News Article: The future of Doug Wilson in San Jose

[magic school bus]

Boughner really needs to go, I believe this team plays less than the sum of its parts and thats the coaches fault. I think this team could be a lot better simply by improving the coaching

They gave this group 2 different coaches. At some point the blame has to shift to the players (and the people responsible for choosing them).

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

They gave this group 2 different coaches. At some point the blame has to shift to the players (and the people responsible for choosing them).

Have you seen a game this season? It looks like they just skate around no idea who is supposed to do what, especially in the defensive zone

 

[Sharksrule04]

Have you seen a game this season? It looks like they just skate around no idea who is supposed to do what, especially in the defensive zone

If you think professional hockey players don't know what they're supposed to do and a coach is the only thing guiding them, I'm not sure what to tell you. Coaches are super overrated for the most part at the NHL level. Yes there are some great coaches but IMO they're like maybe 20% of the winning recipe. The biggest coaching impact at the NHL level is with their voice and respect from the players. Players will always be the biggest contributor to success and failure. Simply changing the coach (again) without overhauling the lineup drastically is a waste of time.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

If you think professional hockey players don't know what they're supposed to do and a coach is the only thing guiding them, I'm not sure what to tell you. Coaches are super overrated for the most part at the NHL level. Yes there are some great coaches but IMO they're like maybe 20% of the winning recipe. The biggest coaching impact at the NHL level is with their voice and respect from the players. Players will always be the biggest contributor to success and failure. Simply changing the coach (again) without overhauling the lineup drastically is a waste of time.

I dont agree with a single thing you have said. If you dont notice a difference in how a team plays under different coaches, I'm not sure what to tell you

 

[hohosaregood]

Can we just hire Ted Lasso?

 

[tealzamboni]

Boughner really needs to go, I believe this team plays less than the sum of its parts and thats the coaches fault. I think this team could be a lot better simply by improving the coaching

That's a fair assessment of the season. My only reservation is that we let Bob pick his staff, and then put none of them in a position to succeed between starting on the road, the shortened season, and Madden's border issue (which I'm still suspicious of. Players got traded across the border and had none of the same problems). Granted, I don't see the point of firing a losing coach during a tank that I assume will last through next year's draft, but I still feel like this year wasn't quite a fair shake, for SJ slightly more than the rest of the league.

Boughner seemed to try different styles this season: PP-style 5v5 breakout and possession offense, active sticks and attack the seams, goon it up, and keep-it-simple-stupid (current). And these had varying levels of success. I can buy the argument that this was a training and experimental season. But from a big picture view, it seems like a strategic failure because I'm not sure they really built up their scheme/system nor cranked up individual player values.

If it's Boughner that's throwing darts on system ideas, then the blame should be more on him. But, if Wilson and front office is dictating what Boughner needs to try (so they can collect their data, build models, and project how to spend their assets), then I'd place more of the blame on them.

 

[Pavelski2112]

Boughner seemed to try different styles this season: PP-style 5v5 breakout and possession offense, active sticks and attack the seams, goon it up, and keep-it-simple-stupid (current). And these had varying levels of success. I can buy the argument that this was a training and experimental season. But from a big picture view, it seems like a strategic failure because I'm not sure they really built up their scheme/system nor cranked up individual player values.

If it's Boughner that's throwing darts on system ideas, then the blame should be more on him. But, if Wilson and front office is dictating what Boughner needs to try (so they can collect their data, build models, and project how to spend their assets), then I'd place more of the blame on them.

I know for teams with less talent this isn't usually a bad idea, but it's stifled so much creativity in the offense that none of the players can really show their skills and do what they're best at.

I remember being impressed with Boog after PDB left, but I'm thinking more and more that instead of him enforcing a new system, he just didn't have one yet, and the players were just working off chemistry.

 

[magic school bus]

If you think professional hockey players don't know what they're supposed to do and a coach is the only thing guiding them, I'm not sure what to tell you. Coaches are super overrated for the most part at the NHL level. Yes there are some great coaches but IMO they're like maybe 20% of the winning recipe. The biggest coaching impact at the NHL level is with their voice and respect from the players. Players will always be the biggest contributor to success and failure. Simply changing the coach (again) without overhauling the lineup drastically is a waste of time.

This. Especially when you consider we fired a coach who's led this team to the Final (and could possibly do the same in Vegas). Not saying Deboer is without fault, but you can win with him. This is all about the decline in talent on our roster.

