The Future is Promising

SimonEdvinssonAtSix

It's possible to commit no mistakes and still lose
Nov 2, 2018
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Also, a decade would take us back to 2009, and many years we had multiple picks in either the 5th, 6th or 7th rounds. So, it's a lot of picks. -I'll give you the answer. It's zero. Now, how much further back it holds true before 2009, I'm not sure. But if you want, I'll look that up.

Its a loaded question and you know it. No point in continuing with someone when they try to stack up a question like that.

5, 6, 7th rounds, lmao. Again, get real.
 

SimonEdvinssonAtSix

It's possible to commit no mistakes and still lose
Nov 2, 2018
1,402
1,877
Your question wasn't? At least mine made a point... or should have.

Only if you think NHL regulars means a guy who has played single game.
But fair enough, I think a regular is a guy who has played, say, 300 games.

Mine made a point too but r/woooosh.
 

Athana see you later

Registered User
Feb 9, 2019
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The men in the video said we "live" in those later draft rounds. The video is what this thread is about. I'm saying we haven't done anywhere near that recently.

Also, a decade would take us back to 2009, not just 2015, and many years we had multiple picks in either the 5th, 6th or 7th rounds. So, it's a lot of picks. -I'll give you the answer. It's zero. Now, how much further back it holds true before 2009, I'm not sure. But if you want, I'll look that up. I only looked it up for ten years.

Your question is simply how many NHLers have we developed? We had no choice but to develop our picks into NHLers. That's basically just an argument for us being at the drafts. The argument should be whether or not we're actually good at drafting in comparison to other teams.
Compared to other teams the wings are real good at developing
 

Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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But it's not just a 30-goal scorer, I made that perfectly clear, and a 30-goal scorer is not necessarily even an all-star caliber player. It's not asking a lot of an organization that is supposedly good at drafting to find these types of players late in the first or in later rounds. That's something the guys in the video claim the Wings do, but which the Wings haven't done well for almost 20 years

We have been good at drafting absolutely nothing over this span: no goalies (who we don't even draft from the first round), let alone the 13 years between Zetterberg and Athansiou just to draft a 30-goal forward. Teams who are good at drafting find those players instead of making excuses. A 30-goal scorer or a reliable goalie should not be that big of a deal if you are a team that is good at drafting. How many years since Osgood? 1991? 28 years and counting to draft a reliable goalie? Think about that. That's a team that is good at drafting?

And it's not unfair at all. What is unfair is knowing they were intentionally scouting and drafting guys over others just because they were from Michigan, and then trying to bend that into a good decision somehow just because you happened to get lucky with Larkin.
What are you smoking? Jimmy Howard is a reliable goalie. Johan Franzen scored 30, as did Hudler (not for us though).

Accurately represent draft history if you want to discuss, otherwise don't bother.
 

The Zermanator

In Yzerman We Trust
Jan 21, 2013
3,382
1,184
What are you smoking? Jimmy Howard is a reliable goalie. Johan Franzen scored 30, as did Hudler (not for us though).

Accurately represent draft history if you want to discuss, otherwise don't bother.
Yeah you have to take into account all the 1sts that were traded when evaluating the quality of players we've drafted, and the ones that weren't traded were late 1sts anyway. So you kind of have to look from about 2010 to now when they actually started focusing more on drafting.

He does have a valid point though. Larkin is the only elite player Detroit has drafted in this millenium, and that is just simply unacceptable. They have found good complementary players in later rounds like Nyquist, AA, etc and some of their more recent 1sts have panned out well like Mantha but it's still a very mixed bag at best. If we ever want to get out of the basement, or avoid the dreaded 'bubble purgatory', drafting needs to improve drastically. It seems to have already started with some exciting talent coming up but those are still largely unknown quantities, and elite talent has not emerged yet outside of Larkin (Zadina remains to be seen).
 
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DetroitRed

Crashes the Crease
Apr 7, 2013
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Detroit
What are you smoking? Jimmy Howard is a reliable goalie. Johan Franzen scored 30, as did Hudler (not for us though).

