The Expansion Debate

[garry1221]

IF we take HD5000's view and bring in winnipeg and KC, i'd have the divisions set up like the following

NorthWest:
Calgary
Edmonton
Vancouver
Winnipeg

Pacific:
Anaheim
Los Angeles
Phoenix
San Jose

MidWest:
Colorado
Dallas
Kansas City
Minnesota

Central:
Chicago
Columbus
Detroit
St. Louis

North:
Buffalo
Montreal
Ottawa
Toronto

NorthEast:
Boston
NJ
NYI
NYR

Atlantic:
Carolina
Philidelphia
Pittsburgh
Washington

SouthEast:
Atlanta
Florida
Nashville
Tampa Bay

I chose to move nashville to the east because of the way i broke the western conference down. using HD5000's two potential teams it made it a little difficult since they're both in the west. Ideally we'll have one eastern conf team come in as well as one western conf team. it'll be so much easier to reconfigure.

the hardest time i had was asking chicago or st louis for the midwest division. i could have gone either way, but chose to keep chicago and detroit in the same division with the orig. 6 roots

 

[HansH]

Ok, first off there are 2 WHL teams in the Seattle area, the Seattle Thunderbirds and the Everett Silvertips.

I couldn’t find current official attendance figures, so I did a little number crunching…

Everett Silvertips (2003-04)
- 230,000 fans (as reported)
- capacity is 8,500 (as reported)
- works out avg. of 6,389 fans per game – 75.2% capacity

http://www.everetteventscenter.com/MainArena.ashx?p=2

Seattle Thunderbirds (season unknown, but info © 2006)
- 175,000 fans (as reported)
- capacity is 6,324
- works out avg. of 4,861 fans per game – 76.7% capacity

http://www.downtownseattle.com/content/businesses/Arts.cfm

Note
Key Arena has a curtain over the upper bowl, so full capacity for hockey is 15,177, meaning that the Thunderbirds only are at 32.0% capacity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KeyArena

It's not official, but I use the stats as announced on the leagues' websites as the source for my own Hockey Attendance Website -- so far, for the current season here are the numbers for Seattle and Everett:

Everett (#5 in WHL): 154,055 (26 games) -- 5,925.2 (down 3.7% from this point last year)

Seattle (#12 in WHL): 86,060 (22 games) -- 3,911.8 (down 8.1% from this point last year)

 

[mas0764]

I say NO WAY to expansion.

I would like to see a team in Seattle maybe, but relocate someone there.

 

[Jazz]

I would hope that atleast part of those expansion fees go towards growing the game of hockey internationally, especially in countries where there is room for growth. Such a move, would only improve the product of NHL hockey in the long run.

While I agree with this 100%, the NHL will be more short-sighted..

 

[Emerald City Bruin]

Ok, first off there are 2 WHL teams in the Seattle area, the Seattle Thunderbirds and the Everett Silvertips.

I couldn’t find current official attendance figures, so I did a little number crunching…

Everett Silvertips (2003-04)
- 230,000 fans (as reported)
- capacity is 8,500 (as reported)
- works out avg. of 6,389 fans per game – 75.2% capacity

http://www.everetteventscenter.com/MainArena.ashx?p=2

Seattle Thunderbirds (season unknown, but info © 2006)
- 175,000 fans (as reported)
- capacity is 6,324
- works out avg. of 4,861 fans per game – 76.7% capacity

http://www.downtownseattle.com/content/businesses/Arts.cfm

Note
Key Arena has a curtain over the upper bowl, so full capacity for hockey is 15,177, meaning that the Thunderbirds only are at 32.0% capacity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KeyArena

Actually, the capacity for Key Arena, configured for hockey, is 11,000 give or take a few seats. It's a horseshoe for hockey and therefore doesn't utilize all the seats in the building.

 

[Hartford HockeyFan]

Winnipeg
Quebec City
Houston
Portland
Kansas City
Hartford
Salt Lake City
Oklahoma City
Seattle
Halifax

Teams with a very strong chance of getting and NHL franchise and why: Winnipeg because they have a minor league team and are in full support of them. They have a brand new arena that was built, and if needed they could renovate it to fit NHL size crowds.
Kansas City: They have plans for a new arena being built and the fans and the state want an NHL team. They also had a team way back when called the KC Scouts, now the NJ Devils.
Houston: They currently have an AHL team and have an arena built in the form of the Toyoyta Center. Hockey in the AHL has flourished since the return of the AHL and a team. Fans could support an NHL team again.
Quebec City: They had the Nordiques and could support another team. They would need to build a new arena I believe, but the fan support would be there if they ever could get a team back.

