The Flyers Should Trade Wayne Simmonds

Adtar02

@NateThompson44 is a bum
Apr 8, 2012
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2nd star 2 the right
There's nothing "rabid" about being skeptical of exaggerated "homer" claims.

As I've shown, Giroux has been a good, but not great playoff performer.
He's a very good but not great even strength regular season scorer.
His best attribute is as a power play QB, but he's not that far above his peers.
Last five years, he's 3rd in pp/60 on the power play, behind Backstrom and Malkin, and ahead of Kucherov, Shattenkirk, Datsyuk and Crosby.
5x5 he isn't even among the top 50 scorers.

It's not "slamming" Giroux to call him a very good but less than elite player.
He's not the best offensive player in the league and he's pretty middle of the road defensively.
His peak was from 22-26 years old, a nice bounce back season last year at LW, but it's doubtful he'll stay at that level going forward.

The problem is “he is and elite player.” And you trash him for no reason.

It’s funny cause when the team was good he was a beast in the playoffs. Once the team became a one line team. Pre Hak till hopefully this year they were easy to beat. Especially in the playoffs.

It also should not be a shock that the team’s, that is a bubble team, has bad goaltending, and gets dominated, players don’t have high point totals
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Really? Tell that to Smith and Marchessault. Vegas was a one line team.
Perron - Haula - Neal wasn't scaring anyone (Neal had a good PO, but Haula and Perron were MIA).

Top players play big in big games, by definition.
Giroux had 1 ES point in 6 games, however you want to excuse it, it's a "fail." Elite players don't disappear like that in the playoffs.
Hall had 2-1 3 in 5 games, despite Nico going as MIA as Patrick - he was the entire NJ offense that series.

"Homer" - fan who exaggerates the talents of his hometown heroes and denigrates good players on other teams.

Yes, it will help Giroux when the second line can step up (Patrick and Lindblom weren't ready for playoff intensity), but that also suggests that Giroux can't win one on one matchups against top defenders if he needs another line to draw the pressure off him.

This team will go deep into the playoffs when the young studs are ready to step up and take the lead, Couts, Patrick, TK, Provorov.
Then the aging veterans like Giroux, Voracek and JVR won't have to carry the load.
To win the Cup, they'll also need the next wave to provide the kind of forward depth the top teams have, a 2nd pair on defense and Hart to be a top ten goalie.
 

Harhis

Registered User
Oct 30, 2017
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Really? Tell that to Smith and Marchessault. Vegas was a one line team.
Perron - Haula - Neal wasn't scaring anyone (Neal had a good PO, but Haula and Perron were MIA).

Top players play big in big games, by definition.
Giroux had 1 ES point in 6 games, however you want to excuse it, it's a "fail." Elite players don't disappear like that in the playoffs.
Hall had 2-1 3 in 5 games, despite Nico going as MIA as Patrick - he was the entire NJ offense that series.

"Homer" - fan who exaggerates the talents of his hometown heroes and denigrates good players on other teams.

Yes, it will help Giroux when the second line can step up (Patrick and Lindblom weren't ready for playoff intensity), but that also suggests that Giroux can't win one on one matchups against top defenders if he needs another line to draw the pressure off him.

This team will go deep into the playoffs when the young studs are ready to step up and take the lead, Couts, Patrick, TK, Provorov.
Then the aging veterans like Giroux, Voracek and JVR won't have to carry the load.
To win the Cup, they'll also need the next wave to provide the kind of forward depth the top teams have, a 2nd pair on defense and Hart to be a top ten goalie.
Sample size? 6 games? Really?

He was not good enough in POs but using those 6 games to define him as a player is just stupid as f***.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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You can just review the games and watch Giroux get pressured, he's not as quick as he was in his prime, he always lacked straight line speed, and he doesn't have the big body to shield the puck.

Make all the excuses you want, Giroux, Voracek and Ghost did not play like top players against the Penguins.
That's a fact.
Couts and Provorov had an excellent series against the same team.
Laughton showed promise as a LW.
The rest of the team, meh.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,438
155,155
Pennsylvania
Sample size? 6 games? Really?

He was not good enough in POs but using those 6 games to define him as a player is just stupid as ****.
What’s funny is people act like Couturier was great and Giroux was bad, but that’s literally based off of one single game and ignoring the context of the situation.

But it’s intentional dishonesty.
 
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deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Couts had 2 goals and 2 assists and was +3 in the other 3 games he played.

But when a liar calls you a liar (gee, when have we seen this before?) . . .
 

VladDrag

Registered User
Feb 6, 2018
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What’s funny is people act like Couturier was great and Giroux was bad, but that’s literally based off of one single game and ignoring the context of the situation.

But it’s intentional dishonesty.

Giroux could have had 2 or 3 more assists that series. It's funny, if his linemates finish those chances, his outlook is much different.
 
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Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,438
155,155
Pennsylvania
Giroux could have had 2 or 3 more assists that series. It's funny, if his linemates finish those chances, his outlook is much different.
Yeah, in the two wins they both played really well, even if that isn’t reflected in points.