Accurately represent draft history if you want to discuss, otherwise don't bother.
Jimmy Howard is reliable should not be a sentence. That's ridiculous and you know it.

I did miss on Hudler, but, there's still a decade between him and Athanasiou. That doesn't help the argument that the Wings are good at drafting. Franzen did have a single season above 30 goals, but again that was 11 years ago. I mean you might as well use the decade we went without a 30-goal scorer as your best evidence that we can draft, even though it's much better evidence that we can't. Moreover, neither Hudler or Franzen support the argument that Detroit lives in the later rounds. Pulling the occasional 30-goal scorer out of the 2nd and 3rd rounds is something any team should be able to accomplish more often than we have recently. We haven't been good at drafting since 20 years ago, when the rest of the league caught onto how to scout globally. Holland deserves credit for pioneering that, but now that everyone else is doing it, he doesn't measure up all that well.
 
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Pavels Dog

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Feb 18, 2013
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Yeah you have to take into account all the 1sts that were traded when evaluating the quality of players we've drafted, and the ones that weren't traded were late 1sts anyway. So you kind of have to look from about 2010 to now when they actually started focusing more on drafting.

He does have a valid point though. Larkin is the only elite player Detroit has drafted in this millenium, and that is just simply unacceptable. They have found good complementary players in later rounds like Nyquist, AA, etc and some of their more recent 1sts have panned out well like Mantha but it's still a very mixed bag at best. If we ever want to get out of the basement, or avoid the dreaded 'bubble purgatory', drafting needs to improve drastically. It seems to have already started with some exciting talent coming up but those are still largely unknown quantities, and elite talent has not emerged yet outside of Larkin (Zadina remains to be seen).
Larkin was also our highest pick since 1991 at the time. And now he's had some time to develop. Mantha who also looks good was our 2nd top 20 pick since 91. Maybe, just maybe, there are reasons that we didn't find a ton of high-end talent that go beyond "our scouts suck".

Bring me a list of elite talent drafted by teams while they were contenders. I bet it's a really long list...
Would love to be the scout that gets tasked with selecting in the 6th round, knowing his boss finds it's "unacceptable" if you dont' find elite talent. I'd rather try to take pictures of black holes, at least that's a realistic and achievable goal.

Jimmy Howard is reliable should not be a sentence. That's ridiculous and you know it.

I did miss on Hudler, but, there's still a decade between him and Athanasiou. That doesn't help the argument that the Wings are good at drafting. Franzen did have a single season above 30 goals, but again that was 11 years ago. I mean you might as well use the decade we went without a 30-goal scorer as your best evidence that we can draft, even though it's much better evidence that we can't. Moreover, neither Hudler or Franzen support the argument that Detroit lives in the later rounds. Pulling the occasional 30-goal scorer out of the 2nd and 3rd round is something any team should be able to accomplish. We haven't been good at drafting since 20 years ago, when the rest of the league caught onto how to scout globally. Holland deserves credit for pioneering that, but now that everyone else is doing it, he doesn't measure up all that well.
Don't use a word like "reliable" if what you mean is "top 10 in the world at his position". Because since entering the league Howard is a top ~20 goalie and has been pretty darn consistent, having like one real off year. What's needed to be reliable?

And you're still fighting against facts and moving goalposts when it comes to your 30 goal scorers. 7 years between Mule and AA. And sure, Nyquist didn't f*cking score 30 but he had 28 in less than 60 games.. oh, but now you change your argument to "30 goal scorers don't matter". Good one. Real honest discussion.
 

ShanahanMan

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Jan 31, 2009
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If we had landed Hughes or Kakko, I would have been in "All-in" mode and hoped Holland would go out and sign some big name players and try to make a run..

But that didn't happen so there's no point now. Might as well continue the rebuild, stay pat during FA (unless a one year tradeable guy WITHOUT a NTC), and just hope for more development and better draft luck next year.
 

DetroitRed

Crashes the Crease
Apr 7, 2013
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Larkin was also our highest pick since 1991 at the time. And now he's had some time to develop. Mantha who also looks good was our 2nd top 20 pick since 91. Maybe, just maybe, there are reasons that we didn't find a ton of high-end talent that go beyond "our scouts suck".

