The Great Fight Debate thread

[Sheppy]

Jordin Tootoo hit the nail on the head during his interview on Spittin Chiclets.

 

[Fenian24]

You sure opine a lot on something you hardly care about.

True but like any divorce after 40 plus years you try to hold out hope that something can be worked out. Bettman being fired, soccer fans masquerading as hockey fans going away, the game being half as good as it was in the 70's, 80's and 90's, Sweeney being abducted by aliens and not returned, me winning millions of dollars and moving to Iceland or Ireland. All about hope and a positive attitude.

 

[patty59]

True but like any divorce after 40 plus years you try to hold out hope that something can be worked out. Bettman being fired, soccer fans masquerading as hockey fans going away, the game being half as good as it was in the 70's, 80's and 90's, Sweeney being abducted by aliens and not returned, me winning millions of dollars and moving to Iceland or Ireland. All about hope and a positive attitude.

The game has never had more talent or skill or more fans than it does today. Gary Bettman being fired won't bring back the good ole days.

 

[Roll 4 Lines]

There's no doubt in my mind that repeated blows to the head CAN cause CTE. That doesn't mean that everyone who's ever fought in the NHL WILL have CTE.

One guy may have 400 fights and not show symptoms outwardly. (Although as Lou wrote, we may never know what they're feeling.)

Conversely, someone else may fall once, hit their head and be changed forever.

And yes, Lafontaine and others who were not fighters may show symptoms. Even legal hits can cause your brain to move inside your head, not simply head shots.

But to say that fighting does not cause CTE because Taz or Toccchet don't show it.....find an interview with a retired boxer.

For the most part, the interviews are not pretty.

 

[Chief Nine]

There's no doubt in my mind that repeated blows to the head CAN cause CTE. That doesn't mean that everyone who's ever fought in the NHL WILL have CTE.

One guy may have 400 fights and not show symptoms outwardly. (Although as Lou wrote, we may never know what they're feeling.)

Conversely, someone else may fall once, hit their head and be changed forever.

And yes, Lafontaine and others who were not fighters may show symptoms. Even legal hits can cause your brain to move inside your head, not simply head shots.

But to say that fighting does not cause CTE because Taz or Toccchet don't show it.....find an interview with a retired boxer.

For the most part, the interviews are not pretty.

I know it's fiction, but watch Requiem for a Heavyweight with Anthony Quinn, Jackie Gleason and Mickey Rooney. Great gritty movie about the life of a washed up boxer. Not a pretty picture...

 

[sarge88]

Could it be that the keyboard jockeys are wrong about fighting and it’s place in hockey? Maybe this kind of fighting is “ok” with some people?

The Fight that Spurred the Comeback

Well, despite players saying for years that tough teammates give them more leeway to play their game and offer protection, they know better....so in this case, I'm sure the players are wrong again.

 

[Rubber Biscuit]

Well, despite players saying for years that tough teammates give them more leeway to play their game and offer protection, they know better....so in this case, I'm sure the players are wrong again.

I don't doubt that it offers guys some extra space to play their game. but the idea that having a heavyweight today somehow saves them from big hits and cheap shots (which is what often gets argued) is directly contradicted by what we've seen in Boston over the last several years

 

[Dicky113]

It’s actually interesting. We have replaced fighters with these high energy hitters that quite often cross the line and blindside skilled players, feels like that has happened a lot lately. I’m not sure getting rid of fights has the intended effect of reducing the amount of head injuries, in fact I have a feeling it’s doing the opposite because if you can’t fight, these less skilled guys are going to be looking for huge hits to get noticed and have impact

 

[sarge88]

I don't doubt that it offers guys some extra space to play their game. but the idea that having a heavyweight today somehow saves them from big hits and cheap shots (which is what often gets argued) is directly contradicted by what we've seen in Boston over the last several years

Unless, there were even more cheap shots that were prevented by the presence of the tough players they had.

 

[LSCII]

Unless, there were even more cheap shots that were prevented by the presence of the tough players they had.