Notice how people who always downplay scoring are suddenly using that as their sole argument in this case? What a coincidence. :laugh:

Fact is, the results (which is what matters) in that series weren’t good, but the actual quality of play wasn’t as bad as the dishonest people are exaggerating. And that’s important too because it lets you make an educated guess on what will happen in the future. There’s no reason for the dramatics and exaggerations.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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The only one exaggerating is Striiker.
I've never said Giroux isn't a good player, my point is he isn't an elite player who can carry a team through the playoffs.
At this stage in his career, along with Voracek and JVR, he's a complementary player, but not the "Moses" who's gonna take you to the promised land.
That falls on Couts, Patrick, TK and Provorov, and in 2-3 years, Frost, Farabee, Myers and O'Brien. And of course, Hart.
I don't see players like Lindblom, Ghost, Sanheim, Allison, Ratcliffe, et al having the same upside.

There are plenty of veterans who had good playoffs without being the key player on their team:
2018: Wash: Backstrom (30) 20g 5-18 23, Oshie (31) 24g 8-13 21; Winnipeg: Stastny (32) 17g 9-6 15
2016: San Jose: Pavelski (31) 24g 14-9 23, Thornton (36) 24g 3-18 21; St Louis: Backes (31) 20g 7-7 14
2015: Chi: Hossa (36) 24g 4-13 17, Sharp (33) 24g 5-10 15, Richards (34) 24g 3-11 14; NYR: Nash (30) 19g 5-9 14, Boyle (38) 19g 3-7 10; Anaheim: Kesler (30) 16g 7-6 13
2014: LA: J Williams (32) 26g 9-16 25, Gaborik (31) 26g 14-8 22; Montreal: Bourqe (32) 17g 8-3 11; Chi: Hossa (35) 19g 2-12 14
2013: Chi: Sharp (32) 23g 10-6 16, Hossa (34) 22g 7-9 16; Boston: Chara (35) 22g 3-12 15
2012: LA: J Williams (30) 20g 4-11 15; NJ: Salvador (35) 24g 4-10 14
2011: Boston: Ryder (30) 25g 8-9 17, Recchi (42) 25g 5-19 14; Flyers: Briere (32) 23g 12-18 30
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,438
155,155
Pennsylvania
Only if they were primary assists. They're the only ones that count.

No no no no no no absolutely not. That's just inflated, misleading garbage.

In intelligent hockey circles, only 5v5 primary assists count.

Secondary assists don't count and all PP scoring is irrelevant too. After all, a PP goal is only worth 25% of a 5v5 goal.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Ovi is a physical speciman, 6'3 235, when he decided he wanted to actually use his body, he was a dominating force.
And he's a surefire HOF candidate, 607 goals and counting (#19 with an arrow), though he's not the same player he was at 20-25 either.
He's just more talented than Giroux, hands down.
20-25: averaged 35-29 64 at ES, 18-24 42 on the PP
28-32: averaged 27-19 46 at ES, 20-10 30 on the PP

Yzerman was #9 all time in goals, #7 all time in points, don't think Giroux is gonna catch him.
Yzerman 22-27: averaged 35-41 at ES, 12-23 on the PP
Yzerman 30-34: averaged 16-31 at ES, 12-17 on the PP

Giroux 23-26: averaged 17-32 at ES, 8-27 on the PP (prorating 2012-13)
Giroux 27-30: averaged 12-21 at ES, 7-21 on the PP

He's not going to age like those two, his peak wasn't as good as their later seasons.
Mentioning Giroux in the same breath with Ovi and Yzerman is ignorant.

Right now Giroux is chasing guys like Propp and Vinnie (i.e. needs 1,004 to catch Propp at #89, only has 677).
He's a long way from posting HOF numbers. needs at least 1,000 and probably 1,100 to get in (Fleury still out with 1,088, Propp with 1,004).
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,743
86,024
Nova Scotia
Lol...so for a decade, Ovi just decided not to try and use his body and just accepted losing.

Are you using raw points from the 80's/90's and comparing it today's NHL???

Giroux won't age like those 2, just like you said he was done last summer??

Who is the ignorant one??

You are older than most here....and I was born in 72. I remember all the "Yzerman is not a good leader" talk...as you do too. Shockingly, it wasn't until he won that it changed. Ovi is no different. No one was talking about him being a good leader....oh...until age 32 when the TEAM finally won.

Will G get that same chance?
 
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deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Giroux bounced back after he moved to LW, a less demanding position, with Couts as his center.
Who hasn't had a "Couts bounce" the last few years?
And it's not uncommon for players to have one or two bounce back years as they age, the problem is they still fall off substantially in their 30s.

I didn't say he was finished last summer, I just said at center he'd at best play like he did 2-3 years ago before he was injured (i.e. 60-65 points), at worse he'd slowly decline from that level. And I think if he stayed at center he would have been a marginal 2C, he's not the player he was 5 years ago.

Like I said, Giroux is a very good player, but no one has shown he's elite.

He's five years from even being in a HOF conversation, and he'll have to significantly outscore players like Kopitar and Toews who were better defensively.
If he averages 60 points from 31-35, he'll still be short of a 1,000, and that's a tough pace to keep up as he ages.
He's not close to being the dominant player of his generation.

I don't know why people have to go "homer" on him, he's not as good as healthy Lindros, shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Clarke, and may never catch Propp. He's "one of" the best players in franchise history, but not nearly the best.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,743
86,024
Nova Scotia
2nd in point last year
2nd in points this decade
2nd most top 3 finishes in scoring this decade
2nd most top 4 in Hart voting this decade

But because he is not Crosby, it's not enough.

Anyway, this will be the last response. This is the Simmonds thread after all.
 
Last edited:

Norze

Registered User
Jun 28, 2018
22
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Norway

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