Bring me a list of elite talent drafted by teams while they were contenders. I bet it's a really long list...
Would love to be the scout that gets tasked with selecting in the 6th round, knowing his boss finds it's "unacceptable" if you dont' find elite talent. I'd rather try to take pictures of black holes, at least that's a realistic and achievable goal.


Don't use a word like "reliable" if what you mean is "top 10 in the world at his position". Because since entering the league Howard is a top ~20 goalie and has been pretty darn consistent, having like one real off year. What's needed to be reliable?

And you're still fighting against facts and moving goalposts when it comes to your 30 goal scorers. 7 years between Mule and AA. And sure, Nyquist didn't f*cking score 30 but he had 28 in less than 60 games.. oh, but now you change your argument to "30 goal scorers don't matter". Good one. Real honest discussion.
No, the 5th through the 7th rounds, we could almost give those picks away nowadays and not miss them, because we haven't found good talent there in like forever. That doesn't fit the idea that we're draft geniuses that do a lot with those late rounds. There's a myth that persists that we're good at drafting because of what we did 20 years ago in those rounds.

Drafting elite talent while a contender is exactly what the slappy myth alleges Ken Holland does. He doesn't do that. He did that 20 years ago in a whole different era when he could scout the globe unchallenged. Boston is a team which has done that recently, not Detroit. You need to find evidence that Ken Holland still does that. We're not arguing that Detroit is average. We're arguing against Detroit being good at drafting.

Again, if the best he could draft since Osgood is about a top 20, then he's pretty bad at drafting goalies. Osgood was drafted in like 1991. That's 30 years ago. So, you're misrepresenting reality.

Moving goal posts is exactly what you just attempted when you tried to find a way to shift the argument away from 30-goal scorers. It was 11 years between when Mule had 30 and Athanasiou had 30. Ten years is less, ten years is better for your argument, but that's a piss poor argument.
 
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The Zermanator

In Yzerman We Trust
Jan 21, 2013
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Larkin was also our highest pick since 1991 at the time. And now he's had some time to develop. Mantha who also looks good was our 2nd top 20 pick since 91. Maybe, just maybe, there are reasons that we didn't find a ton of high-end talent that go beyond "our scouts suck".

Bring me a list of elite talent drafted by teams while they were contenders. I bet it's a really long list...
Would love to be the scout that gets tasked with selecting in the 6th round, knowing his boss finds it's "unacceptable" if you dont' find elite talent. I'd rather try to take pictures of black holes, at least that's a realistic and achievable goal.

You're moving the goalposts. Where did I say you had to find them in the 6th? Also it doesn't matter whether a team is a contender or not when talking about later draft picks, since every team has a crack at those players...

So really makes more sense to look at the 2nd round and later.

2015 draft:
- CAR Aho 35th OA

2014 draft:
- BOS Pastrnak 25th OA
- TB Point 79th OA

2011 draft:
- ANA Gibson 39th OA
- TB Kucherov 58th OA
- CGY Gaudreau 104th OA

2010 draft:
- CAR Faulk 37th OA
- DAL Klingberg 131st OA

2009 draft:
- COL O'Reilly 33rd OA

2008 draft:
- WSH Carlson 27th OA
- NAS Josi 38th OA
- WSH Holtby 93rd OA

2007 draft:
- MTL Subban 43rd OA
- DAL Benn 129th OA

2006 draft:
- BOS Marchand 71st OA

2005 draft:
- SJ Vlasic 35th OA
- PIT Letang 62nd OA
- LA Quick 72nd OA
- PHX Yandle 105th OA

2004 draft:
- WSH Green 29th OA
- NSH Rinne 258th OA

2003 draft:
- BOS Bergeron 45th OA
- NSH Weber 49th OA
- SJ Pavelski 205th OA
- CHI Byfuglien 245th OA

2002 draft:
- CHI Keith 54th OA

2000 draft:
- NYR Lundqvist 205th OA

There's your list (it is pretty long :thumbu:) going back to 2000. I included players in the #25-30 range since they would have been available to Detroit at the time. Otherwise they are all 2nd round or later.

