THE Fire Torts Thread

[NotWendell]

Coaches are hired to be fired. This week is not the week.

 

[major major]

Coaches are hired to be fired. This week is not the week.

Is he week to week at this point? Month to month? Year to year?

 

[Doggy]

Is he week to week at this point? Month to month? Year to year?

With the fan base its game to game, with the Owner/POHOP/GM I suspect he's pretty safe for the entire season unless the wheels completely fall off. And 8-6-1 is not even remotely "wheels falling off".

Actually, with how crappy our STs are I suspect Torts has even more job security because promoting either of those guys to interim would be laughable.

 

[MoeBartoli]

Torts is safe for now - likely the season. Though not a fast start, the team is still above .500, a far cry from a Todd Richards start. That doesn't nor shouldn't getnyou fired. Ironically that may be unfortunate for the Blue Jackets longer term.

We are often said to be one of the three youngest teams in the NHL. Yet despite his reputation for teaching fundamentals, a huge question exists about his abiitily to effectively work with younger players. That's a problem and one that puts the franchise in a deeper hole each season when the same old guard maintains their more prominent roles while we "dry out" our own pipeline.

Opinions vary widely on Sonny. I'd say most question whether he can be an NHL player. Well, your beliefs have come true. Despite scoring 14 goes in limited time he was able to earn even more limited TOI and ultimately find his way to the AHL.

At the beginning of the season opinions varied far less on Bjorkstrand. Most on this board (and writers in the NHL) had impact on the second line, third line worst. One of our leading scoresr in the first half of last year despite limited nice time here and even more limited ice time as the season progressed. This year under Torts, he has earned his way to the press box.

Duclair has been one of the top scorers for the team - a smart free agent signing. What's been Torts role in this whole thing? It's to publicly talk about his warts rather than accomplishments. And reduce his ice time while declaring him as one of the players on a "short leash".

"Unfair Moe!", you say! "Look at Werenski!" Oh, you mean the player on who's behalf Jones intervened and said let me handle it Torts (unspoken was "you're beating him down).

Oh yes, we do have PLD, the one young guy who hasn't regressed. Looking back to last year I see one reason why. He was slotted for 4th/3rd line wing until Torts found out Wennberg nor Dubi (nor Foligno) was the solution at center and PLD was moved to the top center role out of desperation. (Now there's a true measure of coaching). One benefit PLD does have is his game has the grit that Torts covets and his overall skill over others kept him there.

Speaking of Wennberg, the man who so many proclaimed as our 1C answer - at worst our top 6 center solution....oh Alex where have you gone?.....I've never believed him to be a true 1C, but his skill greatly exceeds his current play. To me he is the prime example of a young player Torts has failed to reach. (I would say closer to alienated).

I'll forego mention of the young DMen who need development. I'm sure they'll get there while Torts fixates on going to a five man D rotation for long stretches.

You can say all of these players are their own enemy. I say a coach more effective at reaching and growing younger players would eliminate one of their developmental enemies.

The NHL is becoming a young man's game. And the communicator to our young guys are being coached an old school voice. It's a poor long term mix and it's playing out right now. Look, Torts understandably isn't going to change his communication style to a way that reaches millennial aged players. While he gets his shots at teaching young pups new tricks, you can teach the old dog a new trick.

 

[major major]

I think we should consider letting Torts go because his voice no longer carries much weight in the room. The overall discipline and commitment from the team is well below where it needs to be.

I don't think he's mishandled Sonny, and probably not Bjorkstrand (yet). The general narrative that he's bad for young players started as a stereotype about hard-ass coaches, and now feeds off of situations like Milano, where to my mind the player is clearly not deserving to play over guys like Foligno, Jenner, etc...

 

[thebus88]

Torts is safe for now - likely the season. Though not a fast start, the team is still above .500, a far cry from a Todd Richards start. That doesn't nor shouldn't getnyou fired.

This is the bottom line. Gonna be 3 years in a row in the playoffs.

Expectations that have been raised to unrealistic levels because of our current coaches and front office are now being used as reasons why these guys should be fired. All that "glass half empty" BS in your post is simply nothing but that.