 

[Sharksrule04]

I dont agree with a single thing you have said. If you dont notice a difference in how a team plays under different coaches, I'm not sure what to tell you

Never said there was no impact. To pretend that NHL players suddenly have no clue what to do after playing hockey their whole lives and as a profession is absurd. Teams play different because coaches draw different reactions from their players and enforce different systems and matchups with their players. Those do or don't work. It's not like a you fire Deboer though, bring in Boughner and suddenly Timo Meier is thinking "where do I go on the ice". The difference in Meier's game would be his usage and how the system the coach wants them to play meshes with his game. The voice/response aspect could have an impact as well, if the player doesn't like the coach or doesn't respect him maybe the player will not perform to his top abilities. Once again, none of which suddenly result in a player suddenly not knowing what to do when playing hockey.

 

[OrrNumber4]

They gave this group 2 different coaches. At some point the blame has to shift to the players (and the people responsible for choosing them).

The coach is always an easy one to blame (the GM too). I do think that new-coach/tired-coach-syndrome is a real thing, and that coaches can push a team up/down a level or two, but that's it. DeBoer or Boughner aren't playing goal. T-Mac can't make Thornton drive the net. Darryl Sutter can't help the fact that he doesn't have a single superstar on his team.

If you think professional hockey players don't know what they're supposed to do and a coach is the only thing guiding them, I'm not sure what to tell you. Coaches are super overrated for the most part at the NHL level. Yes there are some great coaches but IMO they're like maybe 20% of the winning recipe. The biggest coaching impact at the NHL level is with their voice and respect from the players. Players will always be the biggest contributor to success and failure. Simply changing the coach (again) without overhauling the lineup drastically is a waste of time.

Well said.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Never said there was no impact. To pretend that NHL players suddenly have no clue what to do after playing hockey their whole lives and as a profession is absurd. Teams play different because coaches draw different reactions from their players and enforce different systems and matchups with their players. Those do or don't work. It's not like a you fire Deboer though, bring in Boughner and suddenly Timo Meier is thinking "where do I go on the ice". The difference in Meier's game would be his usage and how the system the coach wants them to play meshes with his game. The voice/response aspect could have an impact as well, if the player doesn't like the coach or doesn't respect him maybe the player will not perform to his top abilities. Once again, none of which suddenly result in a player suddenly not knowing what to do when playing hockey.

Yes they would absolutely not know where to go. Players play under systems and structures which could mean they have different responsibilities or areas to cover. Why do you think defensive systems can work to improve defense? Cause the voice says "hey, play defense"? The game happens so fast you have to rely on structure to know where everyone else is and who gets who. This doesnt explain Timo on rushes and such, that is primarily reading the defense and creativity. Coverage, breakout, cycling are all parts of it and parts we suck at

 

[WSS11]

If you think professional hockey players don't know what they're supposed to do and a coach is the only thing guiding them, I'm not sure what to tell you. Coaches are super overrated for the most part at the NHL level. Yes there are some great coaches but IMO they're like maybe 20% of the winning recipe. The biggest coaching impact at the NHL level is with their voice and respect from the players. Players will always be the biggest contributor to success and failure. Simply changing the coach (again) without overhauling the lineup drastically is a waste of time.

2015-16 Penguins- underperformed under Johnston, hire Sullivan and win back to back cups.

2019- Blues last place in the west in Jan. Fire Yeo and hire Berube.. Win the cup.

20% my ass.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The coach is always an easy one to blame (the GM too). I do think that new-coach/tired-coach-syndrome is a real thing, and that coaches can push a team up/down a level or two, but that's it. DeBoer or Boughner aren't playing goal. T-Mac can't make Thornton drive the net. Darryl Sutter can't help the fact that he doesn't have a single superstar on his team.



Well said.

DeBoer and Boughner aren't playing goal but they don't seem to coach the position either. Don't you think that's kind of a problem? If a coach just throws his hand up about the position and his critiques come down to just whether or not a goalie makes a save or not, I think you're doomed to fail as a coach. I feel like head coaches, especially ones that were skaters during their playing days, do not put any emphasis on coaching the net. I don't think that's a recipe for success and is a justifiable reason to can a coach or a GM if the GM doesn't know or doesn't have people who know enough about it to figure it out for him. Seems that way for this team with the GM and coaches. To be fair, it seems that way for a lot of GM's and coaches. Goaltending is a volatile position but when you're working for a team, you better have a better answer than that.

 

[Sharksrule04]

2015-16 Penguins- underperformed under Johnston, hire Sullivan and win back to back cups.