CAR x2
BOS x3
TB x2
ANA x1
CHI x2
CGY x1
DAL x2
COL x1
WSH x3
NSH x3
MTL x1
SJ x2
PIT x1
LA x1
PHX x1

Since Detroit drafted their last elite player after ~25th OA (D and Z in 98/99), fully half of the entire league have done it (15 teams). 8 of them have done it 2 or 3 times. The only elite player Detroit has to show in the 21st century is Dylan Larkin picked at #15.

Is it really so controversial to say Detroit's drafting could stand to improve significantly?

EDIT: Another depressing way to put it in perspective, is that Detroit has drafted 1 more elite player in the 2000s than Las Vegas has... and with the way Brannstrom's looking, even that might not be true.
 
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Gniwder

Registered User
Oct 12, 2009
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Bellingham, WA
Mantha was drafted in 2013 and it's still a hot topic.
Not really, take a look at the draft and tell me who else you would have picked that would have been on the radar as a 1st rounder? The only player I see is Shea Theodore who was the next defenseman picked.

Mantha gets a lotta flak for his effort level, but it was still a good pick because there wasn't much else available at #20.
 

Hockeyfannnn91

Registered User
Jan 26, 2019
1,268
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You're moving the goalposts. Where did I say you had to find them in the 6th? Also it doesn't matter whether a team is a contender or not when talking about later draft picks, since every team has a crack at those players...

So really makes more sense to look at the 2nd round and later.

2015 draft:
- CAR Aho 35th OA

2014 draft:
- BOS Pastrnak 25th OA
- TB Point 79th OA

2011 draft:
- ANA Gibson 39th OA
- TB Kucherov 58th OA
- CGY Gaudreau 104th OA

2010 draft:
- CAR Faulk 37th OA
- DAL Klingberg 131st OA

2009 draft:
- COL O'Reilly 33rd OA

2008 draft:
- WSH Carlson 27th OA
- NAS Josi 38th OA
- WSH Holtby 93rd OA

2007 draft:
- MTL Subban 43rd OA
- DAL Benn 129th OA

2006 draft:
- BOS Marchand 71st OA

2005 draft:
- SJ Vlasic 35th OA
- PIT Letang 62nd OA
- LA Quick 72nd OA
- PHX Yandle 105th OA

2004 draft:
- WSH Green 29th OA
- NSH Rinne 258th OA

2003 draft:
- BOS Bergeron 45th OA
- NSH Weber 49th OA
- SJ Pavelski 205th OA
- CHI Byfuglien 245th OA

2002 draft:
- CHI Keith 54th OA

2000 draft:
- NYR Lundqvist 205th OA

There's your list (it is pretty long :thumbu:) going back to 2000. I included players in the #25-30 range since they would have been available to Detroit at the time. Otherwise they are all 2nd round or later.

CAR x2
BOS x3
TB x2
ANA x1
CHI x2
CGY x1
DAL x2
COL x1
WSH x3
NSH x3
MTL x1
SJ x2
PIT x1
LA x1
PHX x1

Since Detroit drafted their last elite player after ~25th OA (D and Z in 98/99), fully half of the entire league have done it (15 teams). 8 of them have done it 2 or 3 times. The only elite player Detroit has to show in the 21st century is Dylan Larkin picked at #15.

Is it really so controversial to say Detroit's drafting could stand to improve significantly?

EDIT: Another depressing way to put it in perspective, is that Detroit has drafted 1 more elite player in the 2000s than Las Vegas has... and with the way Brannstrom's looking, even that might not be true.
That’s a long list ?what about the hundreds and hundreds of players around those guys picked later that turned out great?its not easy for us to be the one getting that guy who’s gonna be great in the 2-6th rounds or we’d have then on our lineup/pool prospects

Hopefully this year we decide to swing for it with the picks instead of trying to grab someone cause he’ll play in the nhl , rather swing and miss than grab a 4th liner
 
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The Zermanator

In Yzerman We Trust
Jan 21, 2013
3,382
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That’s a long list ?what about the hundreds and hundreds of players around those guys picked later that turned out great?its not easy for us to be the one getting that guy who’s gonna be great in the 2-6th rounds or we’d have then on our lineup/pool prospects

Hopefully this year we decide to swing for it with the picks instead of trying to grab someone cause he’ll play in the nhl , rather swing and miss than grab a 4th liner
That's not the point. The point is that half of the league has done it and nearly 1/3 have done it multiple times.

