The English Lower League thread

[Shrimper]

Didn't expect that at all but it just shows how much better we are away from home. Got to be something to do with the pressure of the fans who constantly barrack the players and then wonder when they move elsewhere and do better. Won't be top for a while as the teams around us have games in hand and play tomorrow.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Disgusting officiating in Southampton/West Ham match. Not only did Probert not give two clear penalties, but the one he did give he managed to still send off Matty Taylor when Sharp acted like he was hit with an artillery round in the face. Could have gone four points clear.

 

[Shameus]

Huddersfield Town sacked Lee Clark and his entire staff today. Yes he has been linked with the Leeds job, but do you really sack a manager who only lost 3 of his last 55 games in charge? Including a 43 game unbeaten run. Something else has to be going on there.

 

[GabeTravels]

Portsmouth is headed back into administration.

Incredibly depressing and stressful past two years to be a Pompey fan. THANKFULLY, we have a new administrator now that will hopefully lead to a viable and stable owner.

The 10 point dock puts Pompey tied for 22nd in the table. At this point I don't know if it would be better for Pompey to stay up or get relegated to League 1. I think they can stay up, their form's been pretty good recently.

I can't ever watch highlights, though I usually catch a radio broadcast online. Anyone know of a place to watch Championship highlights every week?

 

[Shrimper]

Huge game against Crewe today. Win and we can hope that Cheltenham and Swindon lose away from home to put a gap at the top for their games in hand.

 

[Stray Wasp]

Even though it's old news, I think it absolutely vital that we commemorate the appointment of Colin Wan...I mean Neil Warnock as manager of Leeds United.

Leeds, remember, are run by Ken Bates. Memories of the early nineties, when Warnock had guided Notts County into the top flight and Bates was rumoured to want him for Chelsea manager. The story was that Warnock wasn't keen on moving to London, so he spurned the offer.

Surely having these two monstrous egos at the same club will turn out to be an absolute car crash. Hurray!

 

[Brodie]

It's tough because I do like Neil, but it's Leeds. Yikes.

 

[Johnnywhite]

Colin will likely get them promoted within two seasons, but that is when it should end. Championship is his level.

 

[AlanHUK]

forest finally won a game. mcleary scored a pretty nice goal too

 

[Stray Wasp]

So now we know what was afoot at Huddersfield-they've appointed Simon Grayson to replace Lee Clark. On the one hand, Grayson got Leeds promoted, on the other hand, Clark wasn't exactly doing a bad job.

Meanwhile, Keith Curle gets the Notts County job. This comes only days after John Barnes indignantly pointed out that there are only 2 black managers out of 92 in the English professional leagues. Barnes' conclusion was that English football must therefore be institutionally racist.

So by that simplistic formula, we can officially say that English football has become less racist than it was last week. Hurray!

 

[Chloraflora]

Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.... Ah we're God awful this year.

 

[kg458]

Meanwhile, Keith Curle gets the Notts County job. This comes only days after John Barnes indignantly pointed out that there are only 2 black managers out of 92 in the English professional leagues. Barnes' conclusion was that English football must therefore be institutionally racist.

So by that simplistic formula, we can officially say that English football has become less racist than it was last week. Hurray!

That stat is pretty remarkable. I'm kind of surprised you don't hear more about that (or maybe it's just you don't hear more about that in the states?).

 

[Stray Wasp]

That stat is pretty remarkable. I'm kind of surprised you don't hear more about that (or maybe it's just you don't hear more about that in the states?).

I wasn't aware of it until Barnes brought it up.

A cynic might say that the erstwhile lack of light shed on this matter was obeying the first law of journalism: "follow the money". Accusing fans of racism is one thing, because fans are worthless commoners. The people who own and run football clubs, however, tend to be wealthy and powerful and can afford top lawyers to sue anyone who calls them racist without cast iron proof. Or make angry calls to newspaper editors suggesting that an offending journalist be moved on.

John Barnes feels at liberty to talk about this because he has nothing to lose. He's a bad manager and as such no one will employ him again. Ironically, as far as I can recall Barnes himself employed white assistant managers at both Celtic (Terry McDermott and Eric Black) and Tranmere (Jason McAteer, a player whose dimwittedness was legend). Therefore, he either

a) didn't know anyone from an ethnic minority that he thought was good enough
b) couldn't find anyone good enough, available and affordable at that exact moment
c) discriminated against people from an ethnic minority

What we do know is that when someone else appoints a white guy to a job, John Barnes thinks it likely that the answer is c.

 

[Kimi]

That stat is pretty remarkable. I'm kind of surprised you don't hear more about that (or maybe it's just you don't hear more about that in the states?).

I have to lol at this kinda thing. It's only about 2% of the population that are black in the first place (the rest is something like 93% white, 4% south-asian, 1% other/mixed), so if there was more than a few black managers they would be over represented based on population numbers. But as a white male with no disability, illness or religion I risk getting hung for saying something like this xD.

 

[kg458]

If you had to take a guess what would you say the percentage of black players is in the English professional leagues?