I think we should consider letting Torts go because his voice no longer carries much weight in the room. The overall discipline and commitment from the team is well below where it needs to be.

I don't think he's mishandled Sonny, and probably not Bjorkstrand (yet). The general narrative that he's bad for young players started as a stereotype about hard-ass coaches, and now feeds off of situations like Milano, where to my mind the player is clearly not deserving to play over guys like Foligno, Jenner, etc...

I agree with the last part. Although I am mixed on Bjork. I think both him and Torts are at fault with why he's not "blossoming".

BUT WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS STUFF about him "losing the room"? This is a couple/few posts now, and I don't want the parroting to turn some more fiction, into fact.

Please explain this "discipline" and "commitment" that the team lacks.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

First place team. Youngest team in the league. Best player wants to leave. Goalie probably wants to leave.

...and fire the coach?

 

[major major]

First place team. Youngest team in the league. Best player wants to leave. Goalie probably wants to leave.

...and fire the coach?

First place in a division that is starting very slowly. Not that young anymore. Best player wants to leave. Goalie wants respect.

...and they've been playing better since they told Torts to back off, that they'd handle things themselves (I believe this was brought up by some reporter in the locker room after the Dallas game).

 

[Crede777]

Not that young anymore.

I agree with everything you said but this part (and it's really just nitpicking). They're still the 3rd youngest team in the league...

 

[SuperGenius]

First place in a division that is starting very slowly. Not that young anymore. Best player wants to leave. Goalie wants respect.

...and they've been playing better since they told Torts to back off, that they'd handle things themselves (I believe this was brought up by some reporter in the locker room after the Dallas game).

I don’t know where you’re getting this stuff. Source?

 

[major major]

I don’t know where you’re getting this stuff. Source?

For the bit about players wanting to handle things themselves? I put my recollection of the source in the parenthetical. I think it was Foligno speaking to reporters postgame - maybe it was to Metz or McElligott.

 

[Crede777]

For the bit about players wanting to handle things themselves? I put my recollection of the source in the parenthetical. I think it was Foligno speaking to reporters postgame - maybe it was to Metz or McElligott.

Did they tell Torts to back off or did Foligno simply place blame on the players failing to execute? I know it was in the Kings postgame interview.

From what I remember, he said that the coaches were telling them to do the right thing but the inability to score on the power play was "on us (the players)."

 

[major major]

Did they tell Torts to back off or did Foligno simply place blame on the players failing to execute? I know it was in the Kings postgame interview.

From what I remember, he said that the coaches were telling them to do the right thing but the inability to score on the power play was "on us (the players)."

I'm referring to Nick's comments to McElligott, after the Stars game: "we asked that we let ourselves figure it out", etc... It's on the Jackets youtube page. His full comment makes it seem like they asked Torts to respectfully butt out.

 

[thebus88]

I'm referring to Nick's comments to McElligott, after the Stars game: "we asked that we let ourselves figure it out", etc... It's on the Jackets youtube page. His full comment makes it seem like they asked Torts to respectfully butt out.

See, this is just you getting "corrected" on what was said, get called out on it, not be able to admit you are wrong, then twist multiple peoples words into you being right.

Crede says, Foligno says that its the players fault NOT the coaches, then you choose "different" comments after a different game that essentially say the same thing. However, it doesn't "add up" or go along with YOUR theory. So you take the words "we need to figure it out ourselves" and interpret it as, "You cant help us Torts, so we'll figure it out"...and that his voice doesn't carry any weight to the team and that's he's lost the room.

 

[EspenK]

So now Duclair is in the shit house. Perhaps one of the esteemed vets, Dubi or Foligno, could take him under their wing and get him to understand what is expected of him as far as defense goes? A guy on pace for 30+ goals should not be benched. Torts has to figure out how to get him to be at least adequate on D. I'm going to assume yelling and screaming at him isn't going to work. Someone needs to get into Duclair's head.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

Joel Quenneville's nephews played on my hockey team, AMA.

With that said I understand he has a long history in the game and is probably very good and knowledgeable coaches. I'll also add, seems to be very similar TO TORTS, In regards to both their "pedigree" and past, but also how they "treat" their team/players. What I'm trying to say is that hiring Joel isn't gonna get Milano on the ice any more than he is now.

