The Great Fight Debate thread

[LouJersey]

It's high time the Mods locked up this Sheep in Wolves Clothing Part III thread, because this debate is ridiculous.

Neither side will admit the other has valid points.

Neither side can actually prove their viewpoint is true or not.

What a waste of time.

It’s a good vent thread,both sides make valid points, plus I like watching Joe win this debate all the time

 

[Baddkarma]

Fighting is dead these players are scared ****less of long term head injuries

Backes was sticking up for teammate s and even at the age legendary Dave Schultz was getting pummeled by young tough guys.

After back to back head trauma against Edmonton last month he looks to me playing a very concerned game and I sense he never wants to fight again

I care about McAvoy and what’s going on with him

Fighting is done these players and families have seen the fallout

I wonder how Vaakanainen's family feels about that elbow? How about all the concussions caused by the boards and glass systems that have no give now to give the wine cheese and crowd the HD view of the game?

There is way more to the CTE issue than fighting.

As fighting winds down the warning now rings more true than ever, the rats will run this game...

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

I been to 5 games

Who ar the 5 tough guys on Canucks

Want to see if we agree

I'll play this game.

Gudbranson, Archibald, Virtanen, Roussel, and I suppose Beagle who does not play.

Vancouver is not a tough team either which makes this even sadder.

It does feel like outside of a handful, and this is leaguewide, players are secretly very happy the NHL has become a systems, unemotional, soft league where going through the motions and collecting large pay checks is acceptable.

 

[DKH]

I'll play this game.

Gudbranson, Archibald, Virtanen, Roussel, and I suppose Beagle who does not play.

Vancouver is not a tough team either which makes this even sadder.

It does feel like outside of a handful, and this is leaguewide, players are secretly very happy the NHL has become a systems, unemotional, soft league where going through the motions and collecting large pay checks is acceptable.

Good call

We struggled after 3 guys and I did not think of Beagle

The problem is it’s soft but why are so many concussions related to hits

 

[DKH]

I wonder how Vaakanainen's family feels about that elbow? How about all the concussions caused by the boards and glass systems that have no give now to give the wine cheese and crowd the HD view of the game?

There is way more to the CTE issue than fighting.

As fighting winds down the warning now rings more true than ever, the rats will run this game...

I boxed as a teen in a club and had no idea about concussions

I never would have walked in to that place today knowing what I know unless I had to use their bathroom

 

[Baddkarma]

I'll play this game.

Gudbranson, Archibald, Virtanen, Roussel, and I suppose Beagle who does not play.

Vancouver is not a tough team either which makes this even sadder.

It does feel like outside of a handful, and this is leaguewide, players are secretly very happy the NHL has become a systems, unemotional, soft league where going through the motions and collecting large pay checks is acceptable.

You are so right.

I cant wait to see the NHL market that.

Its no wonder that the NHL and its partners always go back to the 70s and 80s to gain eyeballs because the new NHL has become tofu.

 

[Baddkarma]

I boxed as a teen in a club and had no idea about concussions

I never would have walked in to that place today knowing what I know unless I had to use their bathroom

Judging by your response, your concerns may indeed be valid. Btw, I also was part of a club as a youth and part of the science is not let your opponent land a clean blow.

One item that is not being stated is that alot of old timers are completely saddened as we watch the game that created our heroes devolves into a game we cant recognize anymore and flatly wont like or support in another 10-15 years.

I get it...

 

[GloryDaze4877]

You either:

a) really, really don't get it
or
b) are being intentionally ignorant so that you can keep your dumbass narrative.

What are you obviously missing/avoiding here is that: in a game where the Bruins are being absolutely embarrassed on home ice (with the score well out of hand and the Bruins not even putting up a whimper while they try and run out the clock) a Canucks player thinks nothing about unloading hard on a prone Bruins winger.

Think about that.


This team (overall) is soft and all the Sweeney apologists in the world couldn't talk a single NHL team out of thinking that whilst they waltz around our home ice.

I do actually commend Krug (and Marchand earlier against Ottawa) for stepping up but, again, the question here is:

Q) why are teams so quick to run our players late in a blowout game, concuss multiple rookies with cheap shots etc?
A) It's because they know the Bruins response will be laughable.