Does the FA have any requirements similar to what the NFL does (in requiring at least one minority coach be interviewed for each position)? I know those type of rules are often trivialized by teams simply going through the motions with minority candidates, but at least it actually acknowledges that there is a problem.

I was having a hard time trying to think of what the US equivalent would be in terms of a league with a large minority (or majority, i'm not sure) of players are black, and yet the management positions are almost entirely white.

 

[kg458]

I have to lol at this kinda thing. It's only about 2% of the population that are black in the first place (the rest is something like 93% white, 4% south-asian, 1% other/mixed), so if there was more than a few black managers they would be over represented based on population numbers. But as a white male with no disability, illness or religion I risk getting hung for saying something like this xD.

I think a more worthwhile stat would be to see what the percentage of black professional footballers is, and I would wager it's a lot more than 2 or 3 percent.

Edit: I'm assuming you were referring to England with those population numbers instead of English footballers.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Swindon top of League 2 now, Paulo Di Canio doing a great job in his first ever managerial position, has provided some good entertainment too by being sent off the pitch numerous times

Joke from sickipedia:

"Paolo Di Canio is confirmed as Swindon Manager"
I expect we'll see most of their goals come from the right-wing next season...

 

[Kimi]

The numbers were for the UK; England it self is 88% white, 3% black, 6% south-asian, 3% other. Scotland is prob something like 99% white. Dunno about the other two.

I've never really paid attention to the ethnicities, nationality has always been the important bit. A black Englishman is as English as the white Englishman who's as English as the guy from Papua New Guinea, that grew up in Australia with Welsh parents. I think the EPL is something like 35~40% English players, but as you go down the pyramid you'll have a lot more Englishmen.

The number of black players currently playing isn't a good stat to use, number of black players playing 25+ years ago would be better to look at due being an old ex-footballer is normally a pre-requisit for a management job.

And the idea of needing a "must interview a minority" rule both hilarious and sad at the same time. But I've not really read up on the Rooney rule to see how well it went.

 

[Stray Wasp]

If you had to take a guess what would you say the percentage of black players is in the English professional leagues?

Does the FA have any requirements similar to what the NFL does (in requiring at least one minority coach be interviewed for each position)? I know those type of rules are often trivialized by teams simply going through the motions with minority candidates, but at least it actually acknowledges that there is a problem.

I was having a hard time trying to think of what the US equivalent would be in terms of a league with a large minority (or majority, i'm not sure) of players are black, and yet the management positions are almost entirely white.

The FA doesn't have any rules for positive discrimination, indeed Barnes himself scoffed at the idea of having a Rooney rule.

The trouble with comparing the percentage of contemporary black players to the number of black manages is that it doesn't compare fairly-the generation of current black players represent a future potential talent pool of black managers. Furthermore, you'd have to separate UK and Irish black players from the rest, since they are the ones most likely to pursue management careers in the Premier League...

...But Kimi beat me to the punch.

Note too that Chris Hughton, one of the three black managers in the league, played for the Republic of Ireland, so in pure footballing terms he's a foreigner (although if memory serves he was born in London). On the other hand, John Barnes got his first management job as a "foreigner" too by working in Scotland.

I'd say that structural and sporting differences make comparisons between the experience of coaching in the NFL and coaching in the Premier League unfruitful.

 

[Shrimper]

Lost against Alder**** on Tuesday.

Tough games against Morecambe and Burton coming up.

 

[kg458]

Yeah I won't sit here and argue that those types of rules are effective, because they pretty clearly are not. But my point was at least certain professional leagues have acknowledged that there is a problem with minority representation in managerial positions.

You both make a valid point in looking at footballing demographics from previous years, which I couldn't begin to speculate about. Anyway I was just curious. I guess I'm just used to seeing more of an outrage, rightly or wrongly, about that type of thing in the US.

 

[Chloraflora]

Let's just raise Keith Alexander from the grave, that'll make this argument go away. Right?

 

[Stray Wasp]

Let's just raise Keith Alexander from the grave, that'll make this argument go away. Right?

Alas, that would only provoke the National Association for the Advancement of Resurrected Caucasians to complain about the iniquities of affirmative action.

 

[Stray Wasp]

Yeah I won't sit here and argue that those types of rules are effective, because they pretty clearly are not. But my point was at least certain professional leagues have acknowledged that there is a problem with minority representation in managerial positions.

You both make a valid point in looking at footballing demographics from previous years, which I couldn't begin to speculate about. Anyway I was just curious. I guess I'm just used to seeing more of an outrage, rightly or wrongly, about that type of thing in the US.

No doubt that the small number of managers from ethnic minority communities is startling. Still, we must be careful about drawing melodramatic conslusions. It'd be interesting to contrast the number of players qualified to play for the Republic of Ireland with the number of managers from that country working in England. Certainly at EPL level there are plenty of the former and none of the latter.

Something to bear in mind about comparing English football and the NFL: the NFL is considered without rival as the foremost league in its sport. That isn't true of the EPL. An English football player or coach unable to get a break in their homeland could easily seek opportunities to prove their talent in a prestigious European league. In reality, this hardly ever happens. Meanwhile, plenty of non-English talent is able to flock to England and thrive. (The NFL doesn't have to fret about people from Abroadland taking the locals' jobs to the extent that the Professional Footballers' Association does in England). In European football there are so many avenues for talent to out, if that talent has perseverance.