Thus Detroit is not in the upper echelon of drafting teams. It's generous to call them mediocre at this point. They're good at finding middle 6 forwards and bottom 4 dmen and that's it.
 
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Hockeyfannnn91

Registered User
Jan 26, 2019
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328
Yes I agree we been shit at drafting and we’ve seem to be stuck in this rut of drafting the sure nhl guy who won’t be a star rather than take chances

That being said looking at your list I don’t see a ton of teams drafting gems outside 30+ several times , it’s simply not that easy although I’m really high on the wings 2nd and 3rd picks last season

2017 for example just seems like we targeted size and grit over skill and passing over our need for d since lidstrom that year cost us dearly as we passed over brannstrom,Foote and valimaki over 6’6 bottom line scrub Rasmussen

We did draft athanasiou at least in the 4th I believe that’s turning out to be good , and we have mrazek who’s 8 yrs younger than Howard but decided to keep the senior and mrazeks playing outstanding like a lot of fans knew he could
 

The Zermanator

In Yzerman We Trust
Jan 21, 2013
3,382
1,184
Yes I agree we been **** at drafting and we’ve seem to be stuck in this rut of drafting the sure nhl guy who won’t be a star rather than take chances

That being said looking at your list I don’t see a ton of teams drafting gems outside 30+ several times , it’s simply not that easy although I’m really high on the wings 2nd and 3rd picks last season

2017 for example just seems like we targeted size and grit over skill and passing over our need for d since lidstrom that year cost us dearly as we passed over brannstrom,Foote and valimaki over 6’6 bottom line scrub Rasmussen

We did draft athanasiou at least in the 4th I believe that’s turning out to be good , and we have mrazek who’s 8 yrs younger than Howard but decided to keep the senior and mrazeks playing outstanding like a lot of fans knew he could
I don't understand what part you're disagreeing with? It may not be easy (never said it was) but half of the league has managed to meet that challenge and the Wings are not in that half. It's not a small sample size of a few years either, that's almost 2 decades of drafts and the Wings are on the outside looking in. And if only 1 team had managed to draft multiple elite players due to dumb luck that would be one thing, but 8 teams have done it so safe to say it's not just a fluke.

Hey I love AA and good for Mrazek but those two in no way compare to anyone in that list so it's not really an apt comparison. If we loosen the criteria to include players of that calibre, well then every team in the league has managed it several times over. Think of how many 50-60pt players there are compared to PPG+ players in the league, now that's a long list. The Wings are not particularly special in that regard.
 

Hockeyfannnn91

Registered User
Jan 26, 2019
1,268
328
I don't understand what part you're disagreeing with? It may not be easy (never said it was) but half of the league has managed to meet that challenge and the Wings are not in that half. It's not a small sample size of a few years either, that's almost 2 decades of drafts and the Wings are on the outside looking in. And if only 1 team had managed to draft multiple elite players due to dumb luck that would be one thing, but 8 teams have done it so safe to say it's not just a fluke.

Hey I love AA and good for Mrazek but those two in no way compare to anyone in that list so it's not really an apt comparison. If we loosen the criteria to include players of that calibre, well then every team in the league has managed it several times over. Think of how many 50-60pt players there are compared to PPG+ players in the league, now that's a long list. The Wings are not particularly special in that regard.
8 teams you said have done but bruins went like 12 yrs before they struck again with pastranak so I don’t know if it’s all great scouting as it also includes luck

Trust me I’m pissed off the wings are shit , I just want to see them be More bold and go for the homerun picks rather than being safe and I’ll be glad

Like rather see us taking a chance on a puistola in the second round than a sure thing nhler who will be a good two way bottom line guy

Anyways I get what your saying and I’d like to see our drafting luck change , it’s about time
 

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