You're a smart guy Sarge. So let me ask you. Do you think Raffi Torres shied away from a cheap shot because the other team had a fighter? or Sean Avery? Or Tom Wilson? Or even Brad Marchand? Guys that blur the line regularly have been doing it for years, even when there legitimately were fighters on the other side. It may have meant they had to stand up for some of their actions, but it surely didn't stop them from doing it.

 

[BNHL]

We have no idea what they may or may not be feeling.

You're right,but in the middle of this CTE issue,you'd think they'd come forward,along with hundreds of others.

 

[Sheppy]

You're a smart guy Sarge. So let me ask you. Do you think Raffi Torres shied away from a cheap shot because the other team had a fighter? or Sean Avery? Or Tom Wilson? Or even Brad Marchand? Guys that blur the line regularly have been doing it for years, even when there legitimately were fighters on the other side. It may have meant they had to stand up for some of their actions, but it surely didn't stop them from doing it.

While he may not have, It did make me feel better when McQuaid dusted him right then and there. Something we won't see from our current team, unfortunately.

 

[sarge88]

You're a smart guy Sarge. So let me ask you. Do you think Raffi Torres shied away from a cheap shot because the other team had a fighter? or Sean Avery? Or Tom Wilson? Or even Brad Marchand? Guys that blur the line regularly have been doing it for years, even when there legitimately were fighters on the other side. It may have meant they had to stand up for some of their actions, but it surely didn't stop them from doing it.

I have learned not to use absolutes in the vast majority of situations in life, however, I am relatively certain that of those players you've listed, none have ever been intimidated into not delivering a cheap shot.

I am equally as certain, however, that there are other, less crazy/reckless players who have been intimidated enough to play differently, at least for a shift/game or playoff series.

I'll ask you this, can you with 100% certainty say that, in the tens of thousands of games played in the NHL, that nobody was ever intimidated into toeing the line or toning down their game because they did not want to answer for it?

Seems very unlikely, based on the sheer number of games played, players involved and the comments of some players about it.

 

[Gee Wally]

Re: Bettman.

While I personally have no love for the guy I find it remarkable that many believe he is ruining the game or it would be better off if he was gone.

Fact is he is an employee of the owners. He executes whatever their budiness plan/desires happen to be.

No different at all than a CEO answers to the Board of Directors in any corporation.

Truth is he has hit it out of the park for them consistently and thats why he gets rewarded with extensions.

Hate him all you want thats your right. But you be barking up the wrong tree.

 

[KrejciMVP]

At the end of the day I think there will be a correlation with less fighting and lower TV ratings. I love hockey and all but the added entertainment factors being taken away incent me to tune in less and less, nothing personal to hockey, it just gets boring with no drama. I'm at the point where the only must see sport for me is the NFL, and even that's getting less physical.

 

[LouJersey]

You're right,but in the middle of this CTE issue,you'd think they'd come forward,along with hundreds of others.

I think it's a personal choice maybe. Some of those old guys are fiercely loyal and maybe don't want to be in the "limelight".

 

[Gee Wally]

At the end of the day I think there will be a correlation with less fighting and lower TV ratings. I love hockey and all but the added entertainment factors being taken away incent me to tune in less and less, nothing personal to hockey, it just gets boring with no drama. I'm at the point where the only must see sport for me is the NFL, and even that's getting less physical.

Perhaps viewership will drop. It remains stable but perhaps.
Two things the league has in its favor is first time. Anyone born this century this is essentially the game they know. They will be the next wave.
And what I believe is historic but not spoken about here is the revenue generator just signed. Never underestimate gambling and sposts marriage.

Gambling deal signals new era for NHL - The Boston Globe

The new age has arrived. Or at least the first hint of sunlight, and all the betting action it will grow, is officially on hockey’s horizon.
The NHL and MGM, the gambling and casino giant, cut their deal that slowly but insidiously will make betting central to the NHL fan experience, be it for patrons (just over 22 million last season, league-wide) in arenas, or those listening and/or watching at home, office or ships at sea.

Details of the NHL-MGM deal were kept to a minimum, but the crux of it has MGM paying a substantial (undisclosed) fee to the league for all the data it can mine off its product. MGM then will take all those proprietary numbers to compute win/loss betting lines, and more important, the more lucrative proposition bets (example: Will Brad Marchand score a hat trick tonight?), for the betting public to devour.