2019- Blues last place in the west in Jan. Fire Yeo and hire Berube.. Win the cup.

20% my ass.

Blues were a flash in the pan. That was one season where an obviously talented roster was severely underperforming and needed a change in the locker room. As I've already said coaches obviously have an impact (20% seems quite fair when you factor in GM, Players, ownership), but it's the players who have to perform and execute. There are rare cases where coaches completely change a team but more often than not coaches have an impact for a period of time and then it diminishes because the players either get tired of the coach or stop responding to that voice in the room. In the end it is often the players that are still the issue. A coach like Trotz who instills an extremely structured system could probably get a fairly crappy team to be a good team, but simply changing coaches on a crappy team like the current version of the Sharks will do nothing long term.

 

[tealzamboni]

DeBoer and Boughner aren't playing goal but they don't seem to coach the position either. Don't you think that's kind of a problem? If a coach just throws his hand up about the position and his critiques come down to just whether or not a goalie makes a save or not, I think you're doomed to fail as a coach. I feel like head coaches, especially ones that were skaters during their playing days, do not put any emphasis on coaching the net. I don't think that's a recipe for success and is a justifiable reason to can a coach or a GM if the GM doesn't know or doesn't have people who know enough about it to figure it out for him. Seems that way for this team with the GM and coaches. To be fair, it seems that way for a lot of GM's and coaches. Goaltending is a volatile position but when you're working for a team, you better have a better answer than that.

Coaches don't play, but they are responsible for what the players do.
GM's don't coach, but they are responsible for what the coaches do.
Owner's don't GM, but they are responsible for what the GMs do. (Unless the bottom line is great and the league's not hassling them - then they don't care)

 

[Herschel]

Hard to accurately determine the impact a coach has

I would say an ineffective coach can really sink an average team, whereas an effective coach will cause a noticeable uptick. The difference between the two can be much bigger than one might think.

 

[Pavelski2112]

Beyond systems, it's about leadership and chemistry as well, just like any other group work. Everyone's gotta be on the same page. Even if a coach isn't necessarily that great relative to others, just having a new face or someone who clicks with the players can make a big difference. Even if most of the onus is on the players to execute, hockey isn't played by robots in a vacuum.

 

[magic school bus]

2015-16 Penguins- underperformed under Johnston, hire Sullivan and win back to back cups.

2019- Blues last place in the west in Jan. Fire Yeo and hire Berube.. Win the cup.

20% my ass.

Maybe they underperformed and just *gasp* regressed back to their talent level.

 

[WSS11]

Maybe they underperformed and just *gasp* regressed back to their talent level.

What a coincidence that would be

 

[OrrNumber4]

2015-16 Penguins- underperformed under Johnston, hire Sullivan and win back to back cups.

2019- Blues last place in the west in Jan. Fire Yeo and hire Berube.. Win the cup.

20% my ass.

Bad coaches can certainly hurt a team; I'd argue that even a good coach who has lost the locker room is doing more damage (perhaps greater than 20%). But I don't think the reverse is true as much. A great coach can squeeze some more juice out of his team, but the meat is the meat....look at the teams that win cups. What they have in common is a great roster; putatively horrible coaches have won numerous cups.

For example, look at SJ's goaltending. Is there anyone with two brain cells who thinks that Jones's bad play has much to do with the coaching? What are the odds that Nabokov/Schwab made it worse, and what are the odds that the "right coach" could make anything more than a marginal improvement? Maybe there is an argument to be made that a great goaltending coach can develop and mold the raw talent, but she can't create talent out of thin air.

 

[Kat Predator]

Berube changed systems and tweaked the lineup, very notably the goaltender. That's more than just a lightbulb going on over the heads of the players like in a cartoon.

 

[Karl Prime]

Boughner's biggest failure was not building the offense/tempo/style around Burns and Karlsson. 88 and 65 are still very good offensive players and the fact that their assist rates have plummeted this year tells you that something is wrong.

 

[sharks_dynasty]

Boughner's biggest failure was not building the offense/tempo/style around Burns and Karlsson. 88 and 65 are still very good offensive players and the fact that their assist rates have plummeted this year tells you that something is wrong.

Not sure I agree. Last year the D were taking shots from the blue line and not doing much else. This year they are jumping into the play and being more creative. I see that as progress.

 

[OffSydes]

Boughner might be a terrible hockey coach but there is not enough focus on his dumb mask and how he takes it off to talk. It looks like a yarmulke with strings.

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

Plenty of blame to go around but it starts with the guys out there on that ice..