm not sure how much this actually effects the Blues, but I've heard it mentioned as an obstacle to profitability before.

The reopening of the opera house will not have an impact on the teams profitability but like i talked about earlier it will make the overall operation more profitable, but it will not be contributed to the Blues as all.

Ok, I understand. You make a good point, its not like it will be the St. Louis Blues Hockey Club Opera House. But it will certainly help ownership turn a profit.

Do you know if it is ALL for sale as a package (team, arena, opera house, etc.) or if it just the team for sale?

 

[The Note]

I meant that there had been multiple groups making offers, but your right, there is only one offer currently on the table.



Ahh, I wasn't sure on when the captial gains tax stuff was taking effect. I'm confused as to why they are continuing to try to sell the team then.



Again, if the entire operation is profitable, and the capital gains tax thing is over, I'm not sure why they are still selling the team.



I'm not sure how much this actually effects the Blues, but I've heard it mentioned as an obstacle to profitability before.



Ok, I understand. You make a good point, its not like it will be the St. Louis Blues Hockey Club Opera House. But it will certainly help ownership turn a profit.

Do you know if it is ALL for sale as a package (team, arena, opera house, etc.) or if it just the team for sale?

Whoever buys the team gets the Scottrade lease, the Blues, and the Rivermen I believe. And if I'm not mistaken the Opera house is NOT included in that package

 

[TheOrganist]

The Blues? Moving? The team whose fan base sold out the season with a non-playoff team and routinely has top 5 TV ratings among American markets?

 

[BergyMeister]

United States: All your base..er Hockey teams are belong to us. Thanks, Canada

 

[Ten88Nineteen]

Columbus is in a fairly standard situation for a newly franchised sports team. Many people are right in that if they get to the playoffs a couple years in a row, things could very quickly change. If you've ever been to Columbus, you know they have quite a few rabid sports fans considering the other cities in Ohio have most of the pro teams.

As far as I can tell they have one main obstacle other than that - many hockey fans in the area have long been Red Wings or Penguins fans due to the absence of a hockey team nearby. This is of course the case in other locations as well (watch any Pens or Wings game played in Tampa).

To use a comparison from another sport, it's much like how most baseball fans in Florida until recently were Braves fans. The existence of the Marlins and Rays did very little to change that until they became competitive. If the team is good, and they win games, and they're on local TV all the time, they're going to create fans no matter what. Things for baseball have now changed quite a bit, and I think the same could happen following a few good seasons for the Blue Jackets.

 

[sh724]

I meant that there had been multiple groups making offers, but your right, there is only one offer currently on the table.

Ahh, I wasn't sure on when the captial gains tax stuff was taking effect. I'm confused as to why they are continuing to try to sell the team then.

Again, if the entire operation is profitable, and the capital gains tax thing is over, I'm not sure why they are still selling the team.

I'm not sure how much this actually effects the Blues, but I've heard it mentioned as an obstacle to profitability before.

Ok, I understand. You make a good point, its not like it will be the St. Louis Blues Hockey Club Opera House. But it will certainly help ownership turn a profit.

Do you know if it is ALL for sale as a package (team, arena, opera house, etc.) or if it just the team for sale?

Towerbrooke is an investment company and has no desire to be a long term owner of the team, when they bought the team they said they would only be involved for a few years. When they bought the team Checketts sold them on the potential profits involved in owning the team and Towerbrooke believes the amount of money they will make on selling now is a good enough ROI to pull out.

Since Checketts spent a bunch of money on the Opera House and started the whole process of renovating it I would think he would have made money off of it, which would mean whoever holds the arena management contract makes money off of the opera house as well and that contract is part of whats for sale. I couldn't see any business man spending time and money on the opera house if they were not going to see any money in return.

I think the entire package is The Blues, the Rivermen, Scottrade center lease, rivermen building lease, scottrade center management contract, and rivermen stadium management contract.

 

[bluemandan]

Towerbrooke is an investment company and has no desire to be a long term owner of the team, when they bought the team they said they would only be involved for a few years. When they bought the team Checketts sold them on the potential profits involved in owning the team and Towerbrooke believes the amount of money they will make on selling now is a good enough ROI to pull out.

Since Checketts spent a bunch of money on the Opera House and started the whole process of renovating it I would think he would have made money off of it, which would mean whoever holds the arena management contract makes money off of the opera house as well and that contract is part of whats for sale. I couldn't see any business man spending time and money on the opera house if they were not going to see any money in return.

I think the entire package is The Blues, the Rivermen, Scottrade center lease, rivermen building lease, scottrade center management contract, and rivermen stadium management contract.

Nice, so its a 'buy one, get one free' deal.

Thanks for the info, its much appreciated.