The great Kadri vs Kerfoot debate thread.

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Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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By "all these coaches" you mean 2 coaches. And one of them is the same coach who also put Marleau and Johnsson and Hyman on the top PP unit instead of Nylander.

And I don't have to write a letter to Keefe, since he instantly put Nylander on the top unit, like any sensible coach would.

Colorado has a coach as well so that's three coaches actually.

Not every team stacks their top PP unit either. I would have if I was the coach so I actually agree with you but I don't think it's the kind of thing where you can say Babcock was 100% wrong to try it. Though he is of course stubborn as a mule and resistant to change which isn't good.

As far as Marleau goes, Babcock was smart enough to cut his ice time in the playoffs when the results really counted as opposed to just coasting through the last few months of the season. Infact in his last season here, he cut it quite drastically so he's not quite as dumb as some people might think.

It's easy to criticize, especially easy to do so with hindsight and I'm not saying Babs doesn't deserve criticism, no one was happier than I was when he was discarded. Sometimes it's worth remembering though that a lot goes on behind the scenes that we don't know about so perhaps we as fans should be more willing to give coaches the benefit of the doubt every now and then.
 

Gary Nylund

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I don't think anyone's posted these numbers ITT so I will. Just a small part of the big picture of course but still, a pretty important one.

Kerfoot 65 games 28 points 35 point pace

Kadri 51 games 36 points 58 point pace
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
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the majority of that difference being the 18pt pace on the PP vs 4pt pace on the PP. with the note that Kadri has the worst PP pts pace of anyone on colorado's top unit, by a lot.
 

Gary Nylund

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Out of curiosity I had a peek at the COL board, they started a continuation of the trade thread there just Friday so I quickly went through the small number of posts there and this is what I see.

They like Kadri a lot, here are a few comments:

Kadri's been exactly as advertised with his grit and two way play. Love how he sees a potential defensive breakdown in the D zone, and then just charges the puck carrier and takes him out with a big hit.

Kadri brought a legit scoring option to the second line and quickly became the Avs most trusted faceoff man. He has a tendency to go unnoticed for a while in games, but he’s a goal scorer and that’s exactly what Colorado needed.


They seem to like Barrie a lot but were Ok with him going as they have so much young talent on D.

Kerfoot doesn't seem to be missed, this was the only comment about him:
I still cant believe some Leaf fans really bought into this notion that Kerfoot was some kind of defensive savant. Some leafs fans legitimately thought he was going to be in the running for the Selke without ever seeing him play a game for us.

I wish we had gotten a better return for Kadri, specifically I would have preferrred to get one Dman back for him but whatever, I'm sure Dubas did the best we could. I'm OK with the trade but I wish I was as happy as AV's fans seem to be. There seems to be zero doubt in that fan base that Kadri is the superior player but then again, there doesn't seem to be much doubt among our fans either. :)

I've always maintained that playoffs are what it's all about so ... here's hoping Kerfoot kills it, we'll see.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
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Exactly! Not a single stat that exclusively tells the whole story, just a single stat that should be given more weight then total ATOI.

As in out of possible stats out there, nobody's been to offer even one single one that's better than ATOI.

Post 384 I said this, I guess you missed it.
I'm not saying we should look at ATOI and ignore everything else

I hope that helps.

Only one poster in this entire thread has presented one single stat (or even close to just one stat) as a sufficient stat to determine player value.

Gary Nylund.
 

Gary Nylund

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The problem with stats is that some are more useful than others and some are just useless. And no matter what the stat (or several stats) combined is that it's always possible to add more stats to provide more context and there will always be things that stats don't show.

Only one poster in this entire thread has presented one single stat (or even close to just one stat) as a sufficient stat to determine player value.

Gary Nylund.

:laugh::laugh:
 
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Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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I'm basing my opinion on all NHL coaches, not sure where you got the idea that it was just Babcock.
No, you're not basing your opinion on "all coaches". All coaches do not get input into what an individual player's ice time is. One coach does for each player. It's a bad estimation of one guy's opinion; affected by countless factors beyond that opinion. Once again, what a player does in his ice time is more important than the ice time he gets.
I'm all for having a discussion but having to constantly correct your reading comprehension errors is honestly getting tiresome.
I'm comprehending what you're saying perfectly, thanks.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
Out of curiosity I had a peek at the COL board, they started a continuation of the trade thread there just Friday so I quickly went through the small number of posts there and this is what I see.

They like Kadri a lot, here are a few comments:

Kadri's been exactly as advertised with his grit and two way play. Love how he sees a potential defensive breakdown in the D zone, and then just charges the puck carrier and takes him out with a big hit.

Kadri brought a legit scoring option to the second line and quickly became the Avs most trusted faceoff man. He has a tendency to go unnoticed for a while in games, but he’s a goal scorer and that’s exactly what Colorado needed.