 

[LouJersey]

I have learned not to use absolutes in the vast majority of situations in life, however, I am relatively certain that of those players you've listed, none have ever been intimidated into not delivering a cheap shot.

I am equally as certain, however, that there are other, less crazy/reckless players who have been intimidated enough to play differently, at least for a shift/game or playoff series.

I'll ask you this, can you with 100% certainty say that, in the tens of thousands of games played in the NHL, that nobody was ever intimidated into toeing the line or toning down their game because they did not want to answer for it?

Seems very unlikely, based on the sheer number of games played, players involved and the comments of some players about it.

I think many players "stay in line" knowing they could get their ass kicked. I also think the league has a bunch of sociopaths that no matter what you do they will act a certain way. There are certainly some players that are still intimidated.

You read about enforcers not being able to sleep knowing they were going to have to fight the next game, can you imagine some of the non fighters?

 

[LouJersey]

At the end of the day I think there will be a correlation with less fighting and lower TV ratings. I love hockey and all but the added entertainment factors being taken away incent me to tune in less and less, nothing personal to hockey, it just gets boring with no drama. I'm at the point where the only must see sport for me is the NFL, and even that's getting less physical.

I have had Center Ice for however long it's been out, and I watched hockey every night and 2-3 games on the weekend a lot of times. I don't do that anymore. I loved watching the fights and rivalries but for the most part they are gone. I would watch the Buffalo-Toronto games. Flames-Nucks. Lots of them. The regular season game for me just doesn't really make me want to tune in like I did. I will still watch every Bruins game. I watch the Devils when they are on when the Bruins aren't. Rangers sometimes. I'd honestly rather watch something on Netflix now then a game if the B's aren't in it.

Now, the NHL still gets my center ice money, so I doubt they care.

 

[sarge88]

I think many players "stay in line" knowing they could get their ass kicked. I also think the league has a bunch of sociopaths that no matter what you do they will act a certain way. There are certainly some players that are still intimidated.

You read about enforcers not being able to sleep knowing they were going to have to fight the next game, can you imagine some of the non fighters?

I agree entirely.

I just get frustrated that so many people think it’s an absolute one way or the other.

You summed it up perfectly.

 

[LSCII]

While he may not have, It did make me feel better when McQuaid dusted him right then and there. Something we won't see from our current team, unfortunately.

Yeah, back when they signed McQuaid and Killer to those extensions, I thought that would mean one was going to be the odd man out and I'd have preferred to keep McQuaid because of his willingness to stand up for his teammates. Miller has really improved though, so I get why McQ was the odd man out.

 

[Sheppy]

I think many players "stay in line" knowing they could get their ass kicked. I also think the league has a bunch of sociopaths that no matter what you do they will act a certain way. There are certainly some players that are still intimidated.

You read about enforcers not being able to sleep knowing they were going to have to fight the next game, can you imagine some of the non fighters?

I remember when Lucic ran Miller, no one did a thing... then the next game Gaustad squared off with him and looked like he was legit shitting his pants during the square off. You could see absolute fear in his eyes.

 

[Sheppy]

Yeah, back when they signed McQuaid and Killer to those extensions, I thought that would mean one was going to be the odd man out and I'd have preferred to keep McQuaid because of his willingness to stand up for his teammates. Miller has really improved though, so I get why McQ was the odd man out.

I think Miller is the better player, but he picks his spots a lot more than McQuaid. He's also had a rough go with his shoulder and now is recovering from a broken hand. I'm not sure how much we can lean on a guy like that to enforce in certain situations.

Well, I guess we have Marchand.

 

[KrejciMVP]

I have had Center Ice for however long it's been out, and I watched hockey every night and 2-3 games on the weekend a lot of times. I don't do that anymore. I loved watching the fights and rivalries but for the most part they are gone. I would watch the Buffalo-Toronto games. Flames-Nucks. Lots of them. The regular season game for me just doesn't really make me want to tune in like I did. I will still watch every Bruins game. I watch the Devils when they are on when the Bruins aren't. Rangers sometimes. I'd honestly rather watch something on Netflix now then a game if the B's aren't in it.