Archibald had to answer to the mighty-mite Krug? Wow, he must have been terrified! I'm sure every Canucks player out there had their head on a swivel waiting for the Bruins to finish their checks hard(er) in response!


I would agree with your last point: I spent thousands flying to Vancouver for the Bruins game there last year and the crowd wanted Marchand's blood before the game even started and called for it every shift. Gudbranson was happy to oblige and the 6'5 Dman absolutely targeted Marchand over and over and Chara (who was always on the ice w Marchand) didn't bat an eye. McQuaid was went and talked to him during a TV timeout and it calmed down some, but by then it was another blowout.

I didn’t respond to this right away. Anybody who has coached or had a kid play sports knows about the 24 hour rule. If I had responded last night, the reply would have been harsh. I didn’t want to do that because generally speaking, I think you are a very knowledgeable poster and believe you played the game at a fairly high level. That said, for whatever reason, I think that fighting and physicality is a “blind spot” for you. We all have them, myself included.

To address the questions you posed above, the answer is no to both a and b.

I do “get it”, and would argue that I “get it” more than you do when it comes to this discussion. As I said before, I love physical hockey and my kid plays the game exactly the way many in this thread love to see it played (personally, I wish he was a little less chippy and concentrated on his skating more).

I have a hard time discussing this with you rationally because I know any little perceived “softness” is going to set you off in this thread. I went back and looked (several times) at the play where Archibald supposedly disrespected the B’s.

It was completely and totally clean. He didn’t charge, he didn’t elevate, he didn’t use his elbow. He just finished his check on Nordstrom, who had just gotten rid of the puck. It might have looked a little bad at first because Archibald caught him on the low boards in front of the bench, and Nordstrom fell over. He immediately got up and was not the worse for wear in any way.

The premise of your latest post, that Archibald “unloaded hard on a prone Bruin’s winger”, is something that you created in your own mind to justify another rant about the B’s being soft. Go back and look. The hit was not particular hard and Nordstrom was 100% upright when the contact was initiated. If you try to say otherwise, I would contend that it’s you (not me) that are being “intentionally ignorant so you can keep up your dumb ass narrative”.

Back to the game itself...I disagree that the B’s went out with a whimper. There were guys still playing hard (glad to see Heinen get off the schnide with that PP tally), even though the game ended when Rask misplayed that puck and the lead went up to three at 7-4. If the Canucks had been running guys all night and the B’s didn’t respond with the game out of hand, I would have been upset, but that wasn’t the case at all. Other than the slightly high hit on Pasta by Gudbranson, there was none of that.

The only issue I had with that whole sequence at the end of the game was with the personnel on the ice when the hit occurred. If you want to be mad at someone at all, it should be Cassidy and the coaching staff. There was a whistle with 2:35 left and a delay as the refs looked at the replay to see if the puck crossed the line. At that point, the B’s had 47, 27, 20, 46, 74 on the ice. The Canucks had their “heaviest” line on the ice (which really isn’t that heavy) with Archibald and Virtanen. There was another whistle with 2:30 left after a Rask save, so Cassidy had not one, but two opportunities to change out the F’s and match 4th line with 4th line. Kuraly, Wagner and Acciari are not fighters, but they are more than physical enough to handle the Canucks 4th line. I’m pretty sure that Cassidy referenced this issue with some of his postgame comments about the staff needing to make sure players “know their roles”.

For the umpteenth time, I would love to see the B’s add a big, physical wing that can play the game. Either a guy that could slot in for Acciari on the 4th line, or even better someone that could skate in the Top 9, and provide scoring and grit. The issue is that there are not a lot of these guys available and the cost would be prohibitive. These types of players need to be “homegrown” if you don’t want to overpay (hello Zac Rinaldo).

The idea that Sweeney wants a soft team is laughable. He didn’t play the game that way and he has gone out and tried to acquire or sign players that would address that area (Rinaldo, Beleskey, Backes, Wagner). Unfortunately, he seems to have targeted the wrong guys (jury is still out on Wagner) in his quest for tough players, but the failure wasn’t for lack of trying.

