The exact criteria for old-NHL protection lists

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Re: The infamous mistake by the leafs to not acquire Bobby Orrs rights in 1960,

The story was that Orrs minor association wrote directly to Imlach regarding Orr when he was 12. Imlach passed the note on to his head scout Bob Davidson, and Davidson responded saying that Orr was "Too young to be put on any list for protection". Orr signed his card with the Bruins 2 years later at 14.

Was there an actual minimum age limit to the sponsorship system? What exactly was the barrier to teams simply looking at entire teams of tyke-age players and snapping them all up preemptively to catch whichever players did mature into NHL talents?

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[tarheelhockey]

Re: The infamous mistake by the leafs to not acquire Bobby Orrs rights in 1960,

The story was that Orrs minor association wrote directly to Imlach regarding Orr when he was 12. Imlach passed the note on to his head scout Bob Davidson, and Davidson responded saying that Orr was "Too young to be put on any list for protection". Orr signed his card with the Bruins 2 years later at 14.

Was there an actual minimum age limit to the sponsorship system? What exactly was the barrier to teams simply looking at entire teams of tyke-age players and snapping them all up preemptively to catch whichever players did mature into NHL talents?

The short answer to your question: a player could sign a C-form at age 18, but his parents could sign on his behalf at age 14. That's why Wren Blair showed up at the Orr household practically before the candles were cold on Bobby's 14th birthday cake.

A more generalized thing to keep in mind about the practical limits of the sponsorship system: the NHL clubs' protection list was restricted to 18 players per sponsored organization, and the junior rosters were subject to league and CAHA age limits. So, even beyond the C-form rules, there was a practical limitation on which players could be available for protection.

"Could an NHL team have negotiated a sponsorship agreement with a mite team?" is a fun hypothetical, but realistically CAHA and pretty much everyone else would have objected.

 

[BadgerBruce]

The short answer to your question: a player could sign a C-form at age 18, but his parents could sign on his behalf at age 14. That's why Wren Blair showed up at the Orr household practically before the candles were cold on Bobby's 14th birthday cake.

A more generalized thing to keep in mind about the practical limits of the sponsorship system: the NHL clubs' protection list was restricted to 18 players per sponsored organization, and the junior rosters were subject to league and CAHA age limits. So, even beyond the C-form rules, there was a practical limitation on which players could be available for protection.

"Could an NHL team have negotiated a sponsorship agreement with a mite team?" is a fun hypothetical, but realistically CAHA and pretty much everyone else would have objected.

This is an accurate description of the system (Frank Selke Sr’s brainchild).

However, there were some additional wrinkles. For instance, an NHL-sponsored junior A team could sponsor junior B teams, and junior B teams could sponsor both juvenile and midget teams. Further, minor pro NHL affiliates could also sponsor teams. I’d need to look for the link, but I distinctly recall reading an article that untangled the entire web of Montreal Canadiens sponsorships during the peak of the system, with somewhere in the neighbourhood of 10,000 players coast to coast being essentially controlled by the Habs.

And while the very idea of an NHL club sponsoring a mite team is laughable, Bobby Orr’s deal with the Bruins required that organization to sponsor the entire (and fledgling) Parry Sound Minor Hockey Association for a fixed number of years (2 or 3 — memory fails me).

 

[tarheelhockey]

And while the very idea of an NHL club sponsoring a mite team is laughable, Bobby Orr’s deal with the Bruins required that organization to sponsor the entire (and fledgling) Parry Sound Minor Hockey Association for a fixed number of years (2 or 3 — memory fails me).

As I understand it, the Bruins sponsored the Parry Sound league for a couple of years before Bobby signed with them, as a show of good faith to the Orr family. We're not talking big money, but it was enough to keep the kids equipped and create a connection with the community.

Of course, Bobby Orr was a one-of-a-kind prospect who warranted that sort of attention. Attempting to do anything like this on a large scale would have been incredibly inefficient... the costs of recruiting a player would quickly surpass the player's actual earnings if he made the NHL. I'm sure the owners were happy to keep that money and take their chances.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

The short answer to your question: a player could sign a C-form at age 18, but his parents could sign on his behalf at age 14. That's why Wren Blair showed up at the Orr household practically before the candles were cold on Bobby's 14th birthday cake.