Now, the NHL still gets my center ice money, so I doubt they care.

I'm in the exact same boat, will watch as many Bruins game as I can and I follow the local team here bc it's hard to escape it.

Used to stay up for the west coast games all the time, maybe I'm just getting older but it seem lots of these games in the NHL are just going through the motions so there is no real reason to stay up minus catching a few of the elite western players.

 

[patty59]

I think many players "stay in line" knowing they could get their ass kicked. I also think the league has a bunch of sociopaths that no matter what you do they will act a certain way. There are certainly some players that are still intimidated.

You read about enforcers not being able to sleep knowing they were going to have to fight the next game, can you imagine some of the non fighters?

Players don't stay in line because there's an enforcer out there. Every time there is a dirty hit the linesman grabs the culprit and gets him off the ice as fast as he can. Then maybe a few months later if the teams play again that year he has to fight someone.

 

[LouJersey]

Players don't stay in line because there's an enforcer out there. Every time there is a dirty hit the linesman grabs the culprit and gets him off the ice as fast as he can. Then maybe a few months later if the teams play again that year he has to fight someone.

I meant stay in line because there is a possibility you may have to fight period. Not vs an enforcer. I mean overall, they may have to answer for a hit (even if it's legal) never mind taking a liberty.. I used to hang with 8-9 other guys as a young man and we'd go out and have fun...and you always had the two guys who liked to start fights, two that would come to your aid and the other six were intimidated by it all. I think it's human nature.

 

[LSCII]

I have learned not to use absolutes in the vast majority of situations in life, however, I am relatively certain that of those players you've listed, none have ever been intimidated into not delivering a cheap shot.

I am equally as certain, however, that there are other, less crazy/reckless players who have been intimidated enough to play differently, at least for a shift/game or playoff series.

I'll ask you this, can you with 100% certainty say that, in the tens of thousands of games played in the NHL, that nobody was ever intimidated into toeing the line or toning down their game because they did not want to answer for it?

Seems very unlikely, based on the sheer number of games played, players involved and the comments of some players about it.

Could some players have been intimidated? Sure, I suppose. I would say that given the sport and it's physicality, any players that were afraid would be few and far between. But anything is possible.

 

[LouJersey]

I'm in the exact same boat, will watch as many Bruins game as I can and I follow the local team here bc it's hard to escape it.

Used to stay up for the west coast games all the time, maybe I'm just getting older but it seem lots of these games in the NHL are just going through the motions so there is no real reason to stay up minus catching a few of the elite western players.

Where I hit the NHL in the pocket book is the live games. Went from 10-15 to 3-4 to probably 2 this year. The games aren't worth my money anymore. Now, I'm not seeing my favorite team obviously, I would get season tickets.

 

[BNHL]

I think it's a personal choice maybe. Some of those old guys are fiercely loyal and maybe don't want to be in the "limelight".

We're gonna disagree,if you have had several concussions or sub concussions you should quit. I think we're seeing a tiny fraction.even if everybody who ever played was forthright. We're changing the whole nature of the game because of a few that we know about. 5%? 10%? 20% of those that ever played?

 

[Don Cherry]

What makes me laugh is the stiffs like Nick Boynton simply trying to cash in. I even read one article that referred to him as "former NHL enforcer Nick Boynton".

Like Boynton had no idea that punches to his big, under-bite jaw might cause him problems. All he's doing is biting the hand that overfed him for so long. I'll never forget the beating Looch gave him.

 

[smithformeragent]

Where I hit the NHL in the pocket book is the live games. Went from 10-15 to 3-4 to probably 2 this year. The games aren't worth my money anymore. Now, I'm not seeing my favorite team obviously, I would get season tickets.

This.

The quality of the product has declined severely. Whether it’s the fighting or the intensity or the rivalries, hatred whatever.

The game feels generic and lifeless. Personality is severely lacking.

Whatever momentum the game had post lockout with the rule changes has been lost. I liked how often they played within the division post lockout.

It’s inexcusable to play Montreal 4 times per year.

I used to be good for 5 or more games per year. Now it’s 1 or two max.

I no longer make it a priority to be in front of the TV to watch live due to the amount of dud games.