They seem to like Barrie a lot but were Ok with him going as they have so much young talent on D.

Kerfoot doesn't seem to be missed, this was the only comment about him:
I still cant believe some Leaf fans really bought into this notion that Kerfoot was some kind of defensive savant. Some leafs fans legitimately thought he was going to be in the running for the Selke without ever seeing him play a game for us.

I wish we had gotten a better return for Kadri, specifically I would have preferrred to get one Dman back for him but whatever, I'm sure Dubas did the best we could. I'm OK with the trade but I wish I was as happy as AV's fans seem to be. There seems to be zero doubt in that fan base that Kadri is the superior player but then again, there doesn't seem to be much doubt among our fans either. :)

I've always maintained that playoffs are what it's all about so ... here's hoping Kerfoot kills it, we'll see.

Easy answer to each fans' take on the trade:

COL: 107pt pace (#4)
TOR: 95pt pace (#13)
 

Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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No, you're not basing your opinion on "all coaches". All coaches do not get input into what an individual player's ice time is. One coach does for each player. It's a bad estimation of one guy's opinion; affected by countless factors beyond that opinion. Once again, what a player does in his ice time is more important than the ice time he gets.

I'm comprehending what you're saying perfectly, thanks.

That doesn't appear to be the case from reading your posts.
 
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Gary Nylund

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Oct 10, 2013
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Easy answer to each fans' take on the trade:

COL: 107pt pace (#4)
TOR: 95pt pace (#13)

Yes you've already told us that you're smart and the average fan is dumb. I however am confident that the average fan is a lot smarter then you think. I'm also not quite sure that anyone's as smart as you think you are.
 
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zeke

The Dube Abides
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Yes you've already told us that you're smart and the average fan is dumb. I however am confident that the average fan is a lot smarter then you think. I'm also not quite sure that anyone's as smart as you think you are.

There is literally not one thing that Colorado fans aren't happy about this year.
 

Morbo

The Annihilator
Jan 14, 2003
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If I could sub in Kadri for Kerfoot for these playoffs, I'd do it without hesitation even if was to fill the identical role.

hey you know the numbers and the history there, if you still want to do something that doesn't make sense because of your feelings all the power to you.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
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the majority of that difference being the 18pt pace on the PP vs 4pt pace on the PP. with the note that Kadri has the worst PP pts pace of anyone on colorado's top unit, by a lot.
Just curious, and I may have missed it, but how do Barrie and Kadri's PP production compare this year?
 
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hotpaws

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Nov 21, 2009
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hey you know the numbers and the history there, if you still want to do something that doesn't make sense because of your feelings all the power to you.
the last 2 playoffs

Kerfoot , 18 games - 2g - 3a - 5pts
Kadri , 6 games -1g - 3a - 4pts

i'm not seeing what your getting so excited about having Kerfoot with us for these playoffs , hopefully he turns around his pitiful playoff performances with the Avs
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
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the last 2 playoffs

Kerfoot , 18 games - 2g - 3a - 5pts
Kadri , 6 games -1g - 3a - 4pts

i'm not seeing what your getting so excited about having Kerfoot with us for these playoffs , hopefully he turns around his pitiful playoff performances with the Avs

Kerfoot was also a rookie and sophomore player over those games.

Kadri only had 6 points in hist first 13 playoff games as an NHLer (and had 3 more years of development time between those 2 series)
 

Wafflewhipper

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Jan 18, 2014
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The great kadri kerfoot debate ha. Yeah right! When some here want or need a stat to know who is better, that enough for me to know what I’m dealing with. Hopefully Kerfoot improves like Hyman has. Not interested in this debate of B.S one bit ha
 
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hotpaws

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Nov 21, 2009
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Kerfoot was also a rookie and sophomore player over those games.

Kadri only had 6 points in hist first 13 playoff games as an NHLer
so Kads only avg about 1/2 point a game which is much better and you think that helps you defend Kerfoot ?

and Kerfoot was 23-24 during his rookie and sophomore seasons so hardly a kid but i guess we'll overlook that as well as how much his production dropped from the regular season

but hey props for coming with a spin so quickly , your quick wits will be needed to defend him if he shits the bed this off season as well

i'm thinking we'll continue bashing Andy regardless how he plays if the team falters since the great Dube didn't acquire him
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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so Kads only avg about 1/2 point a game which is much better and you think that helps you defend Kerfoot ?

and Kerfoot was 23-24 during his rookie and sophomore seasons so hardly a kid but i guess we'll overlook that as well as how much his production dropped from the regular season

You're talking about a 2 point difference over a sample size of less than 20 games.

I suppose if Kerfoot plays well you'll conveniently forget this thread exists.
 
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