 

[easton117]

Good call

We struggled after 3 guys and I did not think of Beagle

The problem is it’s soft but why are so many concussions related to hits

Is it an awareness thing? Young players especially seem oblivious to where the high danger areas are. Or stickhandle staring at their laces.

Bjork springs to mind here though he’s gotten better this year.

I know he coughed the puck up, but the other night where Backes was in the trolley tracks, he had his head up and saw the other guy coming.

If that is Bjork or Donato I’m that instance I’m wondering if they’re still peeling him off the ice

 

[LouJersey]

Bruins don't fight......checks hockeyfights.com.....league leader, Bruins...

Bruins don't stick up for each other.....checks hockeyfights.com....last three fights were sticking up for each other...

But but but but the Bruins fighting are too small.

Did anyone else not see Gudbranson shit himself when Chara came calling? Does that not count? he was quiet the entire rest of the game.

 

[LouJersey]

Brouwer went with Kassian and Boro with Reaves last night, wondering if they were too small too?

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Is it an awareness thing? Young players especially seem oblivious to where the high danger areas are. Or stickhandle staring at their laces.

Bjork springs to mind here though he’s gotten better this year.

I know he coughed the puck up, but the other night where Backes was in the trolley tracks, he had his head up and saw the other guy coming.

If that is Bjork or Donato I’m that instance I’m wondering if they’re still peeling him off the ice

This point was brought up earlier (may have been DKH) and he suggested that the young players in the game today don’t have this “awareness” about fighting and physicality because it’s being systematically bred out of players at a young age, and they carry these traits with them all the way to the NHL.

Hockey is still a physical game with physical players, but the emphasis now at all levels is very clearly on skill development over physicality. The B’s have done well with their NCAA scouting and the college kids fight less than any other major junior league, which may exaggerate this trend with the B’s roster.

It’s kind of ironic that the B’s prospect that is most physical and skilled is Frederic, who came out of the NCAA. I’m not sure if the coaches have asked him to play physically or if it’s just his nature, but he’s a kid we could see sooner rather than later because he can play that way.

 

[neelynugs]

the only issue i had with last night was krug trying to fight archibald. i'm gonna assume he didn't know
who archibald was, and that he assumed the hit wasn't clean. our best offensive defenseman doesn't
need to be challenging a guy with over 30 pro fights in a game that's already over.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

the only issue i had with last night was krug trying to fight archibald. i'm gonna assume he didn't know
who archibald was, and that he assumed the hit wasn't clean. our best offensive defenseman doesn't
need to be challenging a guy with over 30 pro fights in a game that's already over.

Agreed.

But this was completely on Krug. I give him and Marchand props for dropping them, but in this case, there was zero reason for him to do so.

 

[easton117]

the only issue i had with last night was krug trying to fight archibald. i'm gonna assume he didn't know
who archibald was, and that he assumed the hit wasn't clean. our best offensive defenseman doesn't
need to be challenging a guy with over 30 pro fights in a game that's already over.

Don’t know much about him. But thought Archibald was a pretty good guy about it and didn’t take Krug to pound town.

More of a wrestle this little fellow down nicely type rumble lol

 

[Chief Nine]

Bruins don't fight......checks hockeyfights.com.....league leader, Bruins...

Bruins don't stick up for each other.....checks hockeyfights.com....last three fights were sticking up for each other...

But but but but the Bruins fighting are too small.

Did anyone else not see Gudbranson **** himself when Chara came calling? Does that not count? he was quiet the entire rest of the game.

And the weeds always seems to part in this thread after every loss (and every other thread that can be infected) with this garbage notion that:

1) The team is soft (I hate this crap because anyone who plays pro hockey for a living is one hell of a long way from soft no matter how "passive" they seem on the ice)

2) Any fan who sanely rationalizes and realizes that the game is changing and has changed is an unmentionable word or worse (I believe @Gee Wally had to delete a post for this) It seems that to galvanize the so-called "tough guy" narrative you have to insult everyone who doesn't bow to your toughness narrative. Get lost with this trash.