And really, I mean you people realize you are claiming that the very 1st coach fired in the league this year is a better option than the guy who JUST coached us to back to back playoff berths (and IN POSITION NOW) and a league wide all times wins in a row record in the past 2 years.

I'll ask you people this, in the "Fire Torts" thread, who and what caused, and when did your expectations become so high for the CBJ? Serious question. "I'm fed up after 15 years and 10 thousand dollars!!" is not an acceptable answer.

Yes because that coach has proven he can win meaningfully in the cap era, while Torts has not.

That wasnt an all time record, it was 1 short. With a couple shootout wins in there too.

And Q is nowhere near Torts level in terms of being hard on his players. Torts is an all timer in that regard. Keenan with better results

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Before we go all hardcore into Torts being an issue with Duclair, let us all be reminded he came here for Torts to get his game straight. Young players with egos don't like to hear that they aren't good enough at one skill or another. He clearly has weakness in his game and that why he came here so easily.

If a player is defensively irresponsible and choose not to listen to the message, I can't imagine that they'll listen to a different coach as well either. Duclair has a full opportunity to learn from this because it is the reason he is here. Some other players who've been here longer who don't like to play defense need to get their heads out of their rear ends if they want to be a pro.

I seem to remember a few years ago the team sat down with David Savard and told him what he needed to do if he was going to be an NHL player. He took it to heart and did the work. If players like Wennberg, Bjorkstrand, and Milano haven't figured it out yet their time window is running out. I don't care if Duclair is on pace for 30 goals. If he is on the ice for 35 goals against we have real problems. This team has real defensive issues that must be addressed.

 

[Crede777]

See, this is just you getting "corrected" on what was said, get called out on it, not be able to admit you are wrong, then twist multiple peoples words into you being right.

Crede says, Foligno says that its the players fault NOT the coaches, then you choose "different" comments after a different game that essentially say the same thing. However, it doesn't "add up" or go along with YOUR theory. So you take the words "we need to figure it out ourselves" and interpret it as, "You cant help us Torts, so we'll figure it out"...and that his voice doesn't carry any weight to the team and that's he's lost the room.

He and I were thinking of different interviews.

Jones essentially told Torts to back off of Werenski last year. This isn't an uncommon occurrence and can even be a good thing for the team.

It also brings up the issue of over-coaching. Coaches have to walk a fine line between giving directions and advice versus overwhelming players with too much input and pressure. Duclair came to Columbus because he wanted Torts to coach him. Maybe he can handle increased demands from the coaches. Wennberg on the other hand may be more fragile. Maybe he can't handle the kind of demands that the coaches put on Savard a few years ago. Who knows.

 

[EspenK]

Not calling for him to be fired just using this thread for discussion.

Is Torts the right coach for the Jackets?

They score a lot of goals but to me they still don't have a great offensive scheme.

The power play has sucked for a long time although recently it has shown signs of life.

Offensively talented players like Bjorkstrand, Duclair, Milano seem to not get adequate ice time.

The team plays in spurts. The effort they expend is inconsistent from period to period and even game to game.

Ice time is skewed among players.

Wennberg has regressed to the point of not being able to beat out Riley Nash for a spot on the 4th line.

Line consistency is better than in the past but starting lines are (too) quick to be jumbled.

Safe is death doesn't seem to be totally effective leading to lots of odd man rushes.

In game adjustments or playing differently depending on the opponent is beyond my grasp. He doesn't seem to do either of these.

How he blends Duchene & Dzingel into the lineup and how he gets this team ready for the stretch drive will go a long way in my mind as to how good a coach he is.

Right now I have to believe the Jackets are positioned where they are due more to the ability of the players rather than any great coaching. In fact with better coaching they , very likely, be higher in the standings.

Thoughts?

 

[Monk]

Not calling for him to be fired just using this thread for discussion.

Is Torts the right coach for the Jackets?

They score a lot of goals but to me they still don't have a great offensive scheme.

The power play has sucked for a long time although recently it has shown signs of life.

Offensively talented players like Bjorkstrand, Duclair, Milano seem to not get adequate ice time.