A more generalized thing to keep in mind about the practical limits of the sponsorship system: the NHL clubs' protection list was restricted to 18 players per sponsored organization, and the junior rosters were subject to league and CAHA age limits. So, even beyond the C-form rules, there was a practical limitation on which players could be available for protection.

"Could an NHL team have negotiated a sponsorship agreement with a mite team?" is a fun hypothetical, but realistically CAHA and pretty much everyone else would have objected.

This helps to shine a different light on the story, funny how another commonly repeated "LOL incompetent Leafs Amirite" story turns out to be an unfair angle since Imlach literally couldnt protect Orr at that stage, although they still made an enormous mistake by not being waiting at the Orrs door when he turned 14 along with the Bruins

This is an accurate description of the system (Frank Selke Sr’s brainchild).

However, there were some additional wrinkles. For instance, an NHL-sponsored junior A team could sponsor junior B teams, and junior B teams could sponsor both juvenile and midget teams. Further, minor pro NHL affiliates could also sponsor teams. I’d need to look for the link, but I distinctly recall reading an article that untangled the entire web of Montreal Canadiens sponsorships during the peak of the system, with somewhere in the neighbourhood of 10,000 players coast to coast being essentially controlled by the Habs.

And while the very idea of an NHL club sponsoring a mite team is laughable, Bobby Orr’s deal with the Bruins required that organization to sponsor the entire (and fledgling) Parry Sound Minor Hockey Association for a fixed number of years (2 or 3 — memory fails me).

Yeah, I think I recall reading in a thread on here that was basically one of the reasons for the end of the sponsorship system. Selke Jr took over the Canadiens in 1946 and overhauled the broken financial system of the Forum, then started a 20 year process of sponsoring half of the player development systems in NA, well ahead of the other teams. They had such an enormous lead I half wonder if there wasnt some sort of quiet handshake agreement to turn a blind eye to certain prospects like Bobby Hull for the sake of competitive balance in the league

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

It doesnt seem like my impression of the Canadiens being the only O6 team with significant affilate infrastructure was true:

Chicago Blackhawks Minor League Affiliate History at hockeydb.com
New York Rangers Minor League Affiliate History at hockeydb.com
Boston Bruins Minor League Affiliate History at hockeydb.com
Detroit Red Wings Minor League Affiliate History at hockeydb.com
Montreal Canadiens Minor League Affiliate History at hockeydb.com
Toronto Maple Leafs Minor League Affiliate History at hockeydb.com

Although that only covers the professional affiliate level, not the junior levels.

I seem to recall there was a couple of high profile Junior-NHL team agreements

Guelph (Platers/Hatters?) => New York Rangers
St Catherines (Teepees?) => Blackhawks
? => Red Wings
? => Bruins
St Mikes Majors => Leafs
QC Remparts, MTL Jr Canadiens => Canadiens

Teh Wings and maybe Blackhawks were reported to have a bigger presence out west due to broadcasting rights making them the only team anybody could tune into in parts of the praries

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Oshawa Generals => Bruins

 

[BadgerBruce]

“Protected” or “Negotiation” lists in one form or another have existed in professional hockey for over 100 years, even longer in amateur hockey. Even the waiver system, if you think about it, has always been a mechanism allowing leagues to maintain “playing rights” of players.

In a formalized league bylaw sense, the NHL established negotiation lists in 1921. Percy Hambly, one of the Toronto St. Patricks’ owners, pitched the idea that each NHL club should be allowed to “reserve the services” of up to six amateur players each year. These lists were kept strictly confidential, never revealed to the public. Writing in Joining the Clubs, historian J. Andrew Ross suggests that these early protected lists probably didn’t work so well, largely because they were virtually unenforceable if a player decided to change leagues, which was common prior to consolidation. Later, agreements between leagues designed to limit player movement were signed, and this added some teeth to the lists.

All of this took place long before the sponsorship system and C-cards emerged.

The remnants of the NHL’s “secret negotiation list” system in the early-1920s can still be seen in today’s Canadian major junior hockey. The junior leagues allow teams to have 50-player protected lists, but the reality is that most clubs own the exclusive rights to at least 70 players (current season midget draft picks and Euros don’t count against the 50-player limit) and they all have the “right” to add any player not on someone’s else’s list whenever they want. One of my own kids was added to a club’s list years ago and they didn’t even tell him, which was bizarre. But given the age-restricted nature of junior hockey, controlling 70 players at any one time is more than a bit rich.