Teams with no chance: Hartford, Salt Lake City, Oklahoma City, Seattle, Halifax. Most of these cities have no chance of gaining an NHL team ever. Hartford had a team and well it didnt work. The fans sucked and they were a losing franchise. The NHL would never go back to Hartford. The other cities dont follow hockey and are near the bottom in regards to gaining an NHL team.

 

[hockydude5000]

I did a little more research about expansion possibilities, and I found ten cities worthy of a franchise:

2010 expansion:
Hartford
Kansas City

2015 expansion:
Winnipeg
Houston

2020 expansion:
Portland
Quebec City

2025 expansion
Oklahoma City
Baltimore (when they get new arena)

2030 expansion:
Salt Lake City
Austin/Milwaukee/Hamilton (one of these cities)

 

[HansH]

I'll put money down that there will be no expansion for the NHL until at least 2015, and likely not even then.

 

[AdmiralPred]

I did a little more research about expansion possibilities, and I found ten cities worthy of a franchise:

2030 expansion:
Salt Lake City
Austin/Milwaukee/Hamilton (one of these cities)

Are you crazy! It's April 14th and it's over 80 degrees in Eastern WI, wayyyy to warm to deserve a NHL team!!11 By 2030 global warming will have taken hold to the point where nobody south of Hudson Bay will deserve a team.

 

[hockydude5000]

Are you crazy! It's April 14th and it's over 80 degrees in Eastern WI, wayyyy to warm to deserve a NHL team!!11 By 2030 global warming will have taken hold to the point where nobody south of Hudson Bay will deserve a team.

You know, arenas are chilled, right? Also, Milwaukee is north of the Mason-Dixon line, has a minor league team, a capable arena, and a population that can only grow. Since they are not high on the list, I put them in 2030 expansion, that should be long enough.

 

[OG6ix]

You know, arenas are chilled, right? Also, Milwaukee is north of the Mason-Dixon line, has a minor league team, a capable arena, and a population that can only grow. Since they are not high on the list, I put them in 2030 expansion, that should be long enough.

he or she was being sarcastic, I am guessing.

 

[CaptBrannigan]

Kinda off-topic, but I have a question: Why is Winnipeg always mentioned and not Quebec City? I know nothing about the cities or arenas, I just find it interesting that they both lost their teams at about the same time but I only ever see Winnipeg brought up for new teams/relocation, and rarely see Quebec City in the same context.

 

[GKJ]

Did I just read that 'the fans sucked in Hartford'?



Way wrong answer.

 

[GWhale*]

Did I just read that 'the fans sucked in Hartford'?



Way wrong answer.

Thank you!!

 

[Whalerfan11]

I think there should be another team in New England. There are 2 in Florida. Why not two in the hockey hotbed of New England!?

In other words...Bring Back The Whale!!!

 

[TexasOiler]

I did a little more research about expansion possibilities, and I found ten cities worthy of a franchise:

2010 expansion:
Hartford
Kansas City

2015 expansion:
Winnipeg
Houston

2020 expansion:
Portland
Quebec City

2025 expansion
Oklahoma City
Baltimore (when they get new arena)

2030 expansion:
Salt Lake City
Austin/Milwaukee/Hamilton (one of these cities)

Not going to happen. For a variety of reasons.

 

[Shootmaster_44]

Since everyone seems set that the NHL will not expand for a longtime. Let's say someone were to set up a new WHA-type league (someone who knows what they're doing, not the clowns from during the lockout). Hypothetically, this league has enough NHL players signed to make it a legitimate rival to the NHL, not a glorified AHL or other level minor league. What cities should be in this, let's start conservatively with 10-16 teams? The only condition is these cities have to be non-NHL.

I'd say:
Central Division
Grand Forks, ND
Omaha, NE
Saskatoon, SK
Winnipeg, MB

East Division
Halifax, NS
Hamilton, ON
Hartford, CT
Quebec City, PQ

South Division
Kansas City, MO
Houston, TX
New Orleans, LA
Oklahoma City, OK

West Division
Las Vegas, NV
Portland, OR
San Diego, CA
Seattle, WA

 

[shawnmullin]

Lets get our teams sorted out before we even consider something like this. Goodness I can't believe this thread exists.

There are several teams still in financial trouble in this league before we even think about expanding the game.

For those of you who know the Hamilton situation, though. What's the state of Copps, can it be expanded? Because the more I hear about a second team in the GTA the more it makes sense. Hamilton isn't in the GTA obviously, but it's close and all ready has an arena built. If they could expland it somewhat...

The other idea of just building another arena in Toronto for a second NHL team is frankly really interesting. I mean, does anyone think there'd be a problem supporting another NHL team in Toronto? I think it's the only slam dunk possibility for another franchise. Of course you'd have to get MLSE to give in on the idea.

 

[hockydude5000]

Not going to happen. For a variety of reasons.

I put it in 2030 expansion, and during that time, I would put an AHL team there to grow the market. See, since many other Leagues are looking at San Antonio for their next franchise, why not go to the untapped market of Austin? By 2030, they should have time to build a new arena. Also, my plans are far down in the future, and therefore is plausible. Also, I might add that in my expansion plans, only two cities (and a third optional) are located south of the Mason-Dixon line, and all are untapped markets.

 

[AdmiralPred]

Are you crazy! It's April 14th and it's over 80 degrees in Eastern WI, wayyyy to warm to deserve a NHL team!!11 By 2030 global warming will have taken hold to the point where nobody south of Hudson Bay will deserve a team.

You know, arenas are chilled, right? Also, Milwaukee is north of the Mason-Dixon line, has a minor league team, a capable arena, and a population that can only grow. Since they are not high on the list, I put them in 2030 expansion, that should be long enough.

Whoa, I thought the "south of Hudson Bay" comment would've tripped any sarcasm meter out there. Sorry to mislead.

Anyway, at the current rate, Milwaukee proper's population (trending downward since the 70's or 80's) may shrink to the point where Madison might be challenging them as Wisconsin's largest city by 2030. I'm not being sarcastic either - it is a bit of a stretch - but no sarcasm. Although, much of Milwaukee's population is leaving the immediate area for counties to the North and West.

 

[hockydude5000]

Whoa, I thought the "south of Hudson Bay" comment would've tripped any sarcasm meter out there. Sorry to mislead.

Anyway, at the current rate, Milwaukee proper's population (trending downward since the 70's or 80's) may shrink to the point where Madison might be challenging them as Wisconsin's largest city by 2030. I'm not being sarcastic either - it is a bit of a stretch - but no sarcasm. Although, much of Milwaukee's population is leaving the immediate area for counties to the North and West.

If that's so, I would start by putting an AHL team in Madison, wait for it to grow, then I would see which city will be the second city of my 2030 expansion.

 

[TexasOiler]

I put it in 2030 expansion, and during that time, I would put an AHL team there to grow the market. See, since many other Leagues are looking at San Antonio for their next franchise, why not go to the untapped market of Austin? By 2030, they should have time to build a new arena. Also, my plans are far down in the future, and therefore is plausible. Also, I might add that in my expansion plans, only two cities (and a third optional) are located south of the Mason-Dixon line, and all are untapped markets.

"Untapped" is misleading, though. There is no equivalent to the Longhorns in San Antonio. Also: real attendance for the Ice Bats is about 1500 per game.

24 years is a long time, and Austin is a rich city that is growing like mad, but that still places Austin in the longshot category at best.

 

[jamiebez]

Kinda off-topic, but I have a question: Why is Winnipeg always mentioned and not Quebec City? I know nothing about the cities or arenas, I just find it interesting that they both lost their teams at about the same time but I only ever see Winnipeg brought up for new teams/relocation, and rarely see Quebec City in the same context.

No new arena (yet) in QC. I've heard that the recently-elected mayor came out against the use of any public funds to build a new one, although someone closer to the situation can elaborate more, I'm sure.

Winnipeg has a brand-new arena, albeit somewhat undersized by the current NHL standards.

 

[AdmiralPred]

If that's so, I would start by putting an AHL team in Madison, wait for it to grow, then I would see which city will be the second city of my 2030 expansion.

Why would you put one there? I think of the sports fans in and around Madison are more focused on the college teams, it's just me, but I really wouldn't think of an AHL team lasting too long there.

And, what does the Mason-Dixon Line have to do with franchise location?

 

[hockydude5000]

doesn't mean much, but some people think there shouldn't be anymore teams south of the Mason-Dixon line (though I disagree with it). It is to make sure the anti-south and anti-expansion crowd doesn't rant and complain on me, if you get the point. I made the second city of my 2030 expansion random, and it can be anything from Las Vegas to Hamilton.