Once you get a reputation for having talent, you're in clover. So many clubs are terrified that one bad season will leave their finances crippled (another difference from North America). Conseqeuently, the real prejudice in European football is in favour of the "experienced" over the untested-on and off the field.

The other matter to throw into the mix is what might be called the liberal-conservative divide in English football. This isn't predicated by race but by a person's stylistic beliefs about the game. There's a school of thought that English football tends to be unsophisticated, overly obsessed with athleticism over skill and tactical nous compared to many European rivals; that's a debate that has been going since the 1890s. Note that of the 19 current EPL managers (at the time of writing, Wolves are desperately running around the country leaving unsigned contracts on the doorstep of every practically unemployed manager that they can think of), only three are English anyway. It's possible that if a black manager suffers from prejudice, its a colourblind prejudice-that employers look upon him as just another dumb Englishman whose idea of coaching will be to yell "get stuck in" and utter the word "passion" a lot.

All of this creates a messy predicament for the League Managers' Association. On the one hand, they are trying to encourage clubs to show existing managers more patience (the typical manager gets fired far quicker than he used to), which means that they are bound to defend the 89-3 ethnic status quo up to a point; equally, the LMA want clubs to appoint less foreign coaches, which isn't legally possible given EU employment law (thanks to the quirks of English culture, the LMA forget that when it comes to football, Scots, Welshmen and anyone from the Ireland of Ireland are foreigners too); precisely how they can give special preference to coaches from ethnic minority backgrounds therefore remains to be seen.

Parenthetically, it's been a while since we had journalists wringing their hands about the lack of players from British Asian backgrounds in English football. So far, only one such fellow has ever scored in the EPL, namely Michael Chopra. He was born not in a city with a large British Asian population like Bradford; nor was he born in that sophisticated cosmopolitan paradise, London; Chopra scored his historic first EPL goal for Newcastle United and he was born in Newcastle upon Tyne-a city once described by a nitwit civil servant as being "hideously white". I'll let you take from that anecdote whatever you will about matters of race and social engineering in sport.

 

[GarretJoseph*]

No doubt that the small number of managers from ethnic minority communities is startling. Still, we must be careful about drawing melodramatic conslusions. It'd be interesting to contrast the number of players qualified to play for the Republic of Ireland with the number of managers from that country working in England. Certainly at EPL level there are plenty of the former and none of the latter.

Something to bear in mind about comparing English football and the NFL: the NFL is considered without rival as the foremost league in its sport. That isn't true of the EPL. An English football player or coach unable to get a break in their homeland could easily seek opportunities to prove their talent in a prestigious European league. In reality, this hardly ever happens. Meanwhile, plenty of non-English talent is able to flock to England and thrive. (The NFL doesn't have to fret about people from Abroadland taking the locals' jobs to the extent that the Professional Footballers' Association does in England). In European football there are so many avenues for talent to out, if that talent has perseverance.

Once you get a reputation for having talent, you're in clover. So many clubs are terrified that one bad season will leave their finances crippled (another difference from North America). Conseqeuently, the real prejudice in European football is in favour of the "experienced" over the untested-on and off the field.

The other matter to throw into the mix is what might be called the liberal-conservative divide in English football. This isn't predicated by race but by a person's stylistic beliefs about the game. There's a school of thought that English football tends to be unsophisticated, overly obsessed with athleticism over skill and tactical nous compared to many European rivals; that's a debate that has been going since the 1890s. Note that of the 19 current EPL managers (at the time of writing, Wolves are desperately running around the country leaving unsigned contracts on the doorstep of every practically unemployed manager that they can think of), only three are English anyway. It's possible that if a black manager suffers from prejudice, its a colourblind prejudice-that employers look upon him as just another dumb Englishman whose idea of coaching will be to yell "get stuck in" and utter the word "passion" a lot.

All of this creates a messy predicament for the League Managers' Association. On the one hand, they are trying to encourage clubs to show existing managers more patience (the typical manager gets fired far quicker than he used to), which means that they are bound to defend the 89-3 ethnic status quo up to a point; equally, the LMA want clubs to appoint less foreign coaches, which isn't legally possible given EU employment law (thanks to the quirks of English culture, the LMA forget that when it comes to football, Scots, Welshmen and anyone from the Ireland of Ireland are foreigners too); precisely how they can give special preference to coaches from ethnic minority backgrounds therefore remains to be seen.

Parenthetically, it's been a while since we had journalists wringing their hands about the lack of players from British Asian backgrounds in English football. So far, only one such fellow has ever scored in the EPL, namely Michael Chopra. He was born not in a city with a large British Asian population like Bradford; nor was he born in that sophisticated cosmopolitan paradise, London; Chopra scored his historic first EPL goal for Newcastle United and he was born in Newcastle upon Tyne-a city once described by a nitwit civil servant as being "hideously white". I'll let you take from that anecdote whatever you will about matters of race and social engineering in sport.

Excellent post.