The team plays in spurts. The effort they expend is inconsistent from period to period and even game to game.

Ice time is skewed among players.

Wennberg has regressed to the point of not being able to beat out Riley Nash for a spot on the 4th line.

Line consistency is better than in the past but starting lines are (too) quick to be jumbled.

Safe is death doesn't seem to be totally effective leading to lots of odd man rushes.

In game adjustments or playing differently depending on the opponent is beyond my grasp. He doesn't seem to do either of these.

How he blends Duchene & Dzingel into the lineup and how he gets this team ready for the stretch drive will go a long way in my mind as to how good a coach he is.

Right now I have to believe the Jackets are positioned where they are due more to the ability of the players rather than any great coaching. In fact with better coaching they , very likely, be higher in the standings.

Thoughts?

I agree with some of this, disagree with some of this. But to answer your question, I think Torts has been the right coach for the Jackets, and I'm with you that the bolded will largely inform my opinion moving forward.

 

[Ice9]

Torts is a good coach but I just wonder is he a good coach for today's players. These guys aren't the workhorses and big hods of his earlier years. They're more pampered and demanding and not wired for his methods.
I'd have loved to play for him in my day.
I just dont think 20 year olds give a rat's butt about authoritative figures and therefore tune him out fairly quickly. Obviously there are exceptions but overall these kids mock authority.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Come on, everyone, give him some ti---FIRE TORTS!!!

 

[majormajor]

Ice time is skewed among players.

Safe is death doesn't seem to be totally effective leading to lots of odd man rushes.

In game adjustments or playing differently depending on the opponent is beyond my grasp. He doesn't seem to do either of these.

These three are the substantive issues at the moment, I think.

His only in game adjustment is to just play Panarin more, until his legs fall off.

We lost more than a couple games to "safe is death" this year. Far too many goals against on the rush.

----------------------

I would not blame Torts for the struggle of any individual player.

And I don't think the Jackets are too much "will over skill". It's a very skilled team, well above average, but we should never count on using that to beat the top teams in the league. The Jackets have to play off of their unique traits, which is largely the heavy forecheck and the speedy D-men. The problem last game against the Pens was that they didn't do that, they just went skill on skill with little forecheck, and didn't make the plays. Torts was right about that. The basic approach is not a problem, I think he understands the team. The secondary adjustments are just absent though.

I'd be happier with Coach Shaw, but don't think Torts is the worst either. I've been in that boat for a long time. I don't think the FO agrees.

 

[EspenK]

And I don't think the Jackets are too much "will over skill". It's a very skilled team, well above average, but we should never count on using that to beat the top teams in the league. The Jackets have to play off of their unique traits, which is largely the heavy forecheck and the speedy D-men. The problem last game against the Pens was that they didn't do that, they just went skill on skill with little forecheck, and didn't make the plays. Torts was right about that. The basic approach is not a problem, I think he understands the team. The secondary adjustments are just absent though.

To me the bolded is a bit contradictory. If they are a very skilled team I would think their lack of forechecking could be overcome by the skill level. I just think their skill level is wasted by the "I don't teach offense" approach.

 

[majormajor]

To me the bolded is a bit contradictory. If they are a very skilled team I would think their lack of forechecking could be overcome by the skill level. I just think their skill level is wasted by the "I don't teach offense" approach.

The skill - physicality distinction is so annoying. They're not necessarily opposites. There's a distinction between east-west and north-south, there's differences in zone entries and the propensity to dump the puck in. But it's an annoying debate because high skill teams also rely on building offense off of the forecheck.

I think the Jackets can win games on less physical skill. Last game wasn't as one-sided as the score suggested - bounces and goaltending, as usual, were the big swing factors.

But playing that way gives the Jackets maybe even odds, even against a depleted Penguins team. That's not enough. They really ought to be beating the Pens by now, the lineup is deeper at every position. I think the way to do that is to use the club's advantages, particularly the heavy forecheck that keeps opponents on their heels. That requires cutting down on turnover risk in the neutral zone and being a bit boring there, so okay not a skilled approach in that part of the rink. But once the Jackets get possession in the offensive end of the rink they have plenty of scope to use skill from there.