3) Having "grit" and "sandpaper" and guys who don't bathe and shave for months will solve all the team's issues

4) The incessant mindless insistence that size is the be all and end all of what's wrong with this team

As @BruinDust said, this is a waste of time but now the same posters are infecting every thread they can with the same old crap with the angry posts insulting anyone who disagrees with them. It's really become a major annoyance on this board.

Saying the same things over and over and over in every GDT and other thread isn't going to change anything and the mind numbingly insane trope that everyone "on the other side" wants soccer on ice and no contact hockey is just flat out false.

Me and just about every other poster who has tried to show that nothing we say or do here is going to change where the game has and is heading gets accused of this BS. Every single one of us has said repeatedly that we all love physical hockey and yes, even fights when needed. This angry bunch of posters who come on here every day and insult anyone who they think doesn't pine for the good old days of smashmouth hockey is just plain ridiculous.

Grow up.

 

[Rubber Biscuit]

Bruins don't fight......checks hockeyfights.com.....league leader, Bruins...

Bruins don't stick up for each other.....checks hockeyfights.com....last three fights were sticking up for each other...

But but but but the Bruins fighting are too small.

Did anyone else not see Gudbranson **** himself when Chara came calling? Does that not count? he was quiet the entire rest of the game.

It's too bad that this will be ignored.

We heard last year about how they didn't fight enough. They were 5th in fighting majors. Now they lead the league!

 

[Chief Nine]

It's too bad that this will be ignored.

We heard last year about how they didn't fight enough. They were 5th in fighting majors. Now they lead the league!

It'll be ignored like every other fact that gets in the way of an agenda

 

[DKH]

the only issue i had with last night was krug trying to fight archibald. i'm gonna assume he didn't know
who archibald was, and that he assumed the hit wasn't clean. our best offensive defenseman doesn't
need to be challenging a guy with over 30 pro fights in a game that's already over.

You get mad enough it doesn’t matter who it is in my mind

Rage or even standing up for a family member doesn’t see the opponent

We had a saying if someone scews you ‘be like Mike’.....Tyson or Corleone

Hey I was young but the premise was ‘whatever it takes’

Nowadays

What’s so funny ‘bout peace, love, and understanding’ is the way to go

 

[Ratty]

Done with the fighting vs. conscientious objector debate.But I do object to the attribution to those who love the game of hockey for its skating, passing, skill AND good, clean hitting,as Chardonnay,Brie tasting pu$$ys.

They support and cheer for the same teams, just without the extra curriculars so many espouse.

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

The qualifying going on in here is great.

"They don't stand up and fight enough!"

...lose that point when they do...

...I can't admit I am wrong...."Why are only the smaller guys standing up and fighting!"

 

[Over the volcano]

Nothing wrong at all with what Krug did nor with Marchand. Would like to see some of the bigger guys on the team be as willing.

 

[Rubber Biscuit]

Ten years ago there were .60 fights per game. So far this year there are .18 fights per game. If you can't recognize that the game is changing, you need to open your f***ing eyes. Just admitting it doesn't mean you have to support it, but it's the truth and it'll be the truth whether you want to believe it or not.

 

[LouJersey]

It's too bad that this will be ignored.

We heard last year about how they didn't fight enough. They were 5th in fighting majors. Now they lead the league!

I love that Marchand and Krug stand up. They were the closest and took matters into their own hands. Noel too. Had they skated past and did nothing, these same people would be like, wow Krug watched that and skated right by. He mans up and fights, now he's too small and shouldn't be doing that....we should have this mystical player that will always retaliate and always be on the ice at the exact moment there is a LEGAL check to take matters into his own hands...

I would take an upgrade on the 4th line...physical presence, but find me one that's available. Remember Gabrielle? Hargrove? Dempsey?

 

[Rubber Biscuit]

I had trouble finding a site with a simple hit leaderboard, but by my rough count the B's are 18th in the league in hits (thought I could have miscounted). There are a couple of teams close to them in raw totals, so I'd like to see the per game numbers.

I was mildly surprised looking at the hit totals. Didn't seem like any real correlation between hit totals and standings. Mostly Western Conference teams below the B's, including Nashville and Winnipeg who I thought have developed a reputation for being tough.

If anyone knows a site that shows hit totals for teams instead